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Quote from Kickin_It

During the Q&A session with lead game designer Jay Wilson at Blizzard HQ Thursday, we were treated to a fairly lengthy discussion about the Skill Runes system. Evidently, runes will not come into play during the Beta test, which led a participant to ask when we’ll see them. Jay responded that Runes will first start dropping in Act II Normal and mentioned that Skill Runes were the only major game system that still had significant revision coming its way. This statement opened the floodgates on a new Rune system that they're hoping they can get into the game. Before I get into the specifics, Jay wanted us to mention:

Official Blizzard Quote:

By the way, this is all theory; we haven’t put this in yet, so this is the way we think we’re going to go, but it’s not solidified. So keep that in mind when you report on it, make sure you say “this is theory,” but I feel like it’s theory worth sharing, especially with the fan community… We haven’t tried it out yet. So it might suck. I’m gonna put that caveat out there, but that’s the one thing we still want to try with that system, and if it works, we’ll keep it. If it doesn’t, then the system works pretty well as it is.

Overall, this theory of Blizzard’s isn’t particularly earth-shattering. Runes will still be placed in skills to alter their functionality in the same way we’re used to. They’ll still be item drops off of monsters, but the team didn’t think that Runes felt like items in the classic Diablo sense. There was no variation, no randomization. A given Rune-Skill combination always produced the same result, so long as the level of the Rune was constant. In addition to this, when moused over, the UI for Runes simply displayed the effect it had on each of your active skills. During the internal alpha testing, they found that this became a nightmare point of comparison and, after a while, just got to be frustrating for the players.

To rectify these issues, they came up with the idea of having Runes drop “unattuned.” This basically means that when a Rune drops, it’s just plain and grey and doesn’t have any specific effect on your skills. Once you socket the rune into your skill, however, it becomes attuned to that skill, providing it a bonus based on the Rune type that it randomly rolls. In addition, they are considering adding an additional random stat bonus – much like the charm system of the now-scrapped Talisman – to attuned Runes. Bashiok had this to say about the new system:

Official Blizzard Quote:

Personally, I love it, and hope it finds a way in.

I'm not so sure about rolling to see which rune effect you get (it could still work), but I *love* the idea of random affixes. That you could have a end-rank rune for the skill you want, with the effect you want, but you still don't have ideal stats on it. That just makes the min/max item hunt that much cooler, and makes runes more important than... "Oh, I found another Crimson rune. Great. /salvage"

These features combine to add an air of randomness, familiar with most Diablo loot, to Skill Runes as well. Skill Runes of equal level can vary significantly from one to another, and high-stat or “Perfect” Runes will likely become incredibly valuable. On the other hand, if you socket a Rune into a skill and don’t get what you want out of it, they hope that it feels much more like any other piece of loot that drops that you don’t want and not like a let-down or a waste of a Rune (especially considering that Rune might be valuable to another player with a different build or playstyle).

Another difference from the current system is that when Runes are removed from skills, they will remain attuned to that skill. In the old system, if you removed a Rune from a skill, you could easily place that same Rune into a different skill to reap its benefits there. Not so with the new system. So, for example, if you put an unattuned Rune into your Magic Missiles and it rolls an Indigo effect (which adds additional missiles per rank), if you later decide to take that Rune out, it will forever remain a Magic Missile splitting Rune, unusable in any other skill. Even this isn't completely set in stone though, as they've hinted that they might add a functionality to the Mystic to wipe effects off Runes.

This proposed system would also play into the new skill system. Since skills are now freely swappable, they felt they needed a soft mechanism to encourage the player to focus on their favorite skills rather than swapping them out for whichever skill was preferable for a given situation. The fact that Runes are permanently attuned to a specific skill as soon as they are socketed in that skill accomplishes this. Although Jay described Rank 1 Runes as “candy that you can throw out and experiment with all you want,” higher rank Runes will be much more precious. Socketing high-rank Runes into a skill will represent an investment in that skill, hopefully discouraging the player from swapping it out for another on a whim.

While the core mechanic of Runes would remain unchanged in this new system, Runes - especially high-level ones - will become a much more valuable commodity. Since each Rune is permanently attuned to a single skill, they will be much more build-specific and, with random stats, highly sought after Runes will be far more difficult to obtain. What do you think? Do you like the sound of this proposed new system or are you happy with Skill Runes the way they are?

Quote from Kickin_It

Quote from Yinmaren

There aren't skill points, but there are skills. Now we simply pick the skills and they automatically level up for us?

Basically, your character has access to all his/her class skills. However, you can only actively use 6 of those skills at a time. Choosing those 6 skills from your pool of skills (I believe each class has 24) is the essence of building your character. Your skills will then scale either with level (which is really no different from D2, except that in D2 when you leveled up, you got a skill point to increase your skills. Now it's just automatic. Think of it as the game spending your skill point for you, except that it can put a point in all of your skills instead of just one.) or based on weapon damage. Your attributes will further increase the effectiveness of your skills.

