They are two completely different games with very little crossover, my interest in the console version as an individual who will probably never play it is VERY limited and entirely academic because it will never have any real effects on what i am going to call the REAL Diablo 3 which is the PC version...
As an illustration of why this is an issue: just looking at the DiabloFans news-page as it currently stands im forced to admit that it has lost overall value to me as a result of the diversified interest in the console version. I see the word 'console' and immediately tune out or go somewhere else because it does not affect me.
just a rant but i'm sure im not the only one who feels this way. Diablo3 has been convoluted by the console version.
It has the ability to enhance the pc version also but right now the whole situation seems convoluted while we're awaiting any substantial pc news or updates.
on topic : I really did not think that this would go much further than what Zero said in post 2. It's a matter of opinion, the one "stellar" ARPG that everybody loves just does not exist. Because we are different and like different stuff.
It's like asking "why cant they develop a color that is everybodys favourite color?" Anyone who can think past his own head will quickly realise that it will never work.
Except that there will be two groups of people here those who agree with the OP that there are no "stellar" ARPGS in this generation and those who don't agree.
I agree because I believe that diablo 2 was a better game for its time than diablo 3 is (currently) for its time. Hence my posts and post similar to mine which are engaging in the naturally more interesting discussion about why ARPGS of this generation pale in comparison to: so far Diablo 2 primarily since it was the dominant ARPG of the time.
keeping in mind that the cut-scenes and dialogue are really a feature which has been added by Diablo 3 and not a feature of the previous Diablo games. Especially the boss cut-scenes annoy the shit out of me Azmodan throughout act 3 is annoying and childish as fuck. what Diablo 2 did was fine eg one liners at the start of each fight "not even death can save you from me" and they did not need a cut-scene to say it either
The way bosses are separated from everything else allows them to do some cool things but also makes them feel really separated from the world which is lame
I think a good follow question would be: Where do you see the genre going into the future? What systems would you like to see evolve, added or removed, become more dynamic, etc.
D4* - Each class has 3 predefined specs to choose from. The item hunt is all about transmog since stats were removed from gear. Also stream lined levels by removing them entirely. Randomizing a map feels too old school so stream lined that was well. Playing your once favorite franchise will finally be on par with coin-op arcade games.
PoE - More races, more depth, more randomization, more replayability. D2's spiritual successor.
For me D3 is about to lose its one redeeming quality. Hearthstone will let me catchup with old WoW friends.
* People who loved D3 will be outraged at how D4 turned out.
Exactly! the logical conclusion to a system which allows for complete respecing is to do away with levelling all together because levelling is pointless without a skill system or power-up system which goes hand-hand with it.
ATM the D3 skill and power system is almost completely divorced from player choices as they relate to the levelling process.
Most people wanted the same as D2 except better. We wanted skill trees, stats, Pking, runewords etc.
Stop issuing your opinion as if you represented others. Seems to be a very bad habit of yours. "Most people wanted"? How do you even know most people who played D2 or play D3?
Overneathe touched on this subject on another thread: there's no way you can tell what the majority wants for D3 (
. Im not violating any rules when simply telling it how it is am I? I really don't get what you are your friend there have against such a real statement.
No real D2/ARPG fan wanted the removal of skills trees which is pretty much the very essence of D2. And if you did, you are then one of the major reasons D3 has lost any real reason to roll new characters and actually build anything.
Now you can sit their and call it an opinion. But feel free to prove me wrong.
I don't think you played D2 in the past 3 years at all... You do realize they completely removed the requirement to lvl another char just to play another build by introducing skill tree resets right? And even after using the 3 they give you, players can still farm essences to create an item that, when used, resets their skill tree...
Please get your facts straight before posting
Its not that simple its about the process of levelling not just the result of the levelling. Having the ability to respec is cool its handy but the process of levelling is not enjoyable because there are no different paths to follow or at the very best the paths are "under the hood" and you have to find them but it does not even seem that way because there is such a haphazard connection between the different skills. Skills synergy is hit and miss.
Feelings of improved power should now come from the items you find, but unfortunately the itemisation is rather broken right now.
