@doriq: would you say that of my monk as well? I'm totally open to where you think I could become less squishy... while still keeping dps... could you also post a link to the monk you're talking about?
@adhal - great insights man - thanks. I actually agree with your points about dps - and to be honest I didn't actually know that MoC-OA applied to whole party. That's pretty sexy. I don't actually mind who does the most dps to be honest... Hell give it to the WDs - they seem to get the skin slapped off them most of the time. I guess my main gripe - and it seems a lot of people have picked up on this - is that you just can't get close to the LS of a barb. I guess this irritates me because I've changed from a 3500 LOH build to trying to get high dps and LS in order to farm. monks simply cannot stand up to the abuse that barbs can take. not even close. you need about 3000 life per hit to be able to stand in the shit. with 80% damage reduction in inferno on monsters... it's pretty dismal trying to achieve this on 3% LS. Yes. I'd love to get that 3% LS echoing fury.... but at close to a billion gold this is just crazy street... I totally don't want to see barbs nerfed - they're a great class - and when they're built right they're awesome to watch. Monks should be too.... but I just feel something lacking there... they just aren't tough enough...
@diseasept - haha no man. It's a big deal though... there's a large imbalance between the two classes. Should there be or shouldn't there be? what say you?
@diseasept: how is it fair that barbs can have 6% LS with ease, not to mention more from skills? If you're going high dps you cant use LOH. LS is your only option. If you want to survive on MP10 you need both high dps and high LS. Take all other factors and set them aside and it comes down to just that. monks cannot regen health as well as barbs. If monks could mitigate more damage then it might even out, but as I hope I've pointed out that just isn't the case...
Well - good points all - but I can't help but notice you're not actually disagreeing with Mortac's dps and ehp summary there Rhye. I've had a look at your monk and you can't argue that you must have spent a ton of gold on that gear There are VERY VERY few monks doing 200k dps... whereas there are many barbs that easily do that and more. I must have been a bit vague in my OP - what I meant was monks tend to end up relegated to the roll of tank because they just get too squishy on the high end. this clearly isn't true for you - but I think you'll agree IS true for 99% of monks. Your weapons alone cost more than a billion in gold now. a barb with about 100m in gold can easily kit out to do higher dps. That just isn't right to my mind...
thanks orangedrop - some interesting points. Let me clarify some of what I said:
firstly, VERY few monks use full Inna - it's WAY too low on resists - and that's my point. to get a monk over 100k dps your resists end up in the toilet. I've never seen a monk with 100k dps and 800 resists. Have you? double resists is a BIG deal to monks. It's such a big deal that Bliz have said that they'd love to do something about the 'compulsory' passive OWE - but they recognise that it's so tied to monk gear now that it would be unfair to change it. But that's part of my point - it's easy to have double resists, and use all the cool attacks you're talking about if you want to stay sub 100k. The minute you want to do real dps the build becomes cookie-cut, with very little space for variation. Yes you can go single resist on an item - but then you've got inferior resists AND you cant do the dps that barbs do. Karpo touches on this a lot in the post above yours. Also, as Karpo says, serenity is an 'oh shit' use only. It's not effective in battle... if you have huge LS you dont need it anyway - and this is where the barb is so strong... barbs simply dont need escape mechanisms...
monk tanks tend to have pathetic dps. sure they're nice to have in the party - but what incentive is there to use this build? you cannot play high MP at all... they probably couldn't even kill Deckard Cain... If Bliz want monks to be tanks and barbs to be damage dealers ok fine - but then at least make monk gear viable for SOME sort of decent dps. why create incentive to play high MP when it's pretty much impossible for monks? I get what you're saying about gear planning - ok suggest a monk build that can clear mp10. the AoE in mp10 is impossible for a monk sub 800 resists to handle. And if your dps is less than 100k well... go fetch some coffee, because each fight is going to take ages. It's just not viable...
I do love playing a monk. Let me start by first saying this. But (and please correct me if you feel I'm wrong), they're not a patch on Barbs. When you start out as a monk everything is great. You can get the highest resists in the game with OWE, and you're doing decent dps. you've probably also got LOH on weps so you're pretty much unkillable. What a great char...
