I have a theoretical build in progress with this ring as a core part of the damage output. Stay tuned, and we may see a new wizard meta soon! No more Firebird's top tier if this pans out as I see it will.
Therefore, in my opinion, this ring is going to be god tier for wizards (unless things don't pan out in theory...); so to all the naysayers, it probably isn't a ring for your playstyle, build, or class; or you haven't seen a way to incorporate to increase your potency yet. That does not mean that it does not have an application at all for anyone, and hopefully we will soon be changing your opinion. For everyone else, keep up the theory crafting with different radical builds for this ring!
Can anyone answer or direct myself to how this interaction actually works in-game PTS? (actual testing, not conjecture pretty please!)
- You have the 4 piece set bonus of Magnum Opus, the new wizard set equipped
- You have a 150-200% new elemental ring equipped and cycling through Arcane, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Arcane.. a full cycle lasting 20 sec, 5 per element
- You cast Slow Time on target
What is happening here now?
- First : Will the elemental damage even apply from the ring to the Slow Time damage at all in any way? Does this item actually work as the "highest Element" for this skill interaction with the 4 piece set? Will the ring actually allow you to deal all four damage types when casting Slow Time on enemies; or will you not see any change over time at all with a constant elemental damage type applied?
- Second: Will the elemental damage of the individual bubble cycle as well (if first question's answer is "it works"), or will the individual bubble snapshot the elemental damage type of the ring until expiration? If it cycles elemental types with the changing of the ring's elemental type, does it use the dynamic % elemental damage of the new element cycled currently? If it does snapshot the damage type, does the % modifier from the ring persist through the duration of the bubble, or is it dynamic and varies with your current element % value of that type, losing damage % as the ring cycles?
(i.e. does the damage type change or remain the same per bubble, how does the % dmg interact)
- Third: Does this elemental damage count as Elemental Exposure, does it proc Tal Rasha's elemental meteors and 75% damage increases, does it proc conflagration, cold blooded, paralysis, temporal flux, arcane dynamo, does it proc Enchant Weapon: Ignite or Electrify, does it proc a percentage of arcane power on critical strike values, does it proc weapon or armor Secondaries such as Wizardspike's Frozen Orb, Shard of Hate's Cold or Lightning procs, Thunderfury's Chain Lightning, Goldskin, Moonlight Ward, Frostburn, Ess of Johan, or any other item proc such but not limited to stun/freeze/fear?
(i.e. - What Proc's with it, or what does not proc with it? Also, do the individual element types proc their "on certain elemental hit" effects?)
- Fourth: Do Illusion's Slow Time bubbles deal the same damage? Do they deal any damage? Do they deal reduced damage? Do they deal variable damage or consistent damage, simply what interaction to the elemental ring do they have, if any at all? If they have interaction with the elemental ring, do they cycle with it or snapshot? Difficult question here to answer, not as important as the others but still important. (This assumes no stacking of bubbles of illusions to deal additional damage (only more area coverage, like blizzard); unless the damage dealt was a small fraction of non-illusion bubbles, if so it may stack?)
(i.e. - How do illusion bubbles actually work, especially in relation to the 4pc damage and elemental ring cycle)
- Fifth: Does having extra % elemental damage on gear override the interaction with the elemental ring and 4 piece Slow TIme elemental damage types? Does having a single % elemental damage bug out the element types, or does the highest "sheet" elemental type overrule everything (hopefully this is the case)?
This is a wall of text, but are some important questions that need to be answered. ( I may have a build that MAY ( or may not ) do some significant damage with high survival, if I could get some clarification on these important mechanics from the community ) If everything "works how it seems it should", which I am hoping it does, this could be awesome (which I will explain later :P).
Thank you very much for helping out with this process!
-New testing involving all Electrocute Onehand Combinations
-Reasearch needed to determine if % movement speed modifiers affect base movement lockout time in any way
Also, the average player's question to this issue and my response:
Have you tried a one handed sword vs a one handed axe with same APS?
I made that switch recently and felt like my kiting ability went to pot, but I have no evidence, just thought you might have tried that combo.
Yes, I have tried that combo, but only in regards to frenzy, bash, cleave, and basic attack. I have not tested it with any other skill combinations, ect.
Imo, one hand spears and daggers seem to have the most potential to be non-normalized to have much less of a movement lockout time then expected, and thats only taking into account my experience and not including dual wield. Maces, swords, and axes for me were much harder to visually comfirm irregularities, but "feel" like there also is some disparity between the movement lockout times of the types.
Again, more case by case research is needed...