Quote from Yinmaren

There are runes but the explanation of what they want to do with them doesn't make any sense.

What is it that you're confused about?

Quote from PantheraOnca

Quote from Yinmaren

This entire thing is getting out of hand.

/snip

ETA: In the search for simplicity they've made something completely foreign and alien.

Whoa dude. Go have a beer, sit down, close your eyes for a few mins, and then get back to thinking about diablo or whatever.

The descriptions given weren't crystal clear, but I think the system JW was hoping would get in would be a good one.

Think of runes as acting like charms in d2, except you've got a 6 slot box that can only hold charms. Ok, so that covers the stat bonuses.

From what JW said, it sounded like the stat bonuses applied to your character, rather than the spell. I could have misinterpretted that. Either way it doesn't really matter. Either you or that skill have a bonus just for having ANY rune in that skill.

Ok, so now we go for the rune effect. It seemed to me like JW never said that the effect was randomized and that sixen (was it sixen? i'm terrible with voice recognition without a face to put to it) thought the effect of the rune was randomized while it SEEMED like JW was only referring to the bonuses being randomized. I think they were talking passed each other a bit.

Even if the particular effect is randomized, you'll have about a 20% chance of getting the right effect (there are about 5 different rune effects right?) and then you can worry about stats after that.

I'm assuming that's the perspective most players will take as it would seem the effect has a bigger impact than however many point bonus the rune would give.

With a high level rune (lets say lvl 7 is the highest, i dunno where i'm getting that from) all i'll REALLY be looking for is the right effect until i have all my skills with a lvl 7 rune with the right effect. Once i have that i'll start worrying about stats.

Really, runes are just small charms+. they're not foreign or alien, but another mechanic to allow for character and playstyle customization.

Quote from Yinmaren

Right, and the fact that you had to explain to me that the game spends my points for me (thanks, I really enjoy automatized) is a needless complexity.

It's easier to say "You level up, you get a point, you spend the point in what you want and then you can find runes which modify your skills" than it is to say "You can choose X number of skills and you get no points and then there are these runes that you can put in your skills to modify them but they're locked in to the skill you put it in but you can take them out."

That's where the confusion is. There's needless complexity in a system that isn't complex, and it's foreign to both Diablo and the genre.

Quote from spaceninja123

Quote from Kickin_It

So, for example, if you put an unattuned Rune into your Magic Missiles and it rolls an Indigo effect (which adds additional missiles per rank), if you later decide to take that Rune out, it will forever remain a Magic Missile splitting Rune, unusable in any other skill. Even this isn't completely set in stone though, as they've hinted that they might add a functionality to the Mystic to wipe effects off Runes.

Wont we be able to wipe effects over and over again until we get the perfect effects?

Quote from Kickin_It

Quote from Yinmaren

Right, and the fact that you had to explain to me that the game spends my points for me (thanks, I really enjoy automatized) is a needless complexity.

It's easier to say "You level up, you get a point, you spend the point in what you want and then you can find runes which modify your skills" than it is to say "You can choose X number of skills and you get no points and then there are these runes that you can put in your skills to modify them but they're locked in to the skill you put it in but you can take them out."

That's where the confusion is. There's needless complexity in a system that isn't complex, and it's foreign to both Diablo and the genre.

I guess I have to disagree. The process of gaining a level, which awards you a skill point, which you then have to choose between 24 possible choices on where to spend it, and then actually manually, physically doing so is actually quite a bit more complicated than "as you level up, you get stronger." That's how the system works. The higher your level, the stronger your skills. How is that needlessly complex?

The 6-Skill cap is there to create and encourage build diversity. Diablo 3 (like its predecessor) is a game largely built on character customization. Passive Skills, Runes, attributes & itemization, etc. all play into this as well. Having customization systems with depth is what this game is all about. It may be difficult to grasp the concepts since we're all on the outside looking in, but I think once you're actually playing the game, it will make much more sense and your feeling that all these systems are "needlessly complex" will be out the window. They may be complex, but it's actually a necessity for the game.

Quote from Yinmaren

Quote from PantheraOnca

Quote from Yinmaren

This entire thing is getting out of hand.

/snip

ETA: In the search for simplicity they've made something completely foreign and alien.

Whoa dude. Go have a beer, sit down, close your eyes for a few mins, and then get back to thinking about diablo or whatever.

The descriptions given weren't crystal clear, but I think the system JW was hoping would get in would be a good one.

Think of runes as acting like charms in d2, except you've got a 6 slot box that can only hold charms. Ok, so that covers the stat bonuses.

From what JW said, it sounded like the stat bonuses applied to your character, rather than the spell. I could have misinterpretted that. Either way it doesn't really matter. Either you or that skill have a bonus just for having ANY rune in that skill.

Ok, so now we go for the rune effect. It seemed to me like JW never said that the effect was randomized and that sixen (was it sixen? i'm terrible with voice recognition without a face to put to it) thought the effect of the rune was randomized while it SEEMED like JW was only referring to the bonuses being randomized. I think they were talking passed each other a bit.

