So some conclusions I've drawn after many more hours of playing with these builds:
DW is really strong as long as both weapons are high dps so that hota hits hard enough to 1-2 shot elites.
Sunkeeper + EF + SOJ is really strong because the 40% dmg to elites melts them.
Hitting the 2.0 attack speed breakpoint without wotb basically trivializes fury gen and makes sure your tornadoes clean up all stragglers.
Thunderstrike + overpower + charge is the fastest combo. Charge + OP kills many elites on its own, and thunderstrike 1) stops runners by stunning and 2) generates a ton of fury.
If you can't or don't want to by a lifesteal weapon, a little bit of life on kill goes a long way.
I posted in this in the other thread where you posted this video, but I think its more appropriate here:
Is Bash necessary in this build? In the video you're hardly using it, and it doesn't look like it really speeds anything up more than just WWing for another second would. I'm asking because it seems like with both merciless assault and momentum you might be able to generate enough fury to sustain WOTB for long periods of time.
I'm not sure whether the third passive would be better as unforgiving, animosity, or boon of bul-kathos. Also, potentially the templar could be used for the 8% more fury generation, but I'm not sure if that's actually better than the scoundrel's 3% crit.
Part of the appeal of these builds for me is not having to worry about WOTB, but WOTB does have the potential to really speed things up IF you can sustain it on MP0.
Also, the stopwatch program says 83.5 mil/hr, right?
Your stopwatch program in that video shows it as being 83.5 m/hr, which is very consistent with what I'm getting with this set up. I noticed you dropped rend/hota for bash and it didn't slow you down, because you're doing so much damage from WW/tornadoes. I wonder if you could drop bash but keep Merciless Assault, because it generates so much fury, and use merciless assault and momentum to keep a high WOTB uptime. At this point this is diverging a lot from the original point of the thread, but I think its worth trying.
tl;dr basic rules of thumb - pure physical damage weapon (non elemental) with a cold SoJ will have the cold damage effect, elemental weapons will have their elemental effect but the cold damage is still applied (only on the physical part of the weapon damage). Highest elemental damage determines the weapon´s effect.
By the bolded part you mean just the visual effect, right? Or do you mean they aren't slowed by the cold damage? Because my mainhand has holy damage and I see that visual effect a lot, but it also feels like it is still slowing the mobs. I havn't tested this extensively though.
mby u didn't boost ur burst factor high enough to actually oneshot elites with single HotA crit? atk speed makes ur dmg fake, u have gloves and ammy with IAS and no CD so instead of one-shotting you were prolly two-shotting them (it takes more time to twoshot sth with 1.3 APS than oneshot sth with 1.09 APS, while twoshoting sth with 1.6 APS is faster than twoshotting sth with 1.3 APS)
also show me da skorn bro, mby it was not good enough
and I have to say that the results are improved for me over using the Skorn.
numbers my brother, we want numbers
Hope I didn't strike a nerve, just sharing my experiences.
I swapped in IAS gear after I switched to a DW set up in order to hit the 2.0 WW/tornado breakpoint w/o WOTB. I was doing enough damage with my Skorn to one shot elites IF I crit. However, because you aren't always at full fury, critting isn't necessarily guaranteed. Also, packs split up, etc, so you can't always get them all in 1 or even 2 hits. I found with the Skorn's slow attack speed that things like that posed more of a problem, because attacking at 1.17 instead of 2.0 is a really big difference. Things can happen between slow hits, like getting hit by a Golgor's attack that knocks you back, or having the mob pop shielding, or whatever. Here's the Skorn I was using: http://i.imgur.com/FvaUj.jpg
As for numbers, my average with the Skorn was in the 70-73 mil/hr range. With the DW setup, I'm consistently getting in the 80-83 mil/hr range. I've never been able to reproduce Aerialis's 90-100mil xp/hr numbers, but I don't have a leorics and his gear is better than mine.
