Well-played WDs are i the 60m to 70m exp/hr range now as well. We're able to keep very fast movement speed up through Spirit Walk/Jaunt and Horrify/Stalker while mowing everything down with Acid Rain.
It does crit but it doesn't show yellow text. This is something about all dots in D3 (RoT is considered a dot). Anyway, if you watch the numbers, you will see the larger crit hits, they just won't be yellow. Maybe they'll fix this display error in a later patch.
Personally feel you're both right - depending on the MP level. At low MPs (0,1,2), I really don't see the need for Bears at all. Sac works 90+% of the time -- yes there's a rare occasion it doesn't but not enough for me to drop another skill to bring Bears in. Also, and credit to Aerialus on posting about this, I'm currently using Zombie Dogs / Final Gift + Circle of Life due to increased Globe drop that combo causes. I've also upped my pickup radius to 32 so I'm grabbing globes that I would miss as I ran forward to clear content. All of this ups damage, ups mana return (which lets me use Jaunt instead of Honored Guest for more speed), gives more cooldown reduction (which puts Jaunt up more often), and all around gives me more speed than putting Bears in that Dog slot. It also gives me the ability to double-sac on an elite pack if there are issues with the first Sac. I'm in the mid-60 mil xp/hr now with this setup and I really wouldn't change much about it.
All of that said, we move into a higher MP level and no question Bears would start to show their worth -- but as we've all discussed before no great reason to go up in MP level if we are farming Paragon XP/Legendaries.
That's what you took from those 9 pages, huh. I heard a blue stating their intended design goal and then asking for feedback as to why we felt they did not meet this goal with the current mechanics:
The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items . . . I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)
A good portion of that feedback states much the same that has been stated in this thread. Current rewards are not "pretty cool" as intended because they do not correctly scale with difficulty / time invested.
This is a mechanic that is baked-in throughout the game though! There is ALWAYS (well, once you hit 60) a breaking point beyond which you cannot progress without losing efficiency. For example, think back to before we had MP. A lot of players by that time had cleared Inferno Act I, and were progressing through Act II and Act III. Now, if that describes where your character was at, I'll bet that you spent most of your time running Act I over and over. Why? Because if you ran Act II, even though you technically COULD finish it, you would die a lot, it wasn't as fun, and you weren't getting as many drops per hour because of your slow kill speed.
How is choosing to stay and farm Act I in that situation any different than choosing to stay and farm MP1 over going "ahead" to MP2+ in our current situation?
EDIT: And also, shouldn't we WANT a breaking point like that in the game? If you reach the point where nothing in the game is challenging anymore and you've got all the gear you need to faceroll every type of monster/elite out there... what's the point of playing? The breaking point gives us a progression goal.
You make a good point generally as I absolutely agree there should be progression levels which could also be viewed as breaking points. I guess for me the difference is that before we chose not to do the next level higher difficulty because we were dying / the content was beyond where our gear could reliably take us. So we farmed better gear until we stopped dying so much. Now, we choose lower difficulties not because we are dying or because the higher difficulty is too challenging but because the reward does not scale with the additional time. I guess someone could view that as semantics but for me it doesn't "feel" right.
It also seems to promote playing the game at a level where there is little challenge and you can one-shot most things / kill elite packs in 3-4 seconds (whatever MP level that is for you). If you up the challenge to where you are taking 10 seconds or 20 seconds on an elite pack and may be in some danger, the reward does not scale. I guess you could say the challenge is the reward . . . but usually in games, there are increased in-game incentives (rewards) that align with the increased challenge. It seems the opposite here.
I have done this (run spreadsheets) and must diagree with you. The difference between MP1 and MP4 on most static maps (like fields of misery) is less than 10 seconds for me -- like 1:38 versus 1:48; and up to MP6, it's another 20 seconds. Frankly, that's less time than I spend IDing stuff and pausing/chatting.
Ok, and between MP6 and MP10? Because, barring you have the best gear I've ever seen, there is a breaking point for you where the next level up is not beneficial. For some people the difference between MP0 and MP4 is negligible because they overkill at MP0 and still one shot at MP4. But for that same person, they are just barely one-shotting MP4 mobs. And now that same person goes to MP8 . . . now there is a difference -- kill time has gone up much faster than xp/mf bonus. Sounds like your breaking point is higher than 95+% of the population, congratulations on that, but it is still there.
