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    posted a message on - Hey guys! Tokio here. -
    Hi Tokio!
    Posted in: Monk: The Inner Sanctuary
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    Quote from Kodaijin

    Quote from Talys
    ...I have a monk with 240k unbuffed dps...

    ~puts on sunglasses~ Mother of god. ~proceeds to nerd drool~

    Can I see your blizzard armory pretty please?

    It varies a little depending on the gear configuration I use (for instance, when farming, I might give up as much as 30k dps to get 28 radius), but here you go:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Talys-1767/hero/16576834
    http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/talys-1767/Lorelei/16576834
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    Quote from Emberos

    Quote from Talys

    I have done this (run spreadsheets) and must diagree with you. The difference between MP1 and MP4 on most static maps (like fields of misery) is less than 10 seconds for me -- like 1:38 versus 1:48; and up to MP6, it's another 20 seconds. Frankly, that's less time than I spend IDing stuff and pausing/chatting.

    Ok, and between MP6 and MP10? Because, barring you have the best gear I've ever seen, there is a breaking point for you where the next level up is not beneficial. For some people the difference between MP0 and MP4 is negligible because they overkill at MP0 and still one shot at MP4. But for that same person, they are just barely one-shotting MP4 mobs. And now that same person goes to MP8 . . . now there is a difference -- kill time has gone up much faster than xp/mf bonus. Sounds like your breaking point is higher than 95+% of the population, congratulations on that, but it is still there.

    Quote from Talys

    I completely agree that the point at which you can faceroll mobs is the best MP to farm.

    Also, you already agreed with me. No takebacks!! :D

    To be honest, I think we agree on most everything. I don't believe that solo, it will be ever efficient, even with the best gear in the game (let's just say, DiabloProgress #1 HeroScore, for simplicity) to play MP9 or 10.

    In groups, it's a little different; you can usually go 1-2 MP higher while still demolishing mobs, because their HP scales only 75%, while group damage scales more than 100%. By the latter, I am referring to stacking buffs -- for example, two monks will get you 8% ASI and 48% damage; WD will get you voodoo; wiz will give you ASI bubble; DH will give you MOD, etc.

    Put another way, my buffed damage goes through the roof in a group with great buffs, and our buffs complement each others', thereby allowing us to sneak in an extra MP or so (and offsetting the loss of a follower).
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    Quote from Nubtro

    Talys I´d like to know what you consider a "full clear" (areas) and how long it takes you to do such a run (solo). Wondering because I do almost full a3 clears (minus skycrown and) on higher MPs (most often 6) and 5 was the max number of legendaries I got in one run, like ever (well, twice lol). Most of the time, it´s 0-2. It´s not like you have more MF when we´re both maxed out.

    Agreeing with most of your points as MF directly affects legendary drop rates, except that the NV elite pack drop can also be a legendary, has been proven.

    Theorycrafters believed the legendary drop rate to be 1:2000 before 1.0.5, Blizzard said they doubled it so we assume it´s 1:1000 (drops not kills). This means around these drop rates (last column - max mf)

    MP HP/HP% DMG +XP +MF/GF +ITEM MAX MF LEGENDARY
    1) 1.5 150% 109.60% 10% 25% 1% +400% 1:200
    2) 1.5 225% 120.12% 20% 50% 8% +425% 1:191
    3) 1.45 326% 131.65% 30% 75% 17% +450% 1:182
    4) 1.4 457% 144.29% 45% 100% 26% +475% 1:174
    5) 1.4 639% 158.14% 60% 125% 36% +500% 1:167
    6) 1.4 895% 173.32% 75% 150% 47% +525% 1:160
    7) 1.4 1253% 189.96% 95% 175% 59% +550% 1:154
    8) 1.4 1755% 208.20% 115% 200% 71% +575% 1:149
    9) 1.4 2457% 228.18% 135% 225% 85% +600% 1:143
    10) 1.4 3439% 250.09% 160% 250% 100% +625% 1:138

    Almost full clear to me means:

    Keep 3, Keep 2, Fields of Misery, Rakkis, Tower Damned, Tower Cursed, Stonefort, Areat 1, Areat 2, Areat Core, Azmodan.

