Sorry, but this is all kinds of wrong. Gold league players are incredibly bad.
Of course this is the standard games are held to. A game must be easy to play and hard to master. Its a known psychological faq that you can't flow with a experience if you dont have a degree of competence in it.
A degree of competence is not the same as being good. A game being easy to play but hard to master does not equal a game where everyone is at least good. You'll have to make up your mind, because you're saying three different things here.
i hope you can answer one last extrapolating question about a player's ability, do you thing a minor league baseball player is a bad player?
almost everybody should be good at it and some people should excel. Even at university, if most the group fails an item in a test, the item is removed from the test.
If this is the standard we hold games to, then nearly every game that's not released by Popcap is a failure. Certainly every other blizzard game is a massive failure if judged by that standard. Shouldn't we rather be looking at whether or not most people are having fun with the game? Being good at a game is not a necessary part of having fun with it (look at magicka for instance). I'm sure people in bronze league still have fun with sc2, even though they're absolutely terrible. The same can be said for most people playing WoW.
I can see that. I think a good game is pretty fun for ~95% of its players, and hard to master for ~90% of them. I think some of the predictions on these forums that only 1% of people will make it through inferno is a serious miscalculation. If that were even close to true I'd say the game was too hard. But on the other hand, if 100% of everyone who plays it is a master at it it's obviously balanced too far in the other direction.
I think our best conclusion at this point is to take Blizzard at their word:
Everyone, even new-to-RPGers will find Normal only moderately challenging. The real challenge starts at nightmare, where it gets ramped up considerably. Hell will then be yet another new horizon of hardness, and Inferno will challenge even the best. Obviously people who put a lot of time into video games and/or have considerable experience with this genre in particular or are part of a good group will probably have less trouble than those who aren't and don't. If all of that happens, then I'll say it's a pretty well made and balanced game as far as difficulty and learning curve.
Of course this is the standard games are held to. A game must be easy to play and hard to master. Its a known psychological faq that you can't flow with a experience if you dont have a degree of competence in it.
Besides you argument about sc2 leagues is exactly what i mean. Bronze League players are good at the game (even if they suck by gold league standards); they have a basic understanding of the game and can play it competitively at some level. Gold league SC2 players excel at the game.
In D2 the moment most people hit nightmare and hell you suck if you did something wrong. You suddenly realize you are not pay the game right and you don't know how to do it. you need to go learn how to play it, check tables and spreadsheets, follow a class guide to reach a good build and have a chance to play at higher dificulties.
Why do people want stats? Most went to vitality anyway, some into dex, enough for gear in strength and none at all in energy. That was how 99% of stats in builds were distributed. I fail to see the customization in that. Maybe because D2 never had any at all, however people are fooled to believe that there was. I guess people like clicking those 5 times each level (+1 for skill points).
EDIT: stat points in D2 were so boring anyway, almost nothing happened when you distributed them.
Oh how I love posts like yours.
Ok where do I start? First off you are severely wrong about D2 stats and builds. "Most" people did that build because they sucked to bad at the game to make their own and they just pose others.
Secondly, that build you stated is not required nor is it the only solution. You can easily play the game and have fun with 10+ skills and have like 160 str and 150 dex and rest in vita or energy with any class.
You fail to see the customization in that because you obviously were a poser and couldn't handle the game on your own. I know it is harsh, but that is the truth.
Now your argument that D2 stats didn't do much, I kinda agree with you to an extent. So instead of correcting that and making them useful why not just throw em all out because that is easier right?
Just because something didn't work in D2 doesn't mean it couldn't work in D3.
IMVHO, if it's broken then fix it, don't just throw it away
now where di you guys come up with the idea that Stats are thrown away? they are just pre allocated your just mad you can't put all your stats in Energy! lol
Imho and in most game developers opinion, a game where most people suck and some where good at its a poorly designed game.
almost everybody should be good at it and some people should excel. Even at university, if most the group fails an item in a test, the item is removed from the test.
You know lots of people, including famous and well respected scientists, profesionals and academicians in theor respectful fields said at one point or another that the airplane, radio, telephone, automobile and electric lighting would not have any practical uses and would not be succesful.
it happens all the time. People are afraid of change, people like things to stay the same. But thing always change and many times for the best.
People who want to keep some or all the mechanics of d2 are just like the conservative individuals that though this new inventions wouldn't work. All of this inventions and the systems of d3 have gone throu lot sof though and are what have been found to be most optimal backed by empirical evidence. They run models of this systems. They hire ecnomists to tell them how to mantain the ecnomy of te game and the way people make choices. They hire matemathians and game theorist to develop content and balance the game. THey hire psychologist to inform them that the average individual doesn't like permanent choices, even if they say they do.