Anyone that has run a spreadsheet on runs over time knows that with current XP/MF bonuses, there is a breaking point where the next highest (and any higher MP level beyond that) is a penalty / less efficient option to choose. If you are OK with that as a mechanic, clearly we'll just have to agree to disagree.
As a compromise, Blizzard gave the "rewards" of slightly increased MF, GF, and experience, but if they make those rewards too good, everyone will feel like they "have" to run higher MP levels to make the game "worth" investing time in, hence you only get a slight increase.
To paraphrase your own argument back to you in it's inverse:
when they make those rewards too weak, everyone will feel like they "have" to run lower MP levels to make the game "worth" investing time in
Okay, so you're saying that those people who like to do a challenge get double reward (insane loot/xp from high MP plus the challenge they're looking for), while people who can't play high MP and don't want a challenge get nothing (crap loot on low MP, less xp on low MP)? That's just... ridiculous. As was mentioned - high MP are an optional challenge for players. You want to force everyone into playing high MP.
Tell me where I said this. It's great if you want a strawman argument to fight against but don't put words in my mouth. I think the bonuses should be scaled to where it is net-neutral. You are neither rewarded nor penalized for playing a more challenging MP level.
Right now with the way the bonuses are scaled you are penalized for choosing higher MP levels . . I don't want others be penalized for choosing lower levels -- why do you want to continue a system where someone else is penalized for choosing higher MP levels?
#1 Yes people run higher MPs for Wardens and Ubers because for those, it is more time efficient. The reward aligns well with the progression here.
#2 I don't think anyone is arguing this but, sadly legendaries per kill is a bad metric. Legendaries and XP per hour played -- that is how people measure it and here is where the reward doesn't align with higher MP.
#3 Yes, depending where your damage is, a higher MP level *may* give you more benefit. However, for everyone right now, there is a breaking point where farming any difficulty higher is a penalty -- you say yours is at MP4 and I'll take your word for it. For me it's between MP2 and MP3. Anything higher is a penalty. I can, you can, many of us *can* farm higher MP levels and be more challenged but the rewards do not encourage us to do so -- in fact they discourage us from doing so.
Right now, the reward system is built so that unless you can steamroll the content at a given MP level, it is not efficient to run it. If you want challenge, great, but expect to be penalized.
Also, don't fool yourself, even if/when you do get to 350k dps, you will still be getting penalized because HP pools, XP/MF, DPS, etc. do not align well especially at very high MP levels to reward you for doing so in their current state.
As a compromise, Blizzard gave the "rewards" of slightly increased MF, GF, and experience, but if they make those rewards too good, everyone will feel like they "have" to run higher MP levels to make the game "worth" investing time in, hence you only get a slight increase.
To paraphrase your own argument back to you in it's inverse:
when they make those rewards too weak, everyone will feel like they "have" to run lower MP levels to make the game "worth" investing time in
That's current state. That is what is broken. If they scaled the bonuses correctly, when you considered the choice to be more challenged by playing a higher MP level, you wouldn't be thinking to yourself, "yeah that'd be more fun but the price for more fun is LESS reward."
Honestly, being penalized for progression is counter-productive to game design and I don't think intended. No, Blizzard did not want people to feel playing at higher MP levels was mandatory . . . but I'm pretty sure they didn't intend for people to feel playing at higher MP levels was a penalty either.
Monster Power was put together fairly quickly in game terms -- they've already adjusted it once after the fact and I don't think it would be beyond them to adjust it again. The math or assumptions were just wrong and not tested thoroughly enough to realize that XP/MF aren't scaling to match the extra time required to complete higher MP levels.
It shouldn't be a penalty to run higher MP -- which is essentially what it amounts to right now. At least make it so that is even -- right now the most efficient way to play is no-challenge, face-roll at low MP. If they bumped XP/MF bonuses on higher MP levels, it wouldn't make it mandatory, it would just make playing at higher MP levels equitable to playing at lower levels. Right now, the reward system is anti-progression / anti-challenge. I wouldn't say to skew it too far the other way where people feel left out if they can't run higher MP but at least scale the reward system so that you aren't penalized for playing a more challenging monster power.
Whatever the effect, it needs to be very visual -- similar to the near-death red or attaining a paragon level or somesuch. On any given night, music blaring, at who know what level of sobriety, that legendary has a high chance of being missed unless the alert is completely in my face - especially if it drops from trash -- which have been a surprising source of many of my legendary drops.