Here's a video of me doing about 71 mil/hr with the Skorn that I posted on page 3 of this thread:
Here's a video I made last night of me getting a little over 80 mil/hr using my DW setup:
It's not a complete apples to apples comparison, but its the best I can show you and the results have been very consistent for me. Since switching from the Skorn my runs have gone from low 70s to low 80s, or up by about 12.5%. Also, as you can see I am sure, this isn't my best run with the DW set up... I messed around and wasted a ton of time in the keep depths. So this is the low end of my new runs at about 80 mil/hr, and it can be a few of mil/hr higher than that.
I'm posting this with a little embarassment because I've been a big cheerleader for using Skorns and 2 hand builds, but yesterday/today I tried using the exact same build but with two high DPS 1 handers, and I have to say that the results are improved for me over using the Skorn.
As you can see, I'm still using the exact same spec that we're talking about here, and I'm playing it exactly the same way that I was playing it with the Skorn. It's just that on MP0 with good enough DPS you really don't need the Skorn's high base damage to 1 shot the trash, and the DW setup makes elites faster because there is less delay. It also generates more rage because of the higher tick rate on WW and the tornadoes.
Anyways, I still think this is the best build for farming XP/items on MP0, but as much as I like Skorn I'm not sure that's better for this build than using a DW setup unless you are on a budget.
Have you guys settled on a spec? For now I think I like Merciless Assault + Overpower the best, leaving out Leap, and using Thunderstrike over Rend. But Aerialus it looks like your profile is back to rend?
Also, where do you guys go after Tower of the Damned 1 in your Alkaizer route? The standard route is Crater 2, but I hate going there with less than 5 stacks.
Even ww spec, tbh, if you kill stuff with first crit, I'm not quite sure if ias skorn and overall ias gear is mandatory for this. Trash dies to first tornado crits anyways, if they crit for over 100k at mp0. So you get no benifit of it ticking faster, in terms of fury generation. There is also passive fury generation that is big part of this build.
I feel like with seriously overgearing content, no wotb build ias might not be that important, even for ww/tornado build.
I don't think IAS matters for this build at all either. I also want to suggest again that you guys give Merciless Assault another shot. It doesn't gain speed, because of the animation stall at the end, but I don't think it loses it either... I think the increased speed from the charge itself cancels out with the stall and its the same as if you had just run that distance. But what it does do is #1 increase your fury generation significantly, meaning you can drop animosity and run both ruthless and weapon master, and #2 do near instant 195% weapon damage to an entire elite pack. Instead of overpower, my combo is to leap > rend > charge, making sure sprint is active. if you point it the right direction this will kill all but the highest HP elite packs without losing any time. I think being able to run both DPS passives along with the extra 30% weapon dmg on charge vs overpower more than makes up for any DPS loss from the killing spree bonus.
Btw as for skorn builds.
Pretty much all high end top heroscore guys use dual wield setups with EF.
I wonder if it is possible to come close to this with just very good skorn. Also what skorn would be better, ias one or life steal.
1 decent mighty weapon is still less than 10m gold and for 40 mill, you can get a decent fury. There you got it. A better weapon setup than any skorn. You dont need 2x 1b one handers for DW to work. It can be done with less than 50m. And with 50m worth of one handers you can reach an xp per hour no skorn ww'er can compete with.
Also here is a video from one of the top geared barbs in the game explaining the efficiency of using a 2 hander rend build for farming: http://www.twitch.tv/cdxliv/c/1747935
it is much harder to sustain wotb with 2h, against single target.
Yes, superstition is a big part of it. I completely disagree about not keeping it up vs. ZK/siege though, I have no trouble keeping 100% WOTB uptime in that fight. There are his fireballs as well as his tornadoes. The other thing is, the spec I linked and used is hybrid so if you get low on fury another option is to just sprint/WW for a couple of seconds to drop a bunch of tornadoes on the boss which will fill up your fury as you go back to spamming HotA. In the ZK/Siege fight this is particularly easy because Siegebreaker is huge and spends a lot of time standing still in your tornadoes.
