Echoing Fury Fear Proc - SoJ and Cold damage experiments

  • #1
    Hi,

    Looking for some advice & clarification please for a typical WW barb spec. I have been saving up for a couple of weeks with intention of purchasing an echoing Fury. I only have 150M ish to spend so cant afford top drawer (CHD or Lifesteal etc) but there seems to be some decent 1200dps with socket/str versions available within my price range. Might even be able to get some vit or attack speed within budget too.

    I want to use EF in main hand as I like to try and keep my dagger in OH which gives me the high attack speed (fury regen) I am after.... I was very concerned that I would hate the Fear Proc though so have been doing some reading and experimenting which has raised a few questions....

    I read that Stone of Jordan (with cold damage) or an offhand with cold dmg largely negates effects of EF even when used on MH. My existing dagger already has cold damage. So I then went and bought a cheap EF (Socket, 1000 dps, 150str, for $5M) and also a SoJ with 5% cold damage for $5M as well. I purposely bought a high fear EF for testing purposes @ 19.5%)

    So here's the thing after playing around with different configurations for an hour or so;
    An EF in main hand and my dagger with cold damage still results in annoying fear procs.
    Equipping both a Stone of Jordan AND the cold damage dagger seems to work way better and the fear proc is very manageable.
    The SoJ on its own seems to work significantly better than the cold dmg dagger?
    Also, when I have the SoJ equipped - the cold damage is very noticeable - i.e. monsters seem to freeze and there is often lots of ice around after they die?? I don't notice this when I have only the cold damage dagger equipped.
    Also, the SoJ states "+5% cold damage" - I assume this adds 5% of black damage as cold damage?

    Any help with understanding the mechanics would be much appreciated!
    http://us.battle.net...ile/Pixie-6127/
  • #2
    cuz ur dagger deals cold damage, while the soj is +% to cold damage
    so assuming ur using whirlwind, the damage on the offhand is ignored completely, afaik anyway
    the North Pacific Salmon
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    And we'll ride... the rails, with our pistols drawn
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  • #3

    cuz ur dagger deals cold damage, while the soj is +% to cold damage
    so assuming ur using whirlwind, the damage on the offhand is ignored completely, afaik anyway


    Pretty much this I think; the damage dealt by the dagger would be cold, but WW negates the offhand (run with the wind doesn't), and the SoJ adds proportional cold damage based on your total damage output, thus "procs" on every attack.
  • #4

    cuz ur dagger deals cold damage, while the soj is +% to cold damage
    so assuming ur using whirlwind, the damage on the offhand is ignored completely, afaik anyway


    I'm not so sure....but could well be wrong. All of this is difficult to measure empirically, but the effects seem to be additive. I "seem" to be getting a "slow" effect with just the cold dagger equipped. I "seem" to be getting a more pronounced slowing effect with BOTH SoJ and cold dagger equipped. If i had to guess, it seems that the SoJ on its own has more of a slow effect than the cold dagger on its own??
    I definitely get lots of telltale signs of cold damage (ice cubes on the ground!) when I have the SoJ equipped....

    Another forumite has suggested using a Buritza on my follower - so I might experiment with that as well. Keen to get a good understanding of this all before I drop $150M on a EF...

    thanks
  • #5
    Pretty much this I think; the damage dealt by the dagger would be cold, but WW negates the offhand (run with the wind doesn't), and the SoJ adds proportional cold damage based on your total damage output, thus "procs" on every attack.


    Sorry - responded before I seen your reply. So what you are saying is that I am noticing the cold effects of the SoJ way more often because it is proc'ing way more often? That might imply that an offhand cold damage weapon is in fact not such a great offset to the Fear proc? (which is what my testing was seeming to suggest!)

    Does it make sense to you that I seem to be getting an additive effect when using both?
  • #6

    Pretty much this I think; the damage dealt by the dagger would be cold, but WW negates the offhand (run with the wind doesn't), and the SoJ adds proportional cold damage based on your total damage output, thus "procs" on every attack.