    Skipped maps: caverns on Fields, Skycrown (I don't like all t he steps), Keep 1. I skip a little bit of the end of the Towers, where there's lots of running, and do the last pack just before Areat 2 by going to A2 wp and going up.

    Sorry, I don't have time to tabulate a total for you.. but ballparkish, 30 minutes. But I chat a lot, so often it takes longer :)
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    Quote from Emberos

    Anyone that has run a spreadsheet on runs over time knows that with current XP/MF bonuses, there is a breaking point where the next highest (and any higher MP level beyond that) is a penalty / less efficient option to choose. If you are OK with that as a mechanic, clearly we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    I have done this (run spreadsheets) and must diagree with you. The difference between MP1 and MP4 on most static maps (like fields of misery) is less than 10 seconds for me -- like 1:38 versus 1:48; and up to MP6, it's another 20 seconds. Frankly, that's less time than I spend IDing stuff and pausing/chatting.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    Quote from overneathe

    Quote from Emberos

    That's current state. That is what is broken. If they scaled the bonuses correctly, when you considered the choice to be more challenged by playing a higher MP level, you wouldn't be thinking to yourself, "yeah that'd be more fun but the price for more fun is LESS reward."
    I don't agree. There will never be an equilibrium in any major gaming community about what is right as a reward and what is not.

    I think bonuses to MF/GF/XP are good incentives and if you have the gear you're only going to do better going MP10. There are very overpowered combinations of gear + right build and when you find both of those and use them together the game difficulty becomes irrelevant below MP5. If you can one shot a skeleton up to MP5 then surely you won't mind 3-shotting it in MP8 while receiving lots of good benefits.

    One-shotting is actually a good point that you bring up. One of the reasons MP0/1 is terrible for either my monk or barb is that one-shotting monsters just messes up resource regeneration too much.

    On MP1, my sweeping wind field will kill most mobs before I actually get a swing at it, and if I'm lucky I get 1 swing. This makes it take FOREVER to fill up Spirit. Ironically, at MP1, I have to use the much weaker 20 second Sweeping Wind ("Master of the Wind", first rune), because I can't generate enough spirit to keep up Cyclone.

    At 2.58-2.63 APS, I like to take 2-3 swings to kill something. It happens very quickly anyhow, and guarantees that after one group of monsters, I have at least enough resource to use a resource spender. Once you hit 2+ APS on fast striking builds (like fot monks, cm/ww wiz) , two hits "feels" like one-shotting, anyhow.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    Quote from Emberos

    #1 Yes people run higher MPs for Wardens and Ubers because for those, it is more time efficient. The reward aligns well with the progression here.

    #2 I don't think anyone is arguing this but, sadly legendaries per kill is a bad metric. Legendaries and XP per hour played -- that is how people measure it and here is where the reward doesn't align with higher MP.

    #3 Yes, depending where your damage is, a higher MP level *may* give you more benefit. However, for everyone right now, there is a breaking point where farming any difficulty higher is a penalty -- you say yours is at MP4 and I'll take your word for it. For me it's between MP2 and MP3. Anything higher is a penalty. I can, you can, many of us *can* farm higher MP levels and be more challenged but the rewards do not encourage us to do so -- in fact they discourage us from doing so.

    Right now, the reward system is built so that unless you can steamroll the content at a given MP level, it is not efficient to run it. If you want challenge, great, but expect to be penalized.

    Also, don't fool yourself, even if/when you do get to 350k dps, you will still be getting penalized because HP pools, XP/MF, DPS, etc. do not align well especially at very high MP levels to reward you for doing so in their current state.

    Actually, MP6 is my sweet spot, not MP4. MP4 is just easier, and if I'm doing 10-20 full act 3 clears a day, my brain turns to mush after a while. Plus, I'm usually watching TV at the same time, and really just have one eye on the game.