Edit: For anyone willing to spare some time to test, very cheap normal weapon types sell for under 1000 gold a piece on the AH, if not under 200 gold. For those of you willing to look into it, the investment has a very small cost but mainly the time you put into it in relation to your specific case.
Latherus, has a well written post on the Bug Section thread involving his personal experience with the issue from a Witch Doctor's perspective, even pre-patch. Long read, but informative none the less.
all observations, no data, and no clue what other mechanics are taken into account when calculating animation speeds
Yes, these are all observations with a biased opinion since I'm human. I do not have the tools or the qualifications to accurately describe the mechanics in a detailed numerical manner, nor would a vast majority of indivduals.
Most of these variances are taking place with timeframes of under one and a half seconds, a very small window to investigate.
Don't believe me or don't understand what I am saying? I have listed a few tests you can do for yourself, and I will list again here:
-Obtain two identical daggers, using basic attack as a skill, try to move as soon as you can after an attack with one dagger equipped, two daggers equipped, and no daggers equipped
-Obtain a 2h Mace and 2h Polearm, repeat
-Obtain 1h Spear and 1h Mace, repeat.
These "tests" that can be done in under 5 minutes that have been determined by myself to show the disparity are simple ways to "see for yourself" that a problem actually exists, and that there are probably more scenarios that this can occur.
As for the no clue about what other mechanics take place when calculating animation speeds, I do not know if animation speeds directly are even the problem and I doubt that they are. The issue is the Movement Lockout Time incurred by varying weapons, each of which have different animations.
Also, what large mechanic is altered by just switching weapons? If you could explain, please do so.
Yeah, instead of being more realistic, everyone should be able to fire the skill off instantly, so fast thatyou can't even see, but the time between these super fast attack should be based on attack speed.
I don't fully understand the intentions of this post, but it raises the question: Realistic speeds + Unrealistic speeds COEXIST at the moment
ok i misunderstood the attack speed issue, but it still seems like a big problem, hit and run is probably a lot of peoples strategies, and unknowingly to them their 'hit and run build' is nerfed if there is a limit on you being able to run after you attack.
and is still a silly glitch, that could eat you up in inferno.
Misunderstanding is fine! I just want to clarify everything so that misinformation does not amplify an already complex issue.
And yes! I went from Act 3 to the end with my polearm and after I put on a mace I said, "No way am i even touching A3+ with this dang mace, gotta get that polearm back from the AH, hope it doesnt sell!"
Edit: Just did a test with Furious charge VS Mace/Polearm/Sword of near identical base attack speed. I seemed that no matter what weapon I used, when I used Frenzy every weapon prevented me from using Furious Charge for nearly the same time, but some allowed a much longer period of movement before I could use Furious Charge.
I will be using frenzy on a bunch of enemies and quickly spam furious charge because I am about to die. The ability will not go off when I know I cast it in plenty of time and I will die.
My build relys on Furious Charge + Merciless Assault rune to a degree I could not live without it at the moment (even with it's issues), so I can relate to your standpoint.
I also have had many times where Furious Charge has had issues that I believe I could attribute to Movement Lockout Times, and I did see an increase in Lockout after the charge ended when I was using a 2h mace compared to the seemingly faster polearm.
Thank you for one of the first actual Skill + Side Effects seen posts this topic has seen, I will do more research into Furous Charge now because of this.
Basically, it ends up being a reduction in DPS in fights where you need it, and reflects the stat pages DPS in fights where it doesn't matter.
To summarize, what we could call "secondary effects" on damage output due to the primary "movement lockout" being affected. Secondary effects are much harder to put values to.
Edit: To show you that in my opinion that I agree on suvivability and damage output being affected, from my Bug post :
"From my experience, being able to move away after you attack in a timely manner is a key survival trait necessary for high end play. Movement lockout times could be DIRECTELY related to damage reduction, survivability, damage output, and kiting effectiveness. And my in my opinion, they are directly related, just not at an empirical level."
if you have to wait before you can move again with certain weapons the game is basically LIENG to you about your attack speed
I just fully comprehended what you were trying to get at just now. But it seems attacks per second correlating to overall attack speed are dead on if not very close to 100% accurate over a periodic timeframe without moving.
The issue is that movement lockout time is basically a second mechanic that can cause what we could call secondary effects to movement alone.
All in all, movement, not attack speed or "DPS", seems to be the one to suffer, which has major secondary side effects.
A good example to relate this to would be, the jailer affix.