    I am pretty sure its the other way around, WW alternates between both weapons, but the sprint tornados only use the main hand. But since they are your main damage source anyway, and the mobs stay in the tornados way longer than being affected by WW, it just reinforces the argument: SoJ adds cold damage to both weapons, while the dagger only applies cold when it hits, not when EF hits, which would be only 50% of WW hits and none of the sprint tornado ticks.
  • #7
    Like I mentioned in the other thread, try equipping your scoundrel with a Buriza-Do Kyanon with as close to 15% freeze chance/80% pierce as you can afford and a star of azkaranth with freeze and AS if you can find one. (use crippling shot and multi shot as skills) also low proc rate on the EF is a must, I went from a 14% to a 10.8% and the difference is very noticeable.

    I also tested the cold SOJ and i found the scoundrel setup to be much better for solo play and let's you maximize your dps but the Cold SOJ is the only real option for co-op games.
  • #8
    Ww uses ias and probably fear procs and other stats of last weapon swung... Or is this Only for aps?
  • #9
    1. Sprint RLTW uses MH weapon for damage but your tornadoes may tick at either MH or OH frequency, depending on which weapon was swung last before initiating RLTW.
    2. WW alternates MH and OH for damage and ticks at the weapon frequency you were about to swing with before initiating WW (applies for the whole duration of the channeling).

    read my sig or http://us.battle.net...opic/6037344497

    3. Stone of Jordan cold damage is applied to the physical (non-elemental) part of the weapon damage but the determing factor of which element will be used is highest elemental damage.

    http://www.diablofan...l/#entry1081786

    Basically on your Echoing Fury which is pure physical damage (non elemental), you´ll get the full benefit of the "adds 5-6% to cold damage" affix and it´ll always have the cold damage effect (not that I´m using the term "effect" because it doesn´t turn all your damage to cold - you´ll do physical + cold). On a +261-621 lightning damage weapon the SoJ is still applied but only on the base weapon damage that´s physical (including +min/max damage on jewelry) but the effect of the weapon is lightning because the lightning damage is higher than the cold damage.

    Example 100-150 base weapon damage +261-621 lightning damage, 6% cold SoJ
    The weapon will do 100-150 physical damage, ((100-150) * 0.06)) = 6-9 cold damage and 261-621 lightning damage. The effect is lightning because it´s the highest elemental damage of the weapon.


    tl;dr basic rules of thumb - pure physical damage weapon (non elemental) with a cold SoJ will have the cold damage effect, elemental weapons will have their elemental effect but the cold damage is still applied (only on the physical part of the weapon damage). Highest elemental damage determines the weapon´s effect.

    Different skills use different weapons to deal damage. RLTW, Rend, Ground Stomp use the MH to deal damage only, WT, Bash, WW, Frenzy, HotA, Cleave use both weapons to deal damage.

    As for the EF fear proc, equipping it in the MH means all skills will have a chance to proc it, equipping it in the OH means only skills that alternate weapons will have a chance to proc it.
  • #10
    thanks for the replies guys.

    @richtko - yes, I'll have a go with scoundrel over next few days - although I haven't used him since about character level 10 as I found his voice annoying :P. Also, have been reluctant to give up 3%IAS from enchantress.

    @Nutbro - thanks for your response. By the way, I have learnt a hell of a lot from your tick frequency research, and the breakpoints are a big part of the reason I am going down this path - I am planning on getting to attack speeds of 2.5/2.857 and 2.857/3.333 with WOTB up. The extra tick frequency makes fury management SO much easier.... Thanks again for all your brilliant work.

    Your response has also cleared up a couple of things for me - especially why I don't see the cold dmg effects which is being overruled by lightning dmg in terms of animation at least.