    I agree: Legendaries / hour is the most important metric. I can't speak for other people, but for myself, MP6 yields more legendaries per hour than any other MP. I'm going to ballpark it at somewhere around 20 legendaries per 5 full clears (of course, my MF is maxed; I can do this with any of the 3 followers). This weekend, I literally filled two empty pages of stash with mostly-useless legendaries.

    Also, I completely agree that the point at which you can faceroll mobs is the best MP to farm. I'm just saying, as your gear gets better, that will go up. I was amazed at how much faster the game was at 240k dps, compared with 210k dps -- for a monk. Paragon levels also count, as the extra 200 vit and 300 primary stat are pretty great, towards the end.

    I am an optimization player -- I don't seek challenge for the sake of challenge. I want the most stuff in the least time. At my current gearing level, and I've done spreadsheets and used a stopwatch to analyze this, I'm absoltuely certain it's not MP1/2.


    Here is my profile: us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Talys-1767/hero/16576834
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on MP Scaling- Exp Broken
    While there are legitimate points that MP rewards don't scale enough to offset the difficulty, there are some myths I would like to dispel:


    Myth #1 - nobody plays high MP because it's not rewarding enough

    Actually, a lot of peple play high MPs for ring runs. Many people typically farm Act 2 keys at MP7 or MP8, and do the ubers at MP10. Act 3 keys aren't an issue because they appear during xp runs. Because Act 4 is so annoying, and you need the Plans only once, I do the Infernal Machine Plans always at MP10.

    So, there are rewards. They're just not necesarily of the XP/MF variety. But really -- XP comes so fast now...


    Myth #2 - Higher MP doesn't give you more legendaries per kill

    This is totally bunk. First of all, from the technical side -- a randomly item attempts to roll a legendary first; if it fails, it tries for a 6-affix rare, then 5-affix rare, etc. This is all described in the official game guide. Note that the guaranteed rare from an elite/champion/boss kill is an extra drop and cannot be legendary -- it's a guaranteed rare.

    Now, from hard numbers: I'm level 97, and I've done hundreds of A3 solo runs in every MP from 1 to 8. I can tell you without equivocation that the higher your MP, the more legendaries per kill you will get on average. At MP6, which is an "easy" setting for me, I will get at least 30 legendaries a day. I commonly have runs that have 6+ legendaries.

    At MP1, which I can basically just run through, I'll get 1-2 legendaries per act 3 "mostly full clear"; the odd run will yield no legendaries. I can't recall the last MP4+ run that I did (I clear everythng but skycrown, south of bridge wp, and keep1) that didn't yield at least 1 legendary.

    When I do Ubers -- which are MP10 runs that consist of 5 stacks + 3 ubers + A1 keywarden -- one of the four people in our group, sometimes two, will get a legendary.

    Personally, MP4 is probably my favorite, even though MP6 is yields better drops per hour. Why? MP4 is just much less stress, particularly on Reflect + Desecrator/Molten, and especially on mobs that have built-in shielding (like Blood Clan Occultist). I don't really like to kite, and I hate dying and running back.


    Myth #3 - MP1 is still the most efficient even if you have endgame gear

    This is just plain not true. Once you do enough damage AND have enough survivability, the higher MPs are better. It takes me almost exactly the same time to clear any monster power between MP1 and MP4 (I have a monk with 240k unbuffed dps). MP5-MP6 take perhaps 10-20% longer, most of that difference being slightly longer shielding trash mobs and the occasional death.

    Clearly, for me, MP4 is better XP / hr than MP1. However, this was not always the case.

    When we are in group, MP6 goes as fast as 24-35% runspeed allows. Packs that don't shield die as quickly as trash. In a group of 4 with very good gear, MP7 and even MP8 goes really quickly. An MP 10 ring run takes less than 20 minutes (5 packs, 3 ubers 1 warden).

    If your combined effective dps for a group of 4 is around 8 million or more, you will be doing a higher monster level (To check this, solo MP10 Ghom. If you can kill him in 60 seconds, you do a little more than 2 million damage per second).