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10 more reasons not to spend any large amount of time farming Hellfire rings.
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All of that said, we move into a higher MP level and no question Bears would start to show their worth -- but as we've all discussed before no great reason to go up in MP level if we are farming Paragon XP/Legendaries.
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The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items . . . I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)
A good portion of that feedback states much the same that has been stated in this thread. Current rewards are not "pretty cool" as intended because they do not correctly scale with difficulty / time invested.
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Statistically speaking this was crazy improbable -- clearly not impossible -- but not likely something I'll ever see again.
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You make a good point generally as I absolutely agree there should be progression levels which could also be viewed as breaking points. I guess for me the difference is that before we chose not to do the next level higher difficulty because we were dying / the content was beyond where our gear could reliably take us. So we farmed better gear until we stopped dying so much. Now, we choose lower difficulties not because we are dying or because the higher difficulty is too challenging but because the reward does not scale with the additional time. I guess someone could view that as semantics but for me it doesn't "feel" right.
It also seems to promote playing the game at a level where there is little challenge and you can one-shot most things / kill elite packs in 3-4 seconds (whatever MP level that is for you). If you up the challenge to where you are taking 10 seconds or 20 seconds on an elite pack and may be in some danger, the reward does not scale. I guess you could say the challenge is the reward . . . but usually in games, there are increased in-game incentives (rewards) that align with the increased challenge. It seems the opposite here.
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Ok, and between MP6 and MP10? Because, barring you have the best gear I've ever seen, there is a breaking point for you where the next level up is not beneficial. For some people the difference between MP0 and MP4 is negligible because they overkill at MP0 and still one shot at MP4. But for that same person, they are just barely one-shotting MP4 mobs. And now that same person goes to MP8 . . . now there is a difference -- kill time has gone up much faster than xp/mf bonus. Sounds like your breaking point is higher than 95+% of the population, congratulations on that, but it is still there.
Also, you already agreed with me. No takebacks!!
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Tell me where I said this. It's great if you want a strawman argument to fight against but don't put words in my mouth. I think the bonuses should be scaled to where it is net-neutral. You are neither rewarded nor penalized for playing a more challenging MP level.
Right now with the way the bonuses are scaled you are penalized for choosing higher MP levels . . I don't want others be penalized for choosing lower levels -- why do you want to continue a system where someone else is penalized for choosing higher MP levels?
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#2 I don't think anyone is arguing this but, sadly legendaries per kill is a bad metric. Legendaries and XP per hour played -- that is how people measure it and here is where the reward doesn't align with higher MP.
#3 Yes, depending where your damage is, a higher MP level *may* give you more benefit. However, for everyone right now, there is a breaking point where farming any difficulty higher is a penalty -- you say yours is at MP4 and I'll take your word for it. For me it's between MP2 and MP3. Anything higher is a penalty. I can, you can, many of us *can* farm higher MP levels and be more challenged but the rewards do not encourage us to do so -- in fact they discourage us from doing so.
Right now, the reward system is built so that unless you can steamroll the content at a given MP level, it is not efficient to run it. If you want challenge, great, but expect to be penalized.
Also, don't fool yourself, even if/when you do get to 350k dps, you will still be getting penalized because HP pools, XP/MF, DPS, etc. do not align well especially at very high MP levels to reward you for doing so in their current state.
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To paraphrase your own argument back to you in it's inverse:
when they make those rewards too weak, everyone will feel like they "have" to run lower MP levels to make the game "worth" investing time in
That's current state. That is what is broken. If they scaled the bonuses correctly, when you considered the choice to be more challenged by playing a higher MP level, you wouldn't be thinking to yourself, "yeah that'd be more fun but the price for more fun is LESS reward."
Honestly, being penalized for progression is counter-productive to game design and I don't think intended. No, Blizzard did not want people to feel playing at higher MP levels was mandatory . . . but I'm pretty sure they didn't intend for people to feel playing at higher MP levels was a penalty either.
Monster Power was put together fairly quickly in game terms -- they've already adjusted it once after the fact and I don't think it would be beyond them to adjust it again. The math or assumptions were just wrong and not tested thoroughly enough to realize that XP/MF aren't scaling to match the extra time required to complete higher MP levels.
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