Say you are jailed for 0.2 seconds per jail, compared to 0.5 seconds per jail. You still can stand still and deal damage without suffering any direct side effects, but when the time comes to move, you would want to know why there is a 0.3 second disparity.
they need to fix this before they fix anything about item drops, skills, auction house economy, or anything else
This is the reason I must continue informing about this issue, too many other "issues" of seemingly smaller scale are getting wider recongnition.
I don't know if there is a "fix", but there must be research done into the issue to determine if this is "working as intended" or a sign of unpolished mechanics or oversight.
0
I have a theoretical build in progress with this ring as a core part of the damage output. Stay tuned, and we may see a new wizard meta soon! No more Firebird's top tier if this pans out as I see it will.
Therefore, in my opinion, this ring is going to be god tier for wizards (unless things don't pan out in theory...); so to all the naysayers, it probably isn't a ring for your playstyle, build, or class; or you haven't seen a way to incorporate to increase your potency yet. That does not mean that it does not have an application at all for anyone, and hopefully we will soon be changing your opinion. For everyone else, keep up the theory crafting with different radical builds for this ring!
0
Can anyone answer or direct myself to how this interaction actually works in-game PTS? (actual testing, not conjecture pretty please!)
- You have the 4 piece set bonus of Magnum Opus, the new wizard set equipped
- You have a 150-200% new elemental ring equipped and cycling through Arcane, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Arcane.. a full cycle lasting 20 sec, 5 per element
- You cast Slow Time on target
What is happening here now?
- First : Will the elemental damage even apply from the ring to the Slow Time damage at all in any way? Does this item actually work as the "highest Element" for this skill interaction with the 4 piece set? Will the ring actually allow you to deal all four damage types when casting Slow Time on enemies; or will you not see any change over time at all with a constant elemental damage type applied?
- Second: Will the elemental damage of the individual bubble cycle as well (if first question's answer is "it works"), or will the individual bubble snapshot the elemental damage type of the ring until expiration? If it cycles elemental types with the changing of the ring's elemental type, does it use the dynamic % elemental damage of the new element cycled currently? If it does snapshot the damage type, does the % modifier from the ring persist through the duration of the bubble, or is it dynamic and varies with your current element % value of that type, losing damage % as the ring cycles?
(i.e. does the damage type change or remain the same per bubble, how does the % dmg interact)
- Third: Does this elemental damage count as Elemental Exposure, does it proc Tal Rasha's elemental meteors and 75% damage increases, does it proc conflagration, cold blooded, paralysis, temporal flux, arcane dynamo, does it proc Enchant Weapon: Ignite or Electrify, does it proc a percentage of arcane power on critical strike values, does it proc weapon or armor Secondaries such as Wizardspike's Frozen Orb, Shard of Hate's Cold or Lightning procs, Thunderfury's Chain Lightning, Goldskin, Moonlight Ward, Frostburn, Ess of Johan, or any other item proc such but not limited to stun/freeze/fear?
(i.e. - What Proc's with it, or what does not proc with it? Also, do the individual element types proc their "on certain elemental hit" effects?)
- Fourth: Do Illusion's Slow Time bubbles deal the same damage? Do they deal any damage? Do they deal reduced damage? Do they deal variable damage or consistent damage, simply what interaction to the elemental ring do they have, if any at all? If they have interaction with the elemental ring, do they cycle with it or snapshot? Difficult question here to answer, not as important as the others but still important. (This assumes no stacking of bubbles of illusions to deal additional damage (only more area coverage, like blizzard); unless the damage dealt was a small fraction of non-illusion bubbles, if so it may stack?)
(i.e. - How do illusion bubbles actually work, especially in relation to the 4pc damage and elemental ring cycle)
- Fifth: Does having extra % elemental damage on gear override the interaction with the elemental ring and 4 piece Slow TIme elemental damage types? Does having a single % elemental damage bug out the element types, or does the highest "sheet" elemental type overrule everything (hopefully this is the case)?
This is a wall of text, but are some important questions that need to be answered. ( I may have a build that MAY ( or may not
) do some significant damage with high survival, if I could get some clarification on these important mechanics from the community ) If everything "works how it seems it should", which I am hoping it does, this could be awesome (which I will explain later :P).
Thank you very much for helping out with this process!
0
0
-New testing involving all Electrocute Onehand Combinations
-Reasearch needed to determine if % movement speed modifiers affect base movement lockout time in any way
Also, the average player's question to this issue and my response:
0
Yes, I have tried that combo, but only in regards to frenzy, bash, cleave, and basic attack. I have not tested it with any other skill combinations, ect.
Imo, one hand spears and daggers seem to have the most potential to be non-normalized to have much less of a movement lockout time then expected, and thats only taking into account my experience and not including dual wield. Maces, swords, and axes for me were much harder to visually comfirm irregularities, but "feel" like there also is some disparity between the movement lockout times of the types.