    I think that the rewards for higher MP could be slightly buffed, but really, it's a good system. Most people feeling that they "have" to run lower MPs for efficiency just don't have the gear to efficiently farm the higher MPs. Remember: gear is NOT just dps. Survivability is very important because dying dramatically slows down run speeds. An "end game geared character" doesn't just have high DPS; it is nearly indestructable, too.

    When my character is where I want it to be -- about 350k unbuffed dps (3 million+ actual dps output), 50k life, 750 resists -- I expect I will be able to run MP7 very quickly, and snooze through MP6.

    I don't think MP8-10 will hit the sweet spot in the efficiency curve, for me. But that's ok, because when I look at diabloprogress and see top-in-the-world characters at 480-500k+ unbuffed dps -- I imagine that in a group of 4 with that type of gear, the last couple of MP's will be pretty darn fast. And there has to be something to strive for, right?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on For Sale: 43 MF - 175 Dex - 66 Vit Helm
    I'll spring for 15m. Talys#1767.
    Posted in: US Servers Trading
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    posted a message on WTS Natalya's Soul (DH Boots) 117 Dex/56 All
    Selling a nicely rolled Natalya's Soul:

    +117 Dex
    +56 Resist all
    +206 Armor
    +12% Move Speed
    Reduceds Damage from melee by 3%

    Starting bids at 30m, buyout at 50m -- Auction closes Tuesday, July 10, 1pm Pacific Time
    Talys #1767 [US Server]

    Posted in: US Servers Trading
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    posted a message on Justice Lantern question
    Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. I ended up buying a very good Justice Lantern: 61 str, 65 vit, and socket (I put in a flawless star ruby for a total strength buff of 111).

    To answer my own question, YES, my survivability has gone up, as compared to a good str vit all LoH ring.

    @ballon - I really only play my barb in parties; the wizards do > 300k damage on crits in a wide AOE, so I don't even try to compete with damage. I only want to grab aggro and nail down mobs, particularly nasty elite packs. We clear pretty much the whole act, and do not skip anything... although yesterday, we hit Rakkis and there were THREE elites all together, that was just not fun!

    @Cygone - In the current game economy, every great item is > 10mil, Every ideal item is > 50 mil.

    For example: you cannot get a 200 str 200 vit 60 resist all chest for less than 20 mil. Up one stat to 300 (for example with sockets) and up the resist close to 80, and you're talking 80 - 100 mil. I don't like it, but that's the reality of the game.

    On the other hand, it's not hard to sell 10 mil a day, based on ~ 5 hours of gameplay. So, I look at it as 1 week = 1 upgrade.. and that's not that terrible.
    Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
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    posted a message on Justice Lantern question
    Quote from khanbg

    If you need more mitigation it is an upgrade.

    I have so-so the same stats and mainly I'm looking to upgrade my dmg so I dropped the JL idea.

    Thanks. From another perspective:

    On the spreadsheet, the effective health drop, as well as drom in resists, is significant. From ONLY a damage mitigation/survivability/tanking perspective, do you think this is a noticable upgrade?

    When I'm in a group, I don't really care about damage, not only because the DH and Wizzie I play with far out-DPS me (60k+ for both), but because I have no effective/cheap spammable/piercing AOEs like nether tentacles and blizzard. In fact, I the sole reason I made a barb was because our group's only tank was a monk, and this was not an optimal balance for late a3/a4.

    I rarely solo -- I find the pace so much slower than my DH, no matter what spec I do, unless I just skip all the trash mobs and kill the bosses :(
    Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
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    posted a message on Justice Lantern question
    I have a reasonably well geared barb: about 55k life, 20k dps, 800+ resist, 38% block, and 1100 Life on Hit. I use SoE.

    I have not bought an upgrade in quite a while (they're not easy to find, at any price), and I have been considering Justice Lantern. I would have to replace a ring that's 70 STR 70 VIT 40 Resist All and 150 Life on Hit.

    I would probably be buying a JL with around 50 STR / 60 VIT and some minor stat (in the 12-16 mil mark), as the ones that are any better are stupdendously exensive. My question is -- do you think this is a good trade-off?

    Alternatively, I could spend the same gold and upgrade my ring to a similar one with higher resist and higher Life on Hit.
    Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
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