It'll be ok. the game will be great, we will enjoy it. relax, Allow yourself to enjoy the game, as in the end,it'll be your preconceptions and prejudices will be what wont allow you to enjoy it, not the systems and changes from D2.
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct? And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited. Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
In my view, the people bitching about Diablo 2 stat and skill points being removed are to be ignored. Most games have gone this route actually and until some renesaince in gaming "hardcorism" returns, this is what to expect.
Good riddance.
Dude relax and read the whole thread before flaming like that, the OP said at least twice in the thread the he understands the system now. He also said from the beginning that he doesn't know about it and really wanted to know.
D2 :
-Linear talent tree, you end up with 2 - 3 skills.
-Characteristics kind of useless, it's only used to gain more mana, health and be able to wear the best stuff.
If you want to get your point across, don't exaggerate the other side please.
in D2 the amount of skills varied between what class and build you used(However it was usually more than 2-3), in D3, the amount of skills will always remain at 6 at any one time.
Statistics were definitly NOT useless, you had to plan your character if you played hardcore.
Infact the only stat you didn't want on hardcore was Energy.
Thats good because is the only stat you won't get in D3 :D.
On a more serious note, as they corrected me earlier stats are still there, you want more dexterity, gear it up!
Besides that, now you have your primary atribute, which you're always want to max, and the secondary or derived stats (dodge, armor , resistance and life) which should be you focus.
You want more dodge, look for dodge and dex in your items. If its resistances you need, go find more res and int gear.
And its true with atribute points as rewards for leveling, you could boost those stats to further differientiate your character. but given the current system the most logical route would be to dump everything in your main stat, which will give you damage and some sort of defense.
Furthermore we need to realize (or realise) that one of the reasons stat points per level were removed from the game is because a a level 60 barbarian with 200 points of strenght will play in exactly the same way than a level 60 barbarian with 300 points of strenght.
So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Supposedly they are useful for characters now. Each character can increase damage significantly (1% per point dealing with point values ine the 200 range on individual items), vitality significantly at 10 HP per point, etc., etc. Now one thing I am concerned about is that each stat also adds to a type of defense (str=Armor; dex=Dodge; int=resistance; vit=Health Pool) so I don't know how that will work out in terms of choice viability. Will a character be more of a glass cannon if they focus on their primary stat and more of a tank if they spread points out evenly? or will the choice be Primary stat or Vitality and the other 2 don't matter? or some other outcome that I haven't come up wit yet? Lets hope that its not the second one at least...
In short they do matter, but how much each one matters for each class is up for debate.
So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Stats themselves aren't useless, the way they were handled in D2 made them so
In D3 all stat points have some use to all characters, be it Str on a Wiz increasing armour or Int on a Barb increasing resistances. As is, if I want to create a 'tank' barb I have to rely on items to do so. Why can I not create the character I want with stat point distribution and then 'round off the edges' with items? If I choose to make a Vit heavy build on my character I can then compensate if I feel the need, with items that do more damage or have Str on. If I choose to make a Str heavy Barb with limited points in Int for res, Dex for dodge and Vit for health pool and make more of a 'reckless beserker' approach, then why can't I?
Say I choose to make a shield block Barb and decide I don't care for dodge chances, then why would I ever want a point in Dex?
You guys are right and thats what i meant, i must have lost my train of thought somewhere, coupled with the fact that english is not my native tongue i ended up saying something completely different that what i meant.
So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Although i do feel like more variety in the items would be nice, the way they are build right now just make sense, afeter all they are all wearing a balor armor.
Otherwise would be like complaining in real life because all chain mail armor looks alike.
As you go up in levels you'll get multiple stats per item. So yes, you'll want to stack you primary stat as high as posible, but your secondary atributes you pick to raise should would vary.
A barb with revenge could avoid getting dex to get hit more often, but would instead raise int to get more resistances.
EDIT: here you can see some high level gear from the barbarian preview.
To the troll with the wall of text: I live in ecuador, south america. Even wih our crappy ISPs i have internet connection 24/7 and play without lag.
So if i can play D3 almost everybody can.
To the OP as 4 player per game is to low is you argument, yours is the burden of proof. You didn't do that in your original post, thats why this can be considered trolling. (and the reasns you subsequentally gave us were just opinions, which are not a good argument against blizzard's four player cap arguments.
Speculation is not pointless, its fun for some people!
and i doubt its lillith, i really doudt the d3 logo includes lillith's head. Its diablo, it has never been a man or a woman, justa a demon and in this game it (not she) will look more femenine, probably because it has a female host (leah or adria).
