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Quote from MeatHeadMikhail

Also, past p800 you can just make up for the loss of primary, not so with the other stats.

That's not really true.

If you're p1000, and you have an amulet without primary stat, you're still going to have up to 750 less primary stat than someone else who is p1000 and has primary stat on their amulet. There isn't any "making up" for it. It's just a matter of what's best. 950 is still more than 200. 1150 is still more than 400. Regardless of Paragon level, you're still going to be short by a certain amount, not to mention that those levels require a pretty hefty amount of XP. The only question that needs to be asked is if primary stat is "worth it" for your build on a five-prop amulet.

That being said, this is where five-prop amulets (and rings) come into play. If you don't want to sacrifice stats, that option exists.

Quote from Bagstone

TL;DR: All cache items are completely being rolled when you open them (type, rarity, affixes).

Most reasonable people expected this was the case, but thank you very much for doing enough work to disprove that the items in the cache are predetermined. It was such a silly theory because it would have meant that cache items don't roll the same way as every other item in the game. I'm glad to see that there is data to debunk it.

Quote from UndeadProtoss

Once you start to feel strong you just move up to a new difficulty were you feel weak again. It's an oft made point by online reviewers and critics as well.

This was true of D2 with the /players command.

The fans more or less demanded that /players be reintroduced.

Jay gave us Monster Power. Josh revised that, basically, into what we have today.

People criticizing that aspect of D3 are suffering from nothing more than selective memories because the way D3 does it isn't fundamentally any different from how D2 did it.

Quote from Botter4Life

Witch Doctor

• Seasonal Legendary not yet implemented
• p1_CeremonialDagger_norm_season_01 (Name still TBD)
New Legendary Ceremonial Dagger

Soul Harvest now stacks up to 10 times

New BIS Jade doc item? much love for the WD these days....

Doubtful? The new Furnace looks more like a "BiS Jade WD item" than this ceremonial knife.

Consider it vs even Sun Keeper...

Lower base damage (since it's 1.4 APS vs 1.2 APS)

Up to 30% less elite damage

And, for that, you gain 10% int. Why? So you can overkill those pesky white monsters 10% harder and, still, kill elites slower? Noooo thank you.

Quote from Catalept

The 1-70 journey with quests and cutscenes and unlocking skills and all that stuff we consider to be a brief, annoying preamble is the main game for millions of people. For the rest of us, there's still very much a situation where your longevity is my dull grind. Sure, you could get 'longevity' from D3 by reducing droprates and XP by a factor ten, making it a year-long project to get even a single character geared... but longevity shouldn't be the aim, it should be a side-effect.

Thank you so fucking much. I love you dearly.

It makes me violently angry when people talk about "longevity" as if it's something that can, and should, be the #1 priority of the developers. Just reduce the drop rates so that everyone has to play 2,000 hours before they get good stuff. No! Don't do that! Make me keep playing because it's fun, not because you've created a Sisyphean task for me to complete.

ITT: Idiot who refuses to supply evidence not understanding the irony of everyone else debunking his theories with the same inside-out logic.

For the record, I know for a fact that Jesus was actually a Korean zombie who had a foot fetish and liked to be cuckolded while listening to Hootie and the Blowfish CDs because Steve Jobs went back in time to invent the CD player for our Lord and Savior. Furthermore, his mother, Mary, was actually a transgendered Puerto Rican rococo dancer whose stage name was Slutty Miguel whose favorite food was sushi and was also an avid fan of the WNBA. Jesus also had a half-brother from a legal adoption his father and gay life-partner (Stephen) had before Joseph realized he liked unshaven women more than oily men. His brother, 34 years his elder, and in fact older than both his parents, was named Evgeni and he liked to play Nintendo but never really understood why the fuck Battletoads had to be SO FUCKING HARD.

Don't ask me for proof. Just believe. Inhale deeply and believe.

/troll off

Quote from UndeadProtoss

Every spell is over the top, you don't have this unified sense of progression like you had in Diablo 2. Where you would start off with a weak skill like ice bolt and then over the course of your leveling process attain stronger skills that increased in effectiveness and became more visually potent as you put more skill points into them (think how you got more charged bolts the more points you put in).

I disagree completely.

Why in the world would you want to slog through garbage spells that are shitty-on-purpose so that you can appreciate the good ones? That's masochistic and it also means that stuff like icebolt weren't anything more than filler spells until you got to X level when you unlock <spell that's better in every circumstance>.

I don't want items that suck. I don't want skills that suck. I don't want the philosophy behind upgrading my character to be "hey, this item doesn't suck, and you've spend 30 levels getting nothing but things that do suck... so isn't that great?" We already have that with legendaries and it SUCKS. No one gives two shits about an Angel Hair Braid. They're speedbumps. They're fodder for enchanting and crafting. They are, by design, exactly the things that you say make character progression awesome in ARPGs.... yet the community absolutely hates them.

Quote from russell3773

Go back too actually being able too critically hit because of the legendary gems and other items that can make procs?

Even when DoTs could crit the crits couldn't proc things because they tick so damned frequently it would basically be 100% uptime even if you only put one DoT on one monster.