The second you hit 100k dps things change. Everything that was cool about a monk is pretty much gone. Your LOH is gone from your weps in favour of LS - because LOH weps have relatively low dps and your sockets have shifted from purple to green in any event. Barbs can get LS on belts - so you're already down to a measly 3% vs the Barb 6% if you've managed to get a decent 3% LS OH. you can try scrounge some LOH on rings...but best case scenario you're looking at 500 LOH.
Resists? you're lucky if 3 or 4 of your items have double resists. Compare Immortal King set to Inna. 80 RA is pretty much standard on IK gear. How many monks have the cash to cough for 80 RA Innas?
you will spend a truck of gold on getting a 100k monk. a truck. Getting a 100k barb is easy. you cant tell me that a Skorn bearing ww barb doing ridiculous dps doesn't irritate you. And if that Skorn happens to have LOH on it that barb with his/her 6% LS is going to be pretty much unstoppable. And of course ww means that the slow proc of the Skorn is ignored. How nice. Because all their skills focus on improving dps, they can afford a resists shout - so their resists are actually higher than monks... We've given up with the RA shout by this time and we're using overawe.
so we're more squishy with a lot less dps than a barb. OWE just doesn't happen because no monk set items have double resists. Well not ones that can be bought for realistic sums at any rate.
Barbs are 10x cheaper, do more dps and are tougher. And with that ridiculous farting ww nonsense they run 2x faster so can farm much more efficiently. sure, a belt with LS for a monk might help... but short of that what's the solution? high dps used to work for tearing up elites before they could damage you. This doesn't work with high MP. I know a lot of barbs that can handle mp8+. I don't know any monks that can survive at that skill.
Please....correct me if I'm wrong. If I've built a rubbish monk then please, show me the error of my ways.
Here's my monk Whistle. I'd love to be corrected on this. As tanks, monks SHOULD be equal to barbs. I've seen so many 20k dps monk tanks that I HAVE to wonder how they aren't pulling their hair out at mp5+. Do you drink your coffee while you kill something??
RA 800, LS 6%, DPS 150k. This is easy for a barb. How do we do it?
Well commendable that you've gotten together a decent inna's set - although two of the four pieces don't have any resists on - so you might want to start there - get resists on EVERYthing. The one main problem with going for all Inna is that you can't get double resists - so your overall resists are going to be a lot lower than they could be. It's actually a huge oversight on the part of Blizzard there - make the best monk gear without the possibility of double resists.
Another area you can improve in is getting some LOH or LS (probably at your stage of gear LOH would be better) on your weps. Without any, your resists and dps are too low to keep you alive against anything over MP 3. Also you can try get some BIS items - like Vile Ward for shoulders - they're quite cheap now.
to be honest, the final two bonuses for the full Inna set are just not worth it - consider switching to Natalya's for the 7% crit, or the BIs belt - Witching Hour. Pushing up your crit damage will greatly improve your dps as your crit chance is decent - you might want to look at swapping your amu to get this...
Finally, you can improve your dex quite a bit - especially on your rings... and a bit more attack speed on them won't hurt.
Major things then: improve your resists by swapping out Inna's that have resists on and get some LOH.
hope this helps
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my monk Whistle.
the problem I'm having is that LOH weps just dont do enough damage and LS weps dont heal enough... but then again Im in that painful process of converting from LOH to LS... and only at 60k dps unbuffed...with 3% LS. ouch.
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firstly, VERY few monks use full Inna - it's WAY too low on resists - and that's my point. to get a monk over 100k dps your resists end up in the toilet. I've never seen a monk with 100k dps and 800 resists. Have you? double resists is a BIG deal to monks. It's such a big deal that Bliz have said that they'd love to do something about the 'compulsory' passive OWE - but they recognise that it's so tied to monk gear now that it would be unfair to change it. But that's part of my point - it's easy to have double resists, and use all the cool attacks you're talking about if you want to stay sub 100k. The minute you want to do real dps the build becomes cookie-cut, with very little space for variation. Yes you can go single resist on an item - but then you've got inferior resists AND you cant do the dps that barbs do. Karpo touches on this a lot in the post above yours. Also, as Karpo says, serenity is an 'oh shit' use only. It's not effective in battle... if you have huge LS you dont need it anyway - and this is where the barb is so strong... barbs simply dont need escape mechanisms...