I dont think this is enough though, finding items should not be the only way of improving a character unless those items have something to do with skills( which is what i liked about the previous unimplemented D3 rune system)
To put it abit more clearly the levelling system does not make much sense in an arpg without there being new choices that you have to make when you reach each level, it was the choices and the increase in power which they yielded that made levelling exciting...the levelling system really becomes abit pointless when there are no rewards associated with going up a new level sure you get access to a few more skills but they are not really any more powerful than previous skills for balancing purposes....
So why have a levelling system at all?? it just does not make sense its not coherent, the levelling system as it is right now is just boring because you dont do anything new or cooler when you go up a level, its not an opportunity to set, change or maintain the course of your character which is a core aspect of RPG'S.
The game begins at 60...? so if the only power increases you get come from items why have a levelling system at all?
Therefore an additional system is needed if levelling is going to be the fun process that it was in the past, Vtruth is right about re-rolling characters not being fun or interesting its not once you've got one character of each class to 60 theres not much point in doing it again because......i know Jaetch did it with Ninja Wiz but im guessing that was mainly for convenience of not switching builds- gear round.
There is only: 1 PATH for each character type until you reach 60.
I would like it if the difference between D2 and D3 was the same as the difference between D1 and D2...D2 on the whole built ontop D1 while D3 to me stripped away some of the things that were good about D2 the items obviously but also the genuine feel and enjoyment of making decisions about character progress while levelling are severely lacking for me.
An ARPG is first and Foremost a role playing game and as such users still play out a role, when that role is previously determined for you as they have done with stats and skills to a certain extent(since you don't control which skills you acquire) then some of the role playing aspect has been taken away and needs to be replaced i agreed with their logic about stat choices being irrelevant because there is a "best way to do it" but that wont change the fact that allocating and thinking about the way stats should be allocated was fun as was determining your build by distributing skills points..where are the RPG choices which replaced them fundamental systems? they kept them put them under the hood but did not replace which has really changed the psychological feel of the game.
At the abstract level all this is just making decisions about how your character progresses and changes overtime and the excitement of that process has been extinguished by the removal of these choices
Lack of RPG choices.
Bad Items.
Weak map Randomization.
I agree with all the positive things that are said about D3 i still marvel at the brilliance of combat and the tactics which are required but when it comes to the above things D3 Fails hard and if it did not i think it would be and hopefully still could be this generations great ARPG.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
This really got me thinking.
ALL the items in the ah once dropped for somebody. There is no other source for items than having them drop ingame. So when people say "the drops are too bad, look at all the nice items in the AH" they are really saying "MY drops are bad, I am jaelous cause I see that there are people who get better drops".
In my opinion.
Maybe I am wrong. Please enlighten me.
No your totally right every item is originally found by someone(except for duping) but that's not the perspective which we are individually presented with. The AH is just like a giant vendor which allows you to search for any item in the game. That suggestion has been made allot by people( jealousy) but that does not cover the self found trend-people voluntarily choosing to not use the AH at all because they find it ruins their experience with the game, nor does it cover people finding the game too easy or boring as a result of using the AH.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
PoE doesn't have an AH, but people still complain that trading >>>>>>> drops.
The only problem that needs to be solved is that playing without the AH needs to feel rewarding. If some people want to shortcut their way to the top and then get bored... who cares? That's not a problem Blizzard should even bother attempting to solve.
Well i would presume that the players who are now bored as a result of short-cutting do care and that blizzard does not want bored players, secondly why should a short-cut exist in the first-place?? its not an intentional short-cut the auction house was not implemented to make the game much much easier but it does....
so yeah i disagree that all that needs to be handled is that playing without the auction house should be satisfying: its an equation as you stated: trading >>>> drops and any change that increases drops quality or quantity as an item source will make the short-cut shorter and even less enjoyable. Therefore i believe the auction house needs to be re-implemented in a way which makes it much less powerful.
I understood it correctly which is why I stated it is unfair. As I've said, the Auction House is a valid form of trading and there is no reason players should be punished for using. I respect those who don't use it whether it be only playing self found or only trading with players via chat channels and forums.