Nice work, Bagstone.

Your tables bring all the boys to the thread.

Quote from Deatherian

Well consider this guys, if majority of mobs can be killed with 1 soul harvest whether you're using Sunkeeper or Azurewrath, then perhaps having more ias in this instance will in fact benefit us. If using a slow, high-damaging weapon doesn't save you a round of Dotting->Harvest then casting faster would be more beneficial. Azurewrath also provides extra damage for Haunt which helps close the gap in damage range between it and Sunkeeper as well.

There are actual ways to test this, though.

The OP didn't test anything in a scientific fashion so his conclusions are clouded with heaps of ambiguity.

Just switching Sun Keeper for Azurewrath involves a lot of variables and even if you kill faster with Azurewrath it's logically wrong to conclude it's because of IAS (or APS). As someone from Reddit suggested, maybe it's just the high chance to freeze preventing monsters from escaping Soul Harvest range as much. As others pointed out only doing 5-8 rifts per setup isn't really enough to compensate for the hugely-random nature of the rifts either.

The simplest way to test this is to keep your gear static. Do not change any items. Remove all paragon points in int and all paragon points from the Offense tab. Then test each stat individually (int, CDR, IAS, CHC, CHD) with 50 points. Do this across roughly 50 rifts each, which should account for most of the randomness of rift tilesets, monster selection, and monster density. Then come back and give us information on each clear time (this is important so we can see outliers), as well as average clear time for the following:

Control group (0 points in int, CDR, IAS, CHC, CHD)
50 points in int (250 int), 0 points in everything else
50 points in CDR (10% CDR), 0 points in everything else
50 points in IAS (10% IAS), 0 points in everything else
50 points in CHC (5% CHC), 0 points in everything else
50 points in CHD (50% CHD), 0 points in everything else

With that information we could actually begin to evaluate how worthwhile each stat is. Now, much like WoW simming, some of the stats are going to be dependent on the player's current gear setup, so it would be helpful if someone who were to do this were using fairly-representative items. For instance, if a player had only 5% CHC on their gear, the value of CHC would be disproportionately higher than someone who had a "normal" amount of each stat.

Even with that shortcoming, that method will more closely isolate the variable (the stat which you're increasing) as opposed to just randomly swapping in items and doing a handful of rifts. There's simply too many variables which aren't controlled at all in the OPs data for it to be considered anything other than a hypothesis. Lump on top of that how most of the changes are statistically-insignificant given the outrageous margin of error from improper testing (his "base case" is 7:19, and everything except one scenario fell between +12 seconds and -19 seconds), and it's a wonder why this is even being discussed.

There are ways to gather information. What the OP did is not the correct way. When you don't gather information scientifically it really hurts your ability to draw conclusions from that data.

Interesting topic. However, I really don't feel like you've documented all the variables thoroughly enough for complete analysis.

I've found that rift density and monster types play a much more significant role in my clear times. For instance, if I get Corpse Raisers and Maggot Broods, I'm more likely to finish faster than if I have Mallet Lords, Morlu Incinerators, Death Maidens, and things that like to run away. Hopefully multiple rifts covered for that somewhat, but even by your outline I'm not sure that you isolated IAS adequately.

What would be interesting is if you had 0% IAS from paragon and did 50 rifts like that and then added a full 50 points for 10% IAS and did another 50 rifts like that. No other item swaps. Just 10% IAS difference.

EDIT
I'd just like to echo a lot of the responses you've received on Reddit as well. There are a ton of variables just on the weapon swap. Azurewrath vs Sun Keeper isn't simply a matter of IAS. There are differing base attack speeds, different stats, etc. It's very possible, as someone suggested, that a rather high chance to freeze helps Jades out because it keeps monsters grouped up better for SH. Who knows?

There is no doubt that 10% IAS > 0% IAS. If you're not sacrificing anything, in the case of Paragon, then surely it's going to help you clear faster. But it's a matter of how much faster you clear. You really should be doing this test with the EXACT SAME gear setup each time and 0% Paragon IAS for many runs and then 10% Paragon IAS for many runs. Demonstrate what value 10% IAS has in terms of total clear times across MANY runs, not just 5-8 per item swap. It will give a significantly-clearer picture one way or the other.

You've simply jumbled so many variables together with gear swaps that it's impossible to have any reasonable conclusion. One of the basic principles of attempting to evaluate a hypothesis is to isolate your variable. Without doing that it adds considerable "noise" to the results of the testing.

Quote from Catalept

Quote from Twoflower

There will always be a BiS item (mathematical fact guys) and the sooner we stop fighting, the sooner we will have peace.

Yeah, but if that BiS item is the same for every class and every build, you've got problems, and RROG is particularly problematic, because not only is it a tough slot to upgrade, it also makes other slots hard to upgrade.

This.

I'm OK with BiS items, but I think it's healthier for the game if they're on a spec-by-spec basis. I'm not fond of items that are across-the-board BiS. It makes me think back to Enigma in D2 and why it was bad.

