DiabloFans

Quote from shaggy

Lucky people will always have more gold or more items than unlucky people. We don't need to make that gap bigger, it's already far too big. Loot 2.0 is trying to close that gap... right? I just don't see how putting a further 20% on self-found items helps that goal.

Quote from shaggy

Quote from Solmyr77

Maybe we have different expectations about the game in general. You don't want the lucky people to have the best stuff, I don't want the 24/7 AH people to have it.

Nooooo.

I want lucky people to have great stuff, and I don't want people who spend more time in the AH to be the "winners" either. I just don't want a system that further exacerbates "luck" as that has proven to NOT WORK.

Just look at the current system. Why are people using the AH so much? Their luck sucks, plain and simple. The only difference with this system is that a guy who got lucky with a great Skorn is now forced to use it on one of his characters instead of selling it to someone else. It's not really changing anything from a broad perspective.

We all want randomized loot but we don't want each item to have less of a chance of being good than winning the Powerball lottery, right? That's the whole idea behind Loot 2.0 - less quantity, more quality, more relevance to our toons. The reason the game can be so frustrating right now is because you'd be better off taking your $60 to a casino and having at the roulette wheel.

Lucky people will always have more gold or more items than unlucky people. We don't need to make that gap bigger, it's already far too big. Loot 2.0 is trying to close that gap... right? I just don't see how putting a further 20% on self-found items helps that goal.

Quote from Solmyr77

Quote from shaggy

Quote from Solmyr77

Your point is fair in theory but practice would crush it. The odds of finding a Skorn that is within range of 20% of the ones that are available on the AH and affordable are still extremely small. Look at those high end people who still use ilvl62 amulets from the AH instead of crafted ones.

This idea only tips the odds of finding good gear in our favor, which is brilliant. This does not create characters that are 120% times as powerful as before. Not even close, I doubt a 5% increase in power, maybe 1%.

That 1-5% increase is already enough for people to dismiss entire builds. That 1-5% could mean the difference between having PvP and having completely unbalanced PvP.

I have never argued that finding top items is common, or easy, or anything along those lines. I'm the first person to tell you it's not common. That's EXACTLY what makes this even worse. You find a near-perfect Skorn, you keep it, and now you have a weapon that is 20% better than anything anyone else can have until they get lucky and find their own.

Maybe we have different expectations about the game in general. You don't want the lucky people to have the best stuff, I don't want the 24/7 AH people to have it. Not that I care to much about that, but I don't like the idea of "working" for my equipment instead of playing.

Still, even if someone finds that max everything Skorn and gets the 20% bonus ontop of that, he would still need billions of gold to buy the rest of his equipment if he wants to secure that edge over people like Jaetch for example. And unless they would meet in the Arena, who would care? You would probably never meet that guy.

Quote from Mutilate24

Quote from WarlockHolmez

The thing is though, I feel like everyone is overestimating the odds you have at finding a high end item you want.

That's the point a ~20% stat boost will push a mediocre item to a great item but then that great item becomes mediocre again when you go to trade. The items then become vendor trash and the person is left with a feeling of "well I just got screwed". That's how I would feel at least. Right now, when I see that orange beam I get a little "oooooh" feeling. When I Id the item I immediately know it's good or bad, no question. With the Pristine system, it adds an extra layer of "hey this would be awesome, if I actually needed it, but I don't so...well look at that, it's a crappy item in the open market." I don't think we need to muddy that water.

Quote from shaggy

EDIT
To further emphasize my point, the difference between a 5% crit mempo and a 6% crit mempo is only, technically 20% on ONE stat, yet they have a significantly different value on the AH. We've already seen how badly we underestimate how much people will do for 1% here, 2% there, 5% there to pretend like 1% or 5% is insignificant. I don't think it's wise to continue to be naive about this subject.

Quote from shaggy

Quote from Solmyr77

Your point is fair in theory but practice would crush it. The odds of finding a Skorn that is within range of 20% of the ones that are available on the AH and affordable are still extremely small. Look at those high end people who still use ilvl62 amulets from the AH instead of crafted ones.