From what I'm gathering from your reply is that there are people who simply believe the Auction House is a problem because it exists and not because of its functionality or consequences. That's also fine however it's irreversible at this point. Diablo III is going to have a functional Auction House for the rest of its existence.
I believe the auction house causes issues because of the way it functions. Basically it's just too powerful you can get the exact item from the auction house that you want and begin using it immediately....why is this an issue? because it far surpasses anything which could ever be achieved in game...it is the ultimate item source if you want an instant upgrade with very little playing of the game involved.
trading should imo not be a more powerful source of acquiring items than the game is-for individuals trading should be supplemental to your in game item finding activities
The main benefits of the auction house are that it grounds the in game currency and mitigates third party item sellers to an extent.
These features are worth preserving as they are the genuine improvements from D2 but these could be preserved without having it be the instantaneous, impersonal incomparably efficient source of items which it is now. thus as well as providing better item sinks etc the auction house should be reformed towards a system that supports and enhances in game trades. This would not punish people who want to trade more rather than less but would limit the efficiency of the auction house in a way that allows the developers to balance in game drops against a realistic trading source rather than an insurmountable one.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
My 2 cents...
The AH provides a mechanism to trade in an easy way. Is A LOT better than trade chat/ a trade window. Most games these days have AH systems (but not a RMAH).
The RMAH is also good to solve the issue that occurred in D2 (and other games) where 3rd party sites would spam chat channels/games and possibly rip players off. Real money purchases would still happen no matter if the D3 RMAH existed or not.
I think some have a problem with how easily the auction houses enable players to get godly gear.
It is funny though in some ways that the ELITE players talk about efficiency all the time but don’t like the AH even though it is more efficient to farm currently (bar Exp)..
I do agree that players should be rewarded more for playing the game and not the AH though.
At the moment there are a few options:
Remove Auction Houses
Not a good idea as they are needed to solve the other problems that occur in games without them
Have a BOA model
Allows players to get better gear playing than from using the AH/RMAH - Is also away to have the AH stay intact
Have a different drop rate for BOA items (new type of rarity introduced maybe)
Have a Top Tier Gear Sink
A BOA model is a form of a Gear Sink
Having a reason to salvage Top Teir Gear
It used to be for Brimstones (long ago).
Idea - Maybe salvaging a Tal Rasha Chest so that you get a ‘Tal Rasha’ Jewel that is used to socket an item. The better the perfection of the item, the better the Jewel salvaged will be.
Cosmetic item rewards for selling good items to a new vendor.
Gear that levels up
Items that are self-found can grow in power (levelled up). The more you play the better your gear will become. If traded items lose levelling potential
TLDR:
I think all I am trying to say is that there are more elegant solutions that can be implemented than removing the AH’s (which were required to solve different issues of previous/other games)
Good to see someone laying out the options, the problem with the AH comes down to 3 individual problems which synergiestically create an ever greater problem.
1.The supply of items increases over time which drives down their prices.
2. Its easier to get upgrades through the auction house than through farming.
3. Farming is dissatisfying because you never find upgrades.(the motivation for going self-found)
From these there emerge sets of broad strategies which could be used to solve these problems.
1. Decrease the item supply
eg. provide better and more attractive item sinks (the expected reward of these item sinks must be equal or greater than the expected reward from using the auction house)
A ladder counts as an item sink
2.Limit the efficacy of the auction house/make trading less appealing/make item hunting more appealing..
E.G make it longer to execute a trade, Limit the amount of items that can be purchased/sold, increase the tax applied to AH items
3. Make finding/acquiring upgrades easier
Increase drop-rates etc.
Personally i favour more and better item sinks as the best solution to the auction house problem. Anything which gets players destroying items is going to be good for the game. There's no point in making items easier that will only exacerbate the problem unless accompanied by corresponding AH controls/nerfs.
I dont actually think a ladder would be as good in D3 as it was in D2 the design decisions have lead to D3 losing its Account based strategy and systems such as paragon are really designed for longterm play. also creating a new character in D3 is just not as fun since you can already experiment however you like within that class. Finally there not so many low level sets and legendaries so getting from normal to inferno is not nearly as fun D3 is an ALL about inferno atm at least.(prays for more low level sets etc.