Again, more case by case research is needed...
Edit: For anyone willing to spare some time to test, very cheap normal weapon types sell for under 1000 gold a piece on the AH, if not under 200 gold. For those of you willing to look into it, the investment has a very small cost but mainly the time you put into it in relation to your specific case.
0
0
Latherus, has a well written post on the Bug Section thread involving his personal experience with the issue from a Witch Doctor's perspective, even pre-patch. Long read, but informative none the less.
0
Yes, these are all observations with a biased opinion since I'm human. I do not have the tools or the qualifications to accurately describe the mechanics in a detailed numerical manner, nor would a vast majority of indivduals.
Most of these variances are taking place with timeframes of under one and a half seconds, a very small window to investigate.
Don't believe me or don't understand what I am saying? I have listed a few tests you can do for yourself, and I will list again here:
-Obtain two identical daggers, using basic attack as a skill, try to move as soon as you can after an attack with one dagger equipped, two daggers equipped, and no daggers equipped
-Obtain a 2h Mace and 2h Polearm, repeat
-Obtain 1h Spear and 1h Mace, repeat.
These "tests" that can be done in under 5 minutes that have been determined by myself to show the disparity are simple ways to "see for yourself" that a problem actually exists, and that there are probably more scenarios that this can occur.
As for the no clue about what other mechanics take place when calculating animation speeds, I do not know if animation speeds directly are even the problem and I doubt that they are. The issue is the Movement Lockout Time incurred by varying weapons, each of which have different animations.
Also, what large mechanic is altered by just switching weapons? If you could explain, please do so.
0
My hope is that this does not get attributed to latency or lag whatsoever. This is independant of latency due to the fact it is a game mechanic.
0
I don't fully understand the intentions of this post, but it raises the question: Realistic speeds + Unrealistic speeds COEXIST at the moment
Misunderstanding is fine! I just want to clarify everything so that misinformation does not amplify an already complex issue.
And yes! I went from Act 3 to the end with my polearm and after I put on a mace I said, "No way am i even touching A3+ with this dang mace, gotta get that polearm back from the AH, hope it doesnt sell!"
Edit: Just did a test with Furious charge VS Mace/Polearm/Sword of near identical base attack speed. I seemed that no matter what weapon I used, when I used Frenzy every weapon prevented me from using Furious Charge for nearly the same time, but some allowed a much longer period of movement before I could use Furious Charge.
0
I would consider gamebreaking any widespread issue that can have minimal effect on one player while having major side effects to another player.
Although you may disagree that this is in your idea of the word or meaning of gamebreaking, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
I would agree with you that this issue has been in existance since launch day at the least.
0
My build relys on Furious Charge + Merciless Assault rune to a degree I could not live without it at the moment (even with it's issues), so I can relate to your standpoint.
I also have had many times where Furious Charge has had issues that I believe I could attribute to Movement Lockout Times, and I did see an increase in Lockout after the charge ended when I was using a 2h mace compared to the seemingly faster polearm.
Thank you for one of the first actual Skill + Side Effects seen posts this topic has seen, I will do more research into Furous Charge now because of this.
0
To summarize, what we could call "secondary effects" on damage output due to the primary "movement lockout" being affected. Secondary effects are much harder to put values to.
Edit: To show you that in my opinion that I agree on suvivability and damage output being affected, from my Bug post :
"From my experience, being able to move away after you attack in a timely manner is a key survival trait necessary for high end play. Movement lockout times could be DIRECTELY related to damage reduction, survivability, damage output, and kiting effectiveness. And my in my opinion, they are directly related, just not at an empirical level."
0
I just fully comprehended what you were trying to get at just now. But it seems attacks per second correlating to overall attack speed are dead on if not very close to 100% accurate over a periodic timeframe without moving.
The issue is that movement lockout time is basically a second mechanic that can cause what we could call secondary effects to movement alone.
All in all, movement, not attack speed or "DPS", seems to be the one to suffer, which has major secondary side effects.
A good example to relate this to would be, the jailer affix.
Say you are jailed for 0.2 seconds per jail, compared to 0.5 seconds per jail. You still can stand still and deal damage without suffering any direct side effects, but when the time comes to move, you would want to know why there is a 0.3 second disparity.
0
This is the reason I must continue informing about this issue, too many other "issues" of seemingly smaller scale are getting wider recongnition.
I don't know if there is a "fix", but there must be research done into the issue to determine if this is "working as intended" or a sign of unpolished mechanics or oversight.