This idea only tips the odds of finding good gear in our favor, which is brilliant. This does not create characters that are 120% times as powerful as before. Not even close, I doubt a 5% increase in power, maybe 1%.

That 1-5% increase is already enough for people to dismiss entire builds. That 1-5% could mean the difference between having PvP and having completely unbalanced PvP.

I have never argued that finding top items is common, or easy, or anything along those lines. I'm the first person to tell you it's not common. That's EXACTLY what makes this even worse. You find a near-perfect Skorn, you keep it, and now you have a weapon that is 20% better than anything anyone else can have until they get lucky and find their own.

In a game of RNG where there's no way to actually guarantee that you'll find your own items (although Loot 2.0 should change that) it seems really insane to give a 20% bonus to the stats on the item coupled with ANOTHER property to the people who did, indeed, get lucky.

All you're doing is making the lucky people even more powerful and the unlucky people that much further behind. Why would you want that system? It's a good idea on paper, but in practice... as Ruksak said, it just doesn't pass the "smell test." The game is already based on luck... quite heavily. Isn't the whole idea of Loot 2.0 to de-emphasize luck because that system really wasn't working?

Quote from ruksak

There's just something about this idea that doesn't past the smell test. It's too good.

For such an idea to really work without spiraling out of control, there needs to be a penalty, something to give pause when considering claiming it as "pristine".

An example would be; You can only have one Pristine item equipped at a time. As well, when you claim it as Pristine, it should have a high gold cost AND.....bound to your account. It now only has intrinsic value, it's value as a tradeable item is gone in trade for this powerful adaptation you call "pristine".

Quote from Solmyr77

Quote from shaggy

Quote from WarlockHolmez

Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.

The main issue is, once you do find that nice "pristine" Skorn, you have become 20% more powerful in that slot. The game isn't exactly super-difficult as it is, so you are, for all intents and purposes, creating a MASSIVE point of balance concern.

Do you balance monsters around these "pristine" items, or do you just let people who get pristine items have an even easier gameplay experience?

I mean you're basically proposing a Skorn that has max stats of 1600-1700 DPS, 240% critical damage, 7.20% life leech, and a BONUS property. How does such a massive increase in stats work with monsters that have to be killable? Is MP10 going to become only for "pristine"-geared toons? Or will "pristine" items just make it that if you're farming MP10 you'll be able to do it 20% faster, thus mandating "pristine" items for efficiency?

Your point is fair in theory but practice would crush it. The odds of finding a Skorn that is within range of 20% of the ones that are available on the AH and affordable are still extremely small. Look at those high end people who still use ilvl62 amulets from the AH instead of crafted ones.

This idea only tips the odds of finding good gear in our favor, which is brilliant. This does not create characters that are 120% times as powerful as before. Not even close, I doubt a 5% increase in power, maybe 1%.

Quote from Mutilate24

Maybe I misunderstood your idea but it sounds like:

Find awesome Skorn, it has awesome bonuses because I found it.
Go to sell/trade the same Skorn and it loses extra attributes and ~20% stats.

Is that right? If so, then the issue is that the item becomes devalued at trade. Sure, that Skorn could still be sold or traded but an items value is inherent to its stats so all of a sudden my BiS item becomes middle of the pack at best. A quick glance at the economy shows middle of the pack stuff is all but useless. I want to have that flexibility to know that if I get a really good item I can use it or get "full market value" for it so I can potentially get something else that I could use. That's all.

Not to beat a dead horse but again the AH does not supply itself and I think it's a tad disingeuine to phrase things in a way that makes it seem like people are just going to the AH and buying items like you would from an in game vendor. Sure people buy items from the AH, but it's a player driven economy and you are in essence trading.

The Mystic seems like a better balance as it gives the players choice. There is a little risk versus reward excitement with it, or at least based on what we know now. The Pristine versus Worn system doesn't give me choice; it takes some away if I am being honest.

I'm not meaning to take a big old dump on your idea, and I hope it's not reading that way. Just offering up my opinions on the matter.


Edit: Shaggy's point is excellent as well and another point that would need to be taken into consideration with a system like this.