monk tanks tend to have pathetic dps. sure they're nice to have in the party - but what incentive is there to use this build? you cannot play high MP at all... they probably couldn't even kill Deckard Cain... If Bliz want monks to be tanks and barbs to be damage dealers ok fine - but then at least make monk gear viable for SOME sort of decent dps. why create incentive to play high MP when it's pretty much impossible for monks? I get what you're saying about gear planning - ok suggest a monk build that can clear mp10. the AoE in mp10 is impossible for a monk sub 800 resists to handle. And if your dps is less than 100k well... go fetch some coffee, because each fight is going to take ages. It's just not viable...
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The second you hit 100k dps things change. Everything that was cool about a monk is pretty much gone. Your LOH is gone from your weps in favour of LS - because LOH weps have relatively low dps and your sockets have shifted from purple to green in any event. Barbs can get LS on belts - so you're already down to a measly 3% vs the Barb 6% if you've managed to get a decent 3% LS OH. you can try scrounge some LOH on rings...but best case scenario you're looking at 500 LOH.
Resists? you're lucky if 3 or 4 of your items have double resists. Compare Immortal King set to Inna. 80 RA is pretty much standard on IK gear. How many monks have the cash to cough for 80 RA Innas?
you will spend a truck of gold on getting a 100k monk. a truck. Getting a 100k barb is easy. you cant tell me that a Skorn bearing ww barb doing ridiculous dps doesn't irritate you. And if that Skorn happens to have LOH on it that barb with his/her 6% LS is going to be pretty much unstoppable. And of course ww means that the slow proc of the Skorn is ignored. How nice. Because all their skills focus on improving dps, they can afford a resists shout - so their resists are actually higher than monks... We've given up with the RA shout by this time and we're using overawe.
so we're more squishy with a lot less dps than a barb. OWE just doesn't happen because no monk set items have double resists. Well not ones that can be bought for realistic sums at any rate.
Barbs are 10x cheaper, do more dps and are tougher. And with that ridiculous farting ww nonsense they run 2x faster so can farm much more efficiently. sure, a belt with LS for a monk might help... but short of that what's the solution? high dps used to work for tearing up elites before they could damage you. This doesn't work with high MP. I know a lot of barbs that can handle mp8+. I don't know any monks that can survive at that skill.
Please....correct me if I'm wrong. If I've built a rubbish monk then please, show me the error of my ways.
Here's my monk Whistle. I'd love to be corrected on this. As tanks, monks SHOULD be equal to barbs. I've seen so many 20k dps monk tanks that I HAVE to wonder how they aren't pulling their hair out at mp5+. Do you drink your coffee while you kill something??
RA 800, LS 6%, DPS 150k. This is easy for a barb. How do we do it?
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Well commendable that you've gotten together a decent inna's set - although two of the four pieces don't have any resists on - so you might want to start there - get resists on EVERYthing. The one main problem with going for all Inna is that you can't get double resists - so your overall resists are going to be a lot lower than they could be. It's actually a huge oversight on the part of Blizzard there - make the best monk gear without the possibility of double resists.
Another area you can improve in is getting some LOH or LS (probably at your stage of gear LOH would be better) on your weps. Without any, your resists and dps are too low to keep you alive against anything over MP 3. Also you can try get some BIS items - like Vile Ward for shoulders - they're quite cheap now.
to be honest, the final two bonuses for the full Inna set are just not worth it - consider switching to Natalya's for the 7% crit, or the BIs belt - Witching Hour. Pushing up your crit damage will greatly improve your dps as your crit chance is decent - you might want to look at swapping your amu to get this...
Finally, you can improve your dex quite a bit - especially on your rings... and a bit more attack speed on them won't hurt.
Major things then: improve your resists by swapping out Inna's that have resists on and get some LOH.
hope this helps
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my monk Whistle.
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