Even if the particular effect is randomized, you'll have about a 20% chance of getting the right effect (there are about 5 different rune effects right?) and then you can worry about stats after that.

I'm assuming that's the perspective most players will take as it would seem the effect has a bigger impact than however many point bonus the rune would give.

With a high level rune (lets say lvl 7 is the highest, i dunno where i'm getting that from) all i'll REALLY be looking for is the right effect until i have all my skills with a lvl 7 rune with the right effect. Once i have that i'll start worrying about stats.

Really, runes are just small charms+. they're not foreign or alien, but another mechanic to allow for character and playstyle customization.

I don't think you have runes right.

Runes fundamentally modify your skills.

All I'm saying is that this system is weird. It seems arbitrary.

ETA: Runes in this game are going to have the same problem as last game. Incredibly rare runes are going to drop incredibly rarely. Zod, etc.

Quote from optaboy

Quote from Yinmaren

Quote from PantheraOnca

Quote from Yinmaren

This entire thing is getting out of hand.

/snip

ETA: In the search for simplicity they've made something completely foreign and alien.

Whoa dude. Go have a beer, sit down, close your eyes for a few mins, and then get back to thinking about diablo or whatever.

The descriptions given weren't crystal clear, but I think the system JW was hoping would get in would be a good one.

Think of runes as acting like charms in d2, except you've got a 6 slot box that can only hold charms. Ok, so that covers the stat bonuses.

From what JW said, it sounded like the stat bonuses applied to your character, rather than the spell. I could have misinterpretted that. Either way it doesn't really matter. Either you or that skill have a bonus just for having ANY rune in that skill.

Ok, so now we go for the rune effect. It seemed to me like JW never said that the effect was randomized and that sixen (was it sixen? i'm terrible with voice recognition without a face to put to it) thought the effect of the rune was randomized while it SEEMED like JW was only referring to the bonuses being randomized. I think they were talking passed each other a bit.

Even if the particular effect is randomized, you'll have about a 20% chance of getting the right effect (there are about 5 different rune effects right?) and then you can worry about stats after that.

I'm assuming that's the perspective most players will take as it would seem the effect has a bigger impact than however many point bonus the rune would give.

With a high level rune (lets say lvl 7 is the highest, i dunno where i'm getting that from) all i'll REALLY be looking for is the right effect until i have all my skills with a lvl 7 rune with the right effect. Once i have that i'll start worrying about stats.

Really, runes are just small charms+. they're not foreign or alien, but another mechanic to allow for character and playstyle customization.

I don't think you have runes right.

Runes fundamentally modify your skills.

All I'm saying is that this system is weird. It seems arbitrary.

ETA: Runes in this game are going to have the same problem as last game. Incredibly rare runes are going to drop incredibly rarely. Zod, etc.

Comparing runes to zod is silly because you are ignoring the Mystic rerolling the level 7 rune as many times as you have gold which is much easier to find than another lvl7 rune.

Quote from Yinmaren

What is the point of the leveling system without the ability to choose how you want your character to be stronger?

Quote from Yinmaren

Why not increment your abilities based on what part of the game you're at? Since we're going to be max level around the time we hit the end of the game, why not just remove levels and then every time we hit a rebirth fountain (or whatever they're called) we get stronger?

Quote from Kickin_It

Quote from Yinmaren

What is the point of the leveling system without the ability to choose how you want your character to be stronger?

You choose how you want your character to be stronger by choosing which skills you use and by choosing which Rune effects you want to place in those skills and choosing when, why, and how to utilize those skills most effectively for the playstyle and build you've chosen.

Quote from Yinmaren

Why not increment your abilities based on what part of the game you're at? Since we're going to be max level around the time we hit the end of the game, why not just remove levels and then every time we hit a rebirth fountain (or whatever they're called) we get stronger?

The leveling system offers a sense of character progression. If you've defeated Hell difficulty and you decide to go back into a normal game for one reason or another, is your character and all his/her skills supposed to get weaker? What's the point in that? What's the difference between hitting a rebirth fountain and gaining a level? Ignoring the fact that this system would be a nightmare to actually implement into a game for the reasons mentioned above, it devalues the character. A character created 10 seconds ago could be of equivalent power to one created 2 years ago just because they're in the same zone? That doesn't make sense.

Quote from Yinmaren

So, what you're saying is that, if my Barbarian spins around like a whirling dervish, using two weapons at once... he's going to get identical stat gain to a Barbarian who uses huge two handed axes and big, brutal attacks? It doesn't fit thematically and it's an arbitrary decision.

Here's what this system really is. This isn't some next-level game design. This is almost identical to Final Fantasy 1.

ETA: And you still had to make all of the same decisions in Diablo 2 about your character (what skills you were going to use, how you were going to use them, etc) but you also had to consider many more things.

Don't be naive by thinking there's more customization here. There's not.

Quote from Jay Wilson »

Our combat system is really based around having somewhere between 4-6 skills.