• Find a Pristine Item that won't be one you were looking for / won't work with your current build/class.
• Decide to adapt to that item (if it's even a good base roll), save it for later/alts, or sell it.
• I still feel a large portion will be sold if this is implemented correctly.
• (These seem like better choices than the current to me anyways)

Quote from shaggy

Quote from WarlockHolmez

Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.

The main issue is, once you do find that nice "pristine" Skorn, you have become 20% more powerful in that slot. The game isn't exactly super-difficult as it is, so you are, for all intents and purposes, creating a MASSIVE point of balance concern.

Do you balance monsters around these "pristine" items, or do you just let people who get pristine items have an even easier gameplay experience?

I mean you're basically proposing a Skorn that has max stats of 1600-1700 DPS, 240% critical damage, 7.20% life leech, and a BONUS property. How does such a massive increase in stats work with monsters that have to be killable? Is MP10 going to become only for "pristine"-geared toons? Or will "pristine" items just make it that if you're farming MP10 you'll be able to do it 20% faster, thus mandating "pristine" items for efficiency?

Quote from Snap7

Not a bad idea, in fact it's pretty good. I posted a similar suggestion a while ago as well. My idea was that you had the option to imbue an item at the blacksmith, this increased all stats by X% and made it account bound. To imbue was expensive and needed reagents found from specific areas, to greater diversify endgame. I'd hate to find something for a friend and not be able to trade it to him, especially if he was in the same game, so I'm not sure trading should flat out ruin an item by labelling it "worn".

Like others have said, loot 2.0 is on it's way and I have faith in Blizzard that they will vastly improve the game once again with the introduction of a new and improved loot system. At least I hope.

Quote from Mutilate24

Quote from Skelos

@Mutilate24 You are exactly right - everyone will go for that XYZ imba build. In fact if they make loot 2.0 as diverse as possible, we will have countless XYZ imba builds. The problem is that to make such a build yourself, you'll have to farm with years (or your bot for those who runs such) to get those build improving properties you want. So the most devoted players will have the strongest builds and OP idea adds to this too.

If anything the OP's suggestion exacerbates the issue. Diablo is a loot game with a heavy trading component. It's not reasonable to assume you will get everything you want (the key is want here) by yourself. The AH, regardless of its less than stellar implementation, offers players a nice and tidy point of access to trading. Take it away and the trading will continue, and probably move "offline" as it did in Diablo 2. Suggestions like the OPs are a strike against the AH/RMAH, simple as that. The trading component needs to be there and needs to be done in a way where Blizzard can keep it contained. I know I don't have the desire, or time to "farm for years" but I still enjoy the item hunt anyway. I certainly don't want to be pigeonholed if I do find something really nice, but not specifically nice for me.

Quote from Mutilate24

My main issue with this approach is that lots of items are going to end up being vendor trash with a system like this. Let's say you are farming on a main that is able to easily farm mid to high MP. You get an awesome Skorn (or whatever) drop but it's not an upgrade or side grade for you. In the current game you have options now, flip that item on the AH to make some gold which may then allow you to buy another item that would be an upgrade (people seem to forget that the AH does not supply itself and selling an item for gold and then buying another item is the same thing as trading an item for another item. How many minds did I just blow right there, be honest?). Or you could give it to a friend who would benefit from that item. With your system that awesome Skorn will probably end up being completely devalued once it leaves your possession.

It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?

Quote from Mutilate24

If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?

Quote from Edriel

Enjoy WarlockHolmez!
I translated your idea in italian and posted it on the italian forum.
Let's see what happens

Quote from Skelos

The reason I made an account is that I really liked the OP idea (once again clapping for it).

I am on the side of whats best for D3 and the RMAH is a parasite for D3. Just as the bots are. They can kill both with one patch, you name it.

And loot 2.0 will be a failure as long as they don't realize that you don't have to balance Diablo - its not an RTS. You should have weaker and stronger builds, thats the whole point of it and thats what Jay Wilson never managed to understand. But for these builds to become stronger, you don't need to pick the right skills, you need to have the right items. Items which have build improving properties. And from the gamescom screens I didn't saw such, so I am really skeptical about loot 2.0.