Against actual packs when you are getting your stacks its never a problem either, because they will either have molten or arcane or whatever or since there are multiples and probably trash around you can just drop a couple of tornadoes.
So I understand that in pure theory this its difficult to keep HotA up, but in reality its quite easy.
Honestly, I think Skorn is superior to 1 handers for high MP uber/key farming as well, simply because the most efficient way to do that at this point is just to spam HotA. For ubers now I literally just hold down left click for HotA - Smash and with only 1.45 attack speed including WOTB I am able to keep permanent WOTB uptime doing nothing else and output 1.3mil dps.
The only skills you actually need there are HotA, Battle Rage and Thrive on Chaos. I only keep the sprint/WW combo in order to farm the 5 NV stacks faster, but if you have somebody else finding the elites for you or something you could drop them both for Rend/Overpower and increase your DPS.
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Sure, but its better for max item farming.
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DW is really strong as long as both weapons are high dps so that hota hits hard enough to 1-2 shot elites.
Sunkeeper + EF + SOJ is really strong because the 40% dmg to elites melts them.
Hitting the 2.0 attack speed breakpoint without wotb basically trivializes fury gen and makes sure your tornadoes clean up all stragglers.
Thunderstrike + overpower + charge is the fastest combo. Charge + OP kills many elites on its own, and thunderstrike 1) stops runners by stunning and 2) generates a ton of fury.
If you can't or don't want to by a lifesteal weapon, a little bit of life on kill goes a long way.
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Is Bash necessary in this build? In the video you're hardly using it, and it doesn't look like it really speeds anything up more than just WWing for another second would. I'm asking because it seems like with both merciless assault and momentum you might be able to generate enough fury to sustain WOTB for long periods of time.
I'm thinking this: http://us.battle.net...QURP!ZYh!ZZYZYc
I'm not sure whether the third passive would be better as unforgiving, animosity, or boon of bul-kathos. Also, potentially the templar could be used for the 8% more fury generation, but I'm not sure if that's actually better than the scoundrel's 3% crit.
Part of the appeal of these builds for me is not having to worry about WOTB, but WOTB does have the potential to really speed things up IF you can sustain it on MP0.
Also, the stopwatch program says 83.5 mil/hr, right?
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Your stopwatch program in that video shows it as being 83.5 m/hr, which is very consistent with what I'm getting with this set up. I noticed you dropped rend/hota for bash and it didn't slow you down, because you're doing so much damage from WW/tornadoes. I wonder if you could drop bash but keep Merciless Assault, because it generates so much fury, and use merciless assault and momentum to keep a high WOTB uptime. At this point this is diverging a lot from the original point of the thread, but I think its worth trying.
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By the bolded part you mean just the visual effect, right? Or do you mean they aren't slowed by the cold damage? Because my mainhand has holy damage and I see that visual effect a lot, but it also feels like it is still slowing the mobs. I havn't tested this extensively though.
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Hope I didn't strike a nerve, just sharing my experiences.
I swapped in IAS gear after I switched to a DW set up in order to hit the 2.0 WW/tornado breakpoint w/o WOTB. I was doing enough damage with my Skorn to one shot elites IF I crit. However, because you aren't always at full fury, critting isn't necessarily guaranteed. Also, packs split up, etc, so you can't always get them all in 1 or even 2 hits. I found with the Skorn's slow attack speed that things like that posed more of a problem, because attacking at 1.17 instead of 2.0 is a really big difference. Things can happen between slow hits, like getting hit by a Golgor's attack that knocks you back, or having the mob pop shielding, or whatever. Here's the Skorn I was using: http://i.imgur.com/FvaUj.jpg
As for numbers, my average with the Skorn was in the 70-73 mil/hr range. With the DW setup, I'm consistently getting in the 80-83 mil/hr range. I've never been able to reproduce Aerialis's 90-100mil xp/hr numbers, but I don't have a leorics and his gear is better than mine.
