Thanks for your responses everyone, they've been really interesting to read.
I have to say I haven't given up on the game, hopefully nothing I wrote came off too disheartened. I'm enjoying the gameplay despite my reservations and I think that one thing that was particularly well done was class definition. Every class has a very different but focused feel to it and I'm getting a lot of enjoyment from leveling alts.
The only thing I worry I about is the longevity of my enjoyment. Hopefully the introduction of PvP will provide a stimulus to continue progressing.
I'm pleased that this discussion has progressed well and it's very interesting to see some other points of view. Obviously developing a game like this has to cater to a wide audience and different people enjoy different things.
The one thing that I'll mention again is that I believe the "just don't use the AH" argument falls a bit flat.
EDIT: @Telsak (post under this one): what Bashiok said is that item drops aren't linked to what items are currently for sale at the AH. But he confirmed that global item drops were 'nerfed' due to the mere existence of the AH
Unfortunately personal farming has taken a direct hit because of the existence of the AH. Without the AH inflating the number of items, drop rates would be higher and easier to farm individually. For better or worse everyone in D3 is intrinsically linked to the AH.
Fun and excitement are subjective. I find it more fun to be able to use items that drop for me, rather then play the AH. Everyone has different opinions though, the one above is just mine.
You make some good points. I would say the main difference between the AH and the D2 trading system is the use of gold or RM as currency for items. While D2 used runes and SOJs as currency for awhile, they behaved differently then gold. Because they were drops (or admittedly dupes) there was still more cause for personal farming. Currently because gold is used as currency there is a greater tie between farming for items and then either vendoring them or putting them on the AH for gold. Gold becomes too difficult to balance. To take from fr0st's post:
When you limit the amount of currency in the economy, trading becomes much more prevalent. Trading an item for an item was actually something that happened in diablo 2 for a time. It was fun. You can not limit the amount of gold that drops. It will continue to inflate indefinitely over the course of the games life. Two things; Yes you would need sinks for an item-currency, and yes there would be hoarders. But the rate of inflation again could be more easily controlled, and hoarders would do little to affect the overall economy.
Because not everyone is finding SOJS(item-dropped currency), it won't create my most feared effect. Gold will create a hoarding mentality. If there is a specific price for the BEST FARMING ITEM IN THE GAME, and it sits at 100,000 gold, and you have 80,000 gold....why would you stop farming? You have farmed 80k already, at a rate of ~5k per hour. So you know almost to a T that you will have another 20k in 4 more hours of farming. Psychologically, this makes the player not care about any other item in the game but the best ones. With an SOJ/item based currency, you never know when you might find your next piece of currency. This in turn makes you scrounge and trade whatever you do find, putting more items into the mix of the economy.
Using something besides gold as currency created a very difference environment in D2 and allowed for more bartering. Trading items for items, or a dropped currency item (SoJ) for an item is more engaging then simply transactions on the AH.
The other point I would make is that while it's easy to say "if you don't like the AH, don't use it", it's a bit more complicated. Because drop rates for excellent items have to be tuned because of the existence of the AH (ie better items drop less because they're readily available on the AH), everyone becomes affected. Even if I decide to not use the AH, my drop rates and progression are penalized because of the existence of the AH.
So I posted this on the official forums but thought it might also help generate some discussion here. Enjoy.
Let me preface this by saying that there are many aspects of D3 that I really enjoy (animations, art design, class abilities) but I find myself having less fun and enjoying my experience far less then I hoped for at launch.
I'm going to outline some of the specific features which I have issue with and try to explain why I believe they negatively impact my experience. I'll also try to provide some alternatives or possible solutions to these issues. I should also make clear that many of the points I discuss have already been raised by others.
I don't necessary agree with every issue in these posts but all provide thorough, thoughtful feedback on current game issues. I highly encourage everyone to explore these posts when they have time.
With that... let's begin.
The three issues I'm going to discuss here are as follows:
Methods of player reward - the primacy of the Auction House over the possible benefits of item drops
Lack of exploration - Reliance on the quest system after the completion of an act
Lack of community
Methods of Player Reward
Perhaps my largest grievance with the current state of D3 is how dominate and necessary the use of the Auction House is. As a disclaimer, I use the auction house and have no issue with those who also use it (you'd be crazy not to in the games current state) but I do believe that the system is poorly designed.