I cant understand why woud someone care if diablo is female. Its a demon, demon could simply be asexual!
Maybe they just get the sex of their host.
Or maybe its alway been female and just looked bulkier because it had male hosts.
I don't know...doesn't seem right to me. Not with the whole series. I've known Diablo to be male in both voice, act and built. I don't want it to change to suit a writers fantasy.
understood. You want it to stay the same to suit a player's fantasy
I`ve never been into beta testing (I wasn't even looking to get into the d3 until last week). They gave me access to the SC2 beta, a game i didn't really cared about.
0
i hope you can answer one last extrapolating question about a player's ability, do you thing a minor league baseball player is a bad player?
this is exactly my point, its a game, not work; I want it fun. The combat is suppose to be hard, character development should not be hard
0
Of course this is the standard games are held to. A game must be easy to play and hard to master. Its a known psychological faq that you can't flow with a experience if you dont have a degree of competence in it.
Besides you argument about sc2 leagues is exactly what i mean. Bronze League players are good at the game (even if they suck by gold league standards); they have a basic understanding of the game and can play it competitively at some level. Gold league SC2 players excel at the game.
In D2 the moment most people hit nightmare and hell you suck if you did something wrong. You suddenly realize you are not pay the game right and you don't know how to do it. you need to go learn how to play it, check tables and spreadsheets, follow a class guide to reach a good build and have a chance to play at higher dificulties.
0
Imho and in most game developers opinion, a game where most people suck and some where good at its a poorly designed game.
almost everybody should be good at it and some people should excel. Even at university, if most the group fails an item in a test, the item is removed from the test.
0
it happens all the time. People are afraid of change, people like things to stay the same. But thing always change and many times for the best.
People who want to keep some or all the mechanics of d2 are just like the conservative individuals that though this new inventions wouldn't work. All of this inventions and the systems of d3 have gone throu lot sof though and are what have been found to be most optimal backed by empirical evidence. They run models of this systems. They hire ecnomists to tell them how to mantain the ecnomy of te game and the way people make choices. They hire matemathians and game theorist to develop content and balance the game. THey hire psychologist to inform them that the average individual doesn't like permanent choices, even if they say they do.
It'll be ok. the game will be great, we will enjoy it. relax, Allow yourself to enjoy the game, as in the end,it'll be your preconceptions and prejudices will be what wont allow you to enjoy it, not the systems and changes from D2.
0
Dude relax and read the whole thread before flaming like that, the OP said at least twice in the thread the he understands the system now. He also said from the beginning that he doesn't know about it and really wanted to know.
0
Thats good because is the only stat you won't get in D3 :D.
On a more serious note, as they corrected me earlier stats are still there, you want more dexterity, gear it up!
Besides that, now you have your primary atribute, which you're always want to max, and the secondary or derived stats (dodge, armor , resistance and life) which should be you focus.
You want more dodge, look for dodge and dex in your items. If its resistances you need, go find more res and int gear.
And its true with atribute points as rewards for leveling, you could boost those stats to further differientiate your character. but given the current system the most logical route would be to dump everything in your main stat, which will give you damage and some sort of defense.
Furthermore we need to realize (or realise) that one of the reasons stat points per level were removed from the game is because a a level 60 barbarian with 200 points of strenght will play in exactly the same way than a level 60 barbarian with 300 points of strenght.
0
You guys are right and thats what i meant, i must have lost my train of thought somewhere, coupled with the fact that english is not my native tongue i ended up saying something completely different that what i meant.
0
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
0
Otherwise would be like complaining in real life because all chain mail armor looks alike.
0
A barb with revenge could avoid getting dex to get hit more often, but would instead raise int to get more resistances.
EDIT: here you can see some high level gear from the barbarian preview.
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/38478-new-level-50-gear-brief-analysis/page__hl__%2Bhigh+%2Blevel+%2Bitems__fromsearch__1
1
So if i can play D3 almost everybody can.
To the OP as 4 player per game is to low is you argument, yours is the burden of proof. You didn't do that in your original post, thats why this can be considered trolling. (and the reasns you subsequentally gave us were just opinions, which are not a good argument against blizzard's four player cap arguments.
0
and i doubt its lillith, i really doudt the d3 logo includes lillith's head. Its diablo, it has never been a man or a woman, justa a demon and in this game it (not she) will look more femenine, probably because it has a female host (leah or adria).
0
understood. You want it to stay the same to suit a player's fantasy
0
Maybe they just get the sex of their host.
Or maybe its alway been female and just looked bulkier because it had male hosts.
0