Here's a video of me doing about 71 mil/hr with the Skorn that I posted on page 3 of this thread:
Here's a video I made last night of me getting a little over 80 mil/hr using my DW setup:
It's not a complete apples to apples comparison, but its the best I can show you and the results have been very consistent for me. Since switching from the Skorn my runs have gone from low 70s to low 80s, or up by about 12.5%. Also, as you can see I am sure, this isn't my best run with the DW set up... I messed around and wasted a ton of time in the keep depths. So this is the low end of my new runs at about 80 mil/hr, and it can be a few of mil/hr higher than that.
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Here's my current profile: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Morphos-1475/hero/19237630
As you can see, I'm still using the exact same spec that we're talking about here, and I'm playing it exactly the same way that I was playing it with the Skorn. It's just that on MP0 with good enough DPS you really don't need the Skorn's high base damage to 1 shot the trash, and the DW setup makes elites faster because there is less delay. It also generates more rage because of the higher tick rate on WW and the tornadoes.
Anyways, I still think this is the best build for farming XP/items on MP0, but as much as I like Skorn I'm not sure that's better for this build than using a DW setup unless you are on a budget.
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Have you guys settled on a spec? For now I think I like Merciless Assault + Overpower the best, leaving out Leap, and using Thunderstrike over Rend. But Aerialus it looks like your profile is back to rend?
Also, where do you guys go after Tower of the Damned 1 in your Alkaizer route? The standard route is Crater 2, but I hate going there with less than 5 stacks.
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I don't think IAS matters for this build at all either. I also want to suggest again that you guys give Merciless Assault another shot. It doesn't gain speed, because of the animation stall at the end, but I don't think it loses it either... I think the increased speed from the charge itself cancels out with the stall and its the same as if you had just run that distance. But what it does do is #1 increase your fury generation significantly, meaning you can drop animosity and run both ruthless and weapon master, and #2 do near instant 195% weapon damage to an entire elite pack. Instead of overpower, my combo is to leap > rend > charge, making sure sprint is active. if you point it the right direction this will kill all but the highest HP elite packs without losing any time. I think being able to run both DPS passives along with the extra 30% weapon dmg on charge vs overpower more than makes up for any DPS loss from the killing spree bonus.
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The top heroscore barb in the world (and 4th DPS) uses a Skorn: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/zebq-2452/Zebq/317096
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This is pure BS.
Here is a video of me pulling 71mil XP/hour with a Skorn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXPHVIorv4g&feature=plcp My gear is nowhere near optimal and this run could easily exceed 80mil/hour if it was.
Also here is a video from one of the top geared barbs in the game explaining the efficiency of using a 2 hander rend build for farming: http://www.twitch.tv/cdxliv/c/1747935
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Yes, superstition is a big part of it. I completely disagree about not keeping it up vs. ZK/siege though, I have no trouble keeping 100% WOTB uptime in that fight. There are his fireballs as well as his tornadoes. The other thing is, the spec I linked and used is hybrid so if you get low on fury another option is to just sprint/WW for a couple of seconds to drop a bunch of tornadoes on the boss which will fill up your fury as you go back to spamming HotA. In the ZK/Siege fight this is particularly easy because Siegebreaker is huge and spends a lot of time standing still in your tornadoes.
Against actual packs when you are getting your stacks its never a problem either, because they will either have molten or arcane or whatever or since there are multiples and probably trash around you can just drop a couple of tornadoes.
So I understand that in pure theory this its difficult to keep HotA up, but in reality its quite easy.
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This is the spec I use now for high MP key/uber farming: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#ZhkURP!ZYe!ZZcZYc
The only skills you actually need there are HotA, Battle Rage and Thrive on Chaos. I only keep the sprint/WW combo in order to farm the 5 NV stacks faster, but if you have somebody else finding the elites for you or something you could drop them both for Rend/Overpower and increase your DPS.