    Do you happen to know if cold damage actually scales? i.e. are we supposed to see more of a slowing effect with higher cold damage? I might be imagining it, but it seems that the monsters are actually slower with both dagger and SoJ equipped than when just the dagger or just the SoJ is equipped. It also seems that SoJ works better than the cold dmg dagger, but again I may be imagining it.
  • #11

    tl;dr basic rules of thumb - pure physical damage weapon (non elemental) with a cold SoJ will have the cold damage effect, elemental weapons will have their elemental effect but the cold damage is still applied (only on the physical part of the weapon damage). Highest elemental damage determines the weapon´s effect.


    By the bolded part you mean just the visual effect, right? Or do you mean they aren't slowed by the cold damage? Because my mainhand has holy damage and I see that visual effect a lot, but it also feels like it is still slowing the mobs. I havn't tested this extensively though.
  • #12

    cuz ur dagger deals cold damage, while the soj is +% to cold damage
    so assuming ur using whirlwind, the damage on the offhand is ignored completely, afaik anyway


    My understanding is %elemental damage is added to its own elemental damage type and also all physical damage on a weapon. The echoing fury is all physical dmg and I think it would do cold dmg regardless of what OH you have.
  • #13
    dont get an ef. u will hate it and so will every person who does a run with u.
    i have a buddy who rocks one and i flat out told him i will not do a single run with him if he uses it. infact, i handed him my main hand axe to use and dropped my dps by 30k just so i wouldnt have to deal iwht his ef. ur "paperdoll" dps may be higher, but ur effective dps is so stupidly low because of ur lack of fury and the lack of mobs ur hitting every second because they run everywhere
  • #14
    The reason that your seeing a more noticeable slow effect with the cold dagger is that ww is 1/2 main hand 1/2 off hand

    equip a pure physical dmg off hand and the soj alone will provide the same effect.

    If you equip anything but cold or physical and the elemental dmg is better then the soj (hint it will be) then you won't get the slow.

    Also you would want to equip another dagger as the attack speed on daggers is just nice, you hit more often and apply the slow effect sooner.
  • #15

    dont get an ef. u will hate it and so will every person who does a run with u.
    i have a buddy who rocks one and i flat out told him i will not do a single run with him if he uses it. infact, i handed him my main hand axe to use and dropped my dps by 30k just so i wouldnt have to deal iwht his ef. ur "paperdoll" dps may be higher, but ur effective dps is so stupidly low because of ur lack of fury and the lack of mobs ur hitting every second because they run everywhere


    This is exactly why I have been doing some experiments and started this thread. There certainly are plenty of EF haters out here on the forums and I was very scared that I was going to hate it also. But after playing around with a few cheap ones, I am convinced that a decent EF ($100-200M) will deliver me;
    • A big DPS increase (real, not paper dps!)
    • Massive improvement in attack speeds which in turn provides a disproportionate increase in RLTW and WW ticks - this makes fury management much easier.
    • A slight PITA factor from the fear factor (with the point of this thread to try and understand how to minimise the effects of fear).
    In my experiments using an attack speed EF @ 1.51 aps, I was getting into 23/26 ticks per second and 26/30 tps with WOTB up. And this is with no attack speed on my rings or amulet, so plenty of potential to bump up to the next breakpoints!
    Even with a very low base damage EF (800dps with no critical hit damage), I was killing mobs nearly as quickly as I do with my 1000dps mace with 98% crit damage! I was quite surprised!. Fury management was much easier at these attack speeds as well.
    I was testing on MP7. I have since tested with a slower EF @1.43 with higher damage (1000dps) but it wasn't fast enough to hit a decent RLTW breakpoint and it actually took much longer than the 800dps EF!. I have been using high Fear Ef's for my testing and even at 19.5% fear, the effect isn't that bad given I use a cold damage dagger and also have the cold Stone of Jordan as well. A combination of both seems to very effectively negate the Fear effect, although I don't really want to run with a SoJ, so next step is to trial a cold damage scoundrel.

    I assume your buddy is not using any Fear reduction equipment?
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