The current method of thought is that as you progress through Inferno you farm previous areas for upgrades before continuing on. I completely agree with the thought but it doesn't play out this way. Instead of farming Act 1 for upgrades before proceeding to Act 2, you currently farm Act 1 for items to sell on the AH in order to build up enough capital to buy your own character upgrades so you can progress. Some in the community may not hold issue with this process but I certainly do. For myself, the greatest enjoyment of the game is slaying monsters and hoping for drops, not searching the thousands of posted items for a deal and juggling my own sales. Unfortunately the AH, designed as a peripheral support system, has taken precedence over actually playing through the game. Now I admit that statement has elements of exaggeration but I do believe that currently the AH provides the best, most efficient means of improving your character and progressing through the game. When the micromanagement of this economic system supplants actually playing the game as the most beneficial means of progression, something is wrong.
Unfortunately drop rates for items are inherently bound of the existence of the AH. Particularly good items must drop at a lower rate because they will available for purchase for gold. Without lowering the rates, the inflation in number of legendary/set items will remove the scarcity which makes them so valuable. Which circles right back into the AH as the best method for obtaining items. The chances of obtaining the item you want/need is so low that you're better off playing the AH where you can buy that item.
To use an anecdotal example: I've been farming Act 1 (Inferno) on my barb for awhile now so I can gear up for Act 2. Unfortunately, despite all of my Jailer/Butcher runs, I've only managed to find one minor upgrade for myself. Which isn't to say I haven't upgraded. On the contrary, I have to sell items I find on the AH in order to purchase upgrades for my barb. While this works (to a degree) I shouldn't have to rely on the AH to provide upgrades.
Changes need to be implemented to increase the viability of farming you own upgrades while decreasing the incentive to use the AH. (I'll discuss possible changes later)
Lack of exploration
Compared to the last topic, this issue is rather straight forward. I fail to see why it is necessary to cling to the quest system even after an Act is finished. In Diablo 2, you could create a game and openly explore any completed Act. Using waypoints, it was easy to navigate between acts and between areas, allowing players to find and kill bosses in whichever order they chose. Now, if I want to kill the Jailer and Butcher, I have to create a game in which those quests have yet to be competed and replay the the quests every time. Not only does it get annoying to endless scroll through quest dialogue but it also completely destroys the role of waypoints. Currently waypoints only work retroactively, by which I mean you only use them if you happen to be backtracking. If I create a game to kill the Butcher, I can't use the waypoint closest to him, I have to use the waypoint tied to the current quest that I have to complete and eventually rediscover that last waypoint. What purpose then does that last waypoint ever fulfill? When matched with the unlimited town portal ability, when, if ever, do waypoints get used?
I'll jump ahead of myself and attempt to propose a solution. There needs to be an exploration game mode, some option that lets you revisit an act you've already completed. All monsters and bosses will be spawned and all way points unlocked, allowing you the freedom to move around the act in any fashion you choose. The fear of fast, endless boss runs is unnecessary considering the introduction of neph. valor stacks. The open mode would simply give players more freedom to play without being hampered by quests which they've already completed hundreds of times.
Lack of community
My last point is short and sweet. There needs to be a lobby or an alternative method of interacting with the community in-game. The introduction of the General chat was a step in the right direction, but (as anyone who's ever played WoW knows) a single chat channel for all communication including social, trade, LFG becomes a tangled mess. The Diablo 2 community worked because it was easy to jump in and out of specific channels in order to satisfy particular needs. If you want to trade go here, if you want to find a group for Diablo go here. It's a simple enough thing but makes a huge difference in not only improving people's experiences but also developing a thriving community.
Possible solutions
I realize I've already presented some alternatives for the lack of exploratory freedom and the lack of community but let me revisit the AH.
I stated earlier that my main contention with the AH is that it has supplanted personal farming as the best means of gearing and progression. This can be countered with two general strategies:
Improve the likelihood and quality of drops
Decrease the incentive to use the AH as a primary means of obtaining gear
To the first point, Blizzard has taken a step in the right direction in promising to improve the quality of legendary items. However, if the second step is taken, the drop rates for these items must also be increased to make up the decrease in availability on the AH.
In terms of decreasing the incentive for people to use the AH, I'll refer to Yamahoko's original proposal.
5 - change) Huge surcharge on the gold AH. Like 50%. Add a cost to list an item equal to the vendor price of the item.
5 - expected change) This will cause prices to rise (because profits will be cut in half) and reduce the effectiveness of the AH from being the single best place to acquire loot upgrades. It is still a place to go, but since it becomes less effective as a place to sell - the prices go up, and the quantity of items goes down. This also creates a nice gold sink, and actively sends players to the more fun parts of the game to experience content. This would effectively double all reasonable pricing on the AH. As because there is a cost to list, the amount of redundant gear and content irrelevant gear will be reduced. It will also cause more salvaging (due to a lack of return on AH sales for subpar gear), which will indirectly make the blacksmith a more attractive option for gear upgrades.