That being said RoRG is particularly difficult to balance because its bonus means that it has to be balanced against other rings but that every other slot has to be balanced against itself. One of the reasons that Zunis and JH WDs use RoRG is because both Mask of Jeram and Quetzalcoatl are significantly stronger than the set helms. So even if RoRG was balanced against other rings, it would still be "necessary" for those builds because there's a fundamental power differential between those helms.

Quote fromClyphord
Why not just make it drop from all bounty caches? Remove the A1 exclusivity. Hell, make it drop out in the world, too! It'd still obviously be rare as piss. I've never seen a Thunderfury or Shard of Hate, so it's not like this is going to magically make everyone get them instantly.

Allowing it to drop in any act would be a decent start. The fact that such a powerful item is obtainable only from bounties in a specific act means that bounties in other acts are, instantly, less-interesting. I've started to do all A1-4 bounties per game now instead of just doing A1 bounties and it's actually more enjoyable because I'm repeating less content. It keeps everything feeling "fresher."

I can do this because, at the moment, I'm not looking for a RoRG. It's liberating. It makes the game feel significantly more fun even though bounties aren't as rewarding as they should be as compared with rifts. Adding variety is the single biggest thing they can do to encourage longevity. RoRG, unfortunately, removes variety.

Quote from Catalept

D3 already has too many tightly coupled systems. Bounties -> Rifts -> GRifts or GTFO. That's bad enough, as it disregards anyone who just wants to do bounties (that aren't Act I Normal), just wants to do Rifts, or (God forbid) actually prefers Story Mode (assuming 99% of Story Mode fans haven't already quit playing by now). True player freedom requires decoupled game options with appropriate reward structures.

The problem isn't with your train of thought, which is absolutely perfect. It lies with the attitude of the community. Ever since the BoA debate the general philosophy in "discussions" has amounted to "my way is the RIGHT way to play the game." I mean Josh basically green-lit that mentality by defining trading as "wrong" or "not fun" and then following that up with "Rifts are supposed to be the best farming spot" shortly into RoS.

By defining a correct way to play, a best area to farm, and being implicitly OK with limiting options he rubber-stamped the notion that going forward it's OK to have a best way to play and it's OK with everything else being inferior-by-design. That's why you keep hearing people asking for "incentives" to play seasons or "incentives" to do achievements. Most players don't need "incentives" to play hardcore, or ladders, or do achievements. We either play those modes or do those things because we like them.... or we ignore them.

The whole "incentive" bit is basically players keying in on Josh's philosophy that there should be one "best" way to play and everything else should languish in its wake and, more or less, begging for his blessing that their chosen playstyle will be what he picks as the #1 super excellent mega farming place. I mean there was a thread a few weeks ago with some guy saying that paragon LEVELS should roll over to standard from ladder... levels, not XP. He had a few other suggestions, but it was clear that he didn't want fairness, he just wanted ladders to be declared the "right" way to play and everyone else to get a big middle finger.

Unfortunately, this mentality is pervasive in the community right now because the developers clearly don't have the know-how, or maybe just the guts, to stop that train in its tracks.

Quote from oldschool_2o4f

Yeah, and I get the train of thought BUT... time, skill and effort SHOULD be rewarded....which goes totally against the almighty RNG, I know, but still...

Achievements do reward you. Achievement points are a point of ePeen for some and banner rewards are things that give you a degree of exclusivity without altering character power.

Every "reward" in the game doesn't have to make you crit harder. It's a shame that people can't do things because they find them fun. If it doesn't have +5 damage attached to it then it's garbage.

If you're not really interested in ePeen or cosmetic rewards then achievements, simply, aren't for you. And that's OK. Not everything has to be for everyone. The sooner the playerbase realizes and accepts this the sooner we get past this shit where everyone thinks that everything should be rewarded with character power and we can move away from this narcissistic "I should be rewarded for playing the game this way" mentality.

We should all be rewarded, relatively equally, for playing the game. Whether we have to restart on death, restart every X months, or never restart. Whether we're farming X, Y, or Z. Whether we're hunting achievements or not. If you want achievements to be "more rewarding" then the problem is that most achievements cannot be done in a rift... and since rifts are "the best way to play" that means that most achievements involve playing the game the "shitty" way.

Quote from ruksak

OP; you do realize that this was just simply a Blue informing us that the trading forum @Bnet is closing, right? How in the hell this led you to believe that this indicates 2.1 is launching....I have no fuckin' idea.

These conclusions are generally the result of boredom coupled with either extreme stupidity or complete lack of critical thinking.

BLIZZ B CLOSIN FORUM ON <date> ... MUST B FORESHADOWIN SUMTHIN ... *drools*

Quote from PicoPoco84

What legendary you get is(if any) determined upon receiving cache. I had a stash tab full of T4 caches when I copied to PTR, and the same cache that contained a RORG on PTR, also contained a RORG on live, only different stats. So legendary contents is rolled upon receiving, but not stats of it.

That's easily chalked up to RNG, though.

Open that same cache on the PTR 50 times, though, and if it always contains a RoRG, you might just be on to something.