It seems to work pretty well in the lower difficulties i was facing an elite pack today on nightmare and when they hit me there health bar made a noticeable jump up.
Teleport-ive been playing with a barb recently and its quite clear that leap is far more effective in terms of its range and ability to avoid obstacles than Teleport is especially in areas with lots of walls i find that teleport just does not work very well.its the wizards only kiting ability and since wizards do allot of kiting it needs to be improved.
Teleport - Allow teleporting through walls and increase its range and accuracy.
Arcane orb, Arcane nova - Should originate from wizard as source ala novas in diablo 1, 2.
alott of wizard passives also need work to offer more build synergies.
1
As an illustration of why this is an issue: just looking at the DiabloFans news-page as it currently stands im forced to admit that it has lost overall value to me as a result of the diversified interest in the console version. I see the word 'console' and immediately tune out or go somewhere else because it does not affect me.
just a rant but i'm sure im not the only one who feels this way. Diablo3 has been convoluted by the console version.
It has the ability to enhance the pc version also but right now the whole situation seems convoluted while we're awaiting any substantial pc news or updates.
EDIT: also 100th post woot!
0
Except that there will be two groups of people here those who agree with the OP that there are no "stellar" ARPGS in this generation and those who don't agree.
I agree because I believe that diablo 2 was a better game for its time than diablo 3 is (currently) for its time. Hence my posts and post similar to mine which are engaging in the naturally more interesting discussion about why ARPGS of this generation pale in comparison to: so far Diablo 2 primarily since it was the dominant ARPG of the time.
0
The way bosses are separated from everything else allows them to do some cool things but also makes them feel really separated from the world which is lame
0
Exactly! the logical conclusion to a system which allows for complete respecing is to do away with levelling all together because levelling is pointless without a skill system or power-up system which goes hand-hand with it.
ATM the D3 skill and power system is almost completely divorced from player choices as they relate to the levelling process.
0
Its not that simple its about the process of levelling not just the result of the levelling. Having the ability to respec is cool its handy but the process of levelling is not enjoyable because there are no different paths to follow or at the very best the paths are "under the hood" and you have to find them but it does not even seem that way because there is such a haphazard connection between the different skills. Skills synergy is hit and miss.
0
I dont think this is enough though, finding items should not be the only way of improving a character unless those items have something to do with skills( which is what i liked about the previous unimplemented D3 rune system)
To put it abit more clearly the levelling system does not make much sense in an arpg without there being new choices that you have to make when you reach each level, it was the choices and the increase in power which they yielded that made levelling exciting...the levelling system really becomes abit pointless when there are no rewards associated with going up a new level sure you get access to a few more skills but they are not really any more powerful than previous skills for balancing purposes....
So why have a levelling system at all?? it just does not make sense its not coherent, the levelling system as it is right now is just boring because you dont do anything new or cooler when you go up a level, its not an opportunity to set, change or maintain the course of your character which is a core aspect of RPG'S.
The game begins at 60...? so if the only power increases you get come from items why have a levelling system at all?
Therefore an additional system is needed if levelling is going to be the fun process that it was in the past, Vtruth is right about re-rolling characters not being fun or interesting its not once you've got one character of each class to 60 theres not much point in doing it again because......i know Jaetch did it with Ninja Wiz but im guessing that was mainly for convenience of not switching builds- gear round.
There is only: 1 PATH for each character type until you reach 60.
0
An ARPG is first and Foremost a role playing game and as such users still play out a role, when that role is previously determined for you as they have done with stats and skills to a certain extent(since you don't control which skills you acquire) then some of the role playing aspect has been taken away and needs to be replaced i agreed with their logic about stat choices being irrelevant because there is a "best way to do it" but that wont change the fact that allocating and thinking about the way stats should be allocated was fun as was determining your build by distributing skills points..where are the RPG choices which replaced them fundamental systems? they kept them put them under the hood but did not replace which has really changed the psychological feel of the game.