While this may seem extreme to some, the increase in an AH surcharge provides an excellent solution. It pushes people to return to farming as a means to gear their characters while retaining the AH as an option (be it a less appealing one) to acquire a specific piece of gear. When matched with an increase in the drop rate and quality of rare and legendary items, it would help return gameplay to the forefront of modes for progression.
I've presented a lot here, and I completely expect a lot of people to disagree with my views. However, I encourage everyone to be constructive in their responses. There are enough trolls and complaints on the forums to keep Blizzard busy. If we keep this thread constructive, it'll have a better chance of being taken seriously.
- Eisen
Also, please read the links provided at the top. Yamahoko provides perhaps the best insight to current game issues I've read on the forums so far.
I'm not sure what to do atm, feels like the game is frozen. Got an error that my character couldnt be created because of the party configuration and now everything is grayed out. Going on 10 mins now.
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Starting Bid: 1mil
Buy it now: 2.5mil
Contact here or ingame at Eisen#1963
Thanks, and happy bidding!
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250k starting bid
500k c/o
Please contact me here or ingame at Eisen#1963
Thanks!
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950k starting bid
2mil c\o
please contact here or ingame at Eisen#1963
Thanks!
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I have to say I haven't given up on the game, hopefully nothing I wrote came off too disheartened. I'm enjoying the gameplay despite my reservations and I think that one thing that was particularly well done was class definition. Every class has a very different but focused feel to it and I'm getting a lot of enjoyment from leveling alts.
The only thing I worry I about is the longevity of my enjoyment. Hopefully the introduction of PvP will provide a stimulus to continue progressing.
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The one thing that I'll mention again is that I believe the "just don't use the AH" argument falls a bit flat.
Unfortunately personal farming has taken a direct hit because of the existence of the AH. Without the AH inflating the number of items, drop rates would be higher and easier to farm individually. For better or worse everyone in D3 is intrinsically linked to the AH.
Keep the thoughts coming.
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Using something besides gold as currency created a very difference environment in D2 and allowed for more bartering. Trading items for items, or a dropped currency item (SoJ) for an item is more engaging then simply transactions on the AH.
The other point I would make is that while it's easy to say "if you don't like the AH, don't use it", it's a bit more complicated. Because drop rates for excellent items have to be tuned because of the existence of the AH (ie better items drop less because they're readily available on the AH), everyone becomes affected. Even if I decide to not use the AH, my drop rates and progression are penalized because of the existence of the AH.
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Let me preface this by saying that there are many aspects of D3 that I really enjoy (animations, art design, class abilities) but I find myself having less fun and enjoying my experience far less then I hoped for at launch.
I'm going to outline some of the specific features which I have issue with and try to explain why I believe they negatively impact my experience. I'll also try to provide some alternatives or possible solutions to these issues. I should also make clear that many of the points I discuss have already been raised by others.
Game Designer's Take Diablo 3's loot system - Yamahako
http://us.battle.net...70834615?page=1
Discussion of currency in D3 - fr0st
http://us.battle.net...34615?page=2#23
Issues with G-AH - Jayos
http://us.battle.net...4615?page=6#119
I don't necessary agree with every issue in these posts but all provide thorough, thoughtful feedback on current game issues. I highly encourage everyone to explore these posts when they have time.
With that... let's begin.
The three issues I'm going to discuss here are as follows:
Methods of player reward - the primacy of the Auction House over the possible benefits of item drops
Lack of exploration - Reliance on the quest system after the completion of an act
Lack of community
Methods of Player Reward
Perhaps my largest grievance with the current state of D3 is how dominate and necessary the use of the Auction House is. As a disclaimer, I use the auction house and have no issue with those who also use it (you'd be crazy not to in the games current state) but I do believe that the system is poorly designed.
The current method of thought is that as you progress through Inferno you farm previous areas for upgrades before continuing on. I completely agree with the thought but it doesn't play out this way. Instead of farming Act 1 for upgrades before proceeding to Act 2, you currently farm Act 1 for items to sell on the AH in order to build up enough capital to buy your own character upgrades so you can progress. Some in the community may not hold issue with this process but I certainly do. For myself, the greatest enjoyment of the game is slaying monsters and hoping for drops, not searching the thousands of posted items for a deal and juggling my own sales. Unfortunately the AH, designed as a peripheral support system, has taken precedence over actually playing through the game. Now I admit that statement has elements of exaggeration but I do believe that currently the AH provides the best, most efficient means of improving your character and progressing through the game. When the micromanagement of this economic system supplants actually playing the game as the most beneficial means of progression, something is wrong.
To use Jayos' explanation:
Unfortunately drop rates for items are inherently bound of the existence of the AH. Particularly good items must drop at a lower rate because they will available for purchase for gold. Without lowering the rates, the inflation in number of legendary/set items will remove the scarcity which makes them so valuable. Which circles right back into the AH as the best method for obtaining items. The chances of obtaining the item you want/need is so low that you're better off playing the AH where you can buy that item.
To use an anecdotal example: I've been farming Act 1 (Inferno) on my barb for awhile now so I can gear up for Act 2. Unfortunately, despite all of my Jailer/Butcher runs, I've only managed to find one minor upgrade for myself. Which isn't to say I haven't upgraded. On the contrary, I have to sell items I find on the AH in order to purchase upgrades for my barb. While this works (to a degree) I shouldn't have to rely on the AH to provide upgrades.
Changes need to be implemented to increase the viability of farming you own upgrades while decreasing the incentive to use the AH. (I'll discuss possible changes later)
Lack of exploration
Compared to the last topic, this issue is rather straight forward. I fail to see why it is necessary to cling to the quest system even after an Act is finished. In Diablo 2, you could create a game and openly explore any completed Act. Using waypoints, it was easy to navigate between acts and between areas, allowing players to find and kill bosses in whichever order they chose. Now, if I want to kill the Jailer and Butcher, I have to create a game in which those quests have yet to be competed and replay the the quests every time. Not only does it get annoying to endless scroll through quest dialogue but it also completely destroys the role of waypoints. Currently waypoints only work retroactively, by which I mean you only use them if you happen to be backtracking. If I create a game to kill the Butcher, I can't use the waypoint closest to him, I have to use the waypoint tied to the current quest that I have to complete and eventually rediscover that last waypoint. What purpose then does that last waypoint ever fulfill? When matched with the unlimited town portal ability, when, if ever, do waypoints get used?
I'll jump ahead of myself and attempt to propose a solution. There needs to be an exploration game mode, some option that lets you revisit an act you've already completed. All monsters and bosses will be spawned and all way points unlocked, allowing you the freedom to move around the act in any fashion you choose. The fear of fast, endless boss runs is unnecessary considering the introduction of neph. valor stacks. The open mode would simply give players more freedom to play without being hampered by quests which they've already completed hundreds of times.
Lack of community
My last point is short and sweet. There needs to be a lobby or an alternative method of interacting with the community in-game. The introduction of the General chat was a step in the right direction, but (as anyone who's ever played WoW knows) a single chat channel for all communication including social, trade, LFG becomes a tangled mess. The Diablo 2 community worked because it was easy to jump in and out of specific channels in order to satisfy particular needs. If you want to trade go here, if you want to find a group for Diablo go here. It's a simple enough thing but makes a huge difference in not only improving people's experiences but also developing a thriving community.
Possible solutions
I realize I've already presented some alternatives for the lack of exploratory freedom and the lack of community but let me revisit the AH.
I stated earlier that my main contention with the AH is that it has supplanted personal farming as the best means of gearing and progression. This can be countered with two general strategies:
Improve the likelihood and quality of drops Decrease the incentive to use the AH as a primary means of obtaining gear
To the first point, Blizzard has taken a step in the right direction in promising to improve the quality of legendary items. However, if the second step is taken, the drop rates for these items must also be increased to make up the decrease in availability on the AH.
In terms of decreasing the incentive for people to use the AH, I'll refer to Yamahoko's original proposal.
While this may seem extreme to some, the increase in an AH surcharge provides an excellent solution. It pushes people to return to farming as a means to gear their characters while retaining the AH as an option (be it a less appealing one) to acquire a specific piece of gear. When matched with an increase in the drop rate and quality of rare and legendary items, it would help return gameplay to the forefront of modes for progression.
I've presented a lot here, and I completely expect a lot of people to disagree with my views. However, I encourage everyone to be constructive in their responses. There are enough trolls and complaints on the forums to keep Blizzard busy. If we keep this thread constructive, it'll have a better chance of being taken seriously.
- Eisen
Also, please read the links provided at the top. Yamahoko provides perhaps the best insight to current game issues I've read on the forums so far.
And no, I'm not including a TL;DR.
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sigh
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5051765617
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