At the abstract level all this is just making decisions about how your character progresses and changes overtime and the excitement of that process has been extinguished by the removal of these choices
Lack of RPG choices.
Bad Items.
Weak map Randomization.
I agree with all the positive things that are said about D3 i still marvel at the brilliance of combat and the tactics which are required but when it comes to the above things D3 Fails hard and if it did not i think it would be and hopefully still could be this generations great ARPG.
0
No your totally right every item is originally found by someone(except for duping) but that's not the perspective which we are individually presented with. The AH is just like a giant vendor which allows you to search for any item in the game. That suggestion has been made allot by people( jealousy) but that does not cover the self found trend-people voluntarily choosing to not use the AH at all because they find it ruins their experience with the game, nor does it cover people finding the game too easy or boring as a result of using the AH.
0
Well i would presume that the players who are now bored as a result of short-cutting do care and that blizzard does not want bored players, secondly why should a short-cut exist in the first-place?? its not an intentional short-cut the auction house was not implemented to make the game much much easier but it does....
so yeah i disagree that all that needs to be handled is that playing without the auction house should be satisfying: its an equation as you stated: trading >>>> drops and any change that increases drops quality or quantity as an item source will make the short-cut shorter and even less enjoyable. Therefore i believe the auction house needs to be re-implemented in a way which makes it much less powerful.
0
I believe the auction house causes issues because of the way it functions. Basically it's just too powerful you can get the exact item from the auction house that you want and begin using it immediately....why is this an issue? because it far surpasses anything which could ever be achieved in game...it is the ultimate item source if you want an instant upgrade with very little playing of the game involved.
trading should imo not be a more powerful source of acquiring items than the game is-for individuals trading should be supplemental to your in game item finding activities
The main benefits of the auction house are that it grounds the in game currency and mitigates third party item sellers to an extent.
These features are worth preserving as they are the genuine improvements from D2 but these could be preserved without having it be the instantaneous, impersonal incomparably efficient source of items which it is now. thus as well as providing better item sinks etc the auction house should be reformed towards a system that supports and enhances in game trades. This would not punish people who want to trade more rather than less but would limit the efficiency of the auction house in a way that allows the developers to balance in game drops against a realistic trading source rather than an insurmountable one.
ATM individuals' in game drops cannot compete with the auction house and there's nothing the developers can do to resolve that without making it less powerful.
0
Good to see someone laying out the options, the problem with the AH comes down to 3 individual problems which synergiestically create an ever greater problem.
1.The supply of items increases over time which drives down their prices.
2. Its easier to get upgrades through the auction house than through farming.
3. Farming is dissatisfying because you never find upgrades.(the motivation for going self-found)
From these there emerge sets of broad strategies which could be used to solve these problems.
1. Decrease the item supply
eg. provide better and more attractive item sinks (the expected reward of these item sinks must be equal or greater than the expected reward from using the auction house)
A ladder counts as an item sink
2.Limit the efficacy of the auction house/make trading less appealing/make item hunting more appealing..
E.G make it longer to execute a trade, Limit the amount of items that can be purchased/sold, increase the tax applied to AH items
3. Make finding/acquiring upgrades easier
Increase drop-rates etc.
Personally i favour more and better item sinks as the best solution to the auction house problem. Anything which gets players destroying items is going to be good for the game. There's no point in making items easier that will only exacerbate the problem unless accompanied by corresponding AH controls/nerfs.
I dont actually think a ladder would be as good in D3 as it was in D2 the design decisions have lead to D3 losing its Account based strategy and systems such as paragon are really designed for longterm play. also creating a new character in D3 is just not as fun since you can already experiment however you like within that class. Finally there not so many low level sets and legendaries so getting from normal to inferno is not nearly as fun D3 is an ALL about inferno atm at least.(prays for more low level sets etc.
0
0
0
Teleport - Allow teleporting through walls and increase its range and accuracy.
Arcane orb, Arcane nova - Should originate from wizard as source ala novas in diablo 1, 2.
alott of wizard passives also need work to offer more build synergies.
0
Eg Inferno Elite Kills:Time Ratio (which cancels out the time effect) -to a certain extent
Elite Kills to Death Ratio. etc