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Quote from Muktuk

http://www.diablowiki.net/Glass_Cannon

Glass Cannon is being used by the OP as a class concept. You referred to the passive also called Glass Cannon. They have no relation whatsoever.

Where in anything that Blizzard released did they say that the wizard class would be a glass cannon?

I can't find it anywhere in the current site nor do I remember any press release about the Wizard being a glass cannon. Is this glass cannon concept of a wizard simply you're interpretation of how a wizard should be?

If you're projecting Diablo 2 classes into Diablo 3 then this whole argument is pointless. The Barbarian and Wizard are making a come back but that in no way implies they should play the same way they did in D2.

In every piece of fiction, the wizard/mage/sorcerer class has its own interpretation of how the class should work. Even in 4th edition D&D, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a controller class, meaning it does not do the most damage. Just because you have pre-conceived notions of a class does not make it so.

I'll admit that no one questioned this because in many fiction works/worlds, the wizard is portrayed as a glass cannon. But there are equally as many works where the Wizard is a melee fighter with spells or some variation.

Well I can certainly understand not liking the huge numbers especially as we reach level 60 and expansions etc.

But the alternative is to find a Magic Weapon that give +1 dps, and in 2 levels a weapons that gives +2 dps. Not exactly exciting, especially when you reach level 60 and find an ultimate weapon that gives +10 dps. Or an ultimate weapon in the game that only grants +15 dps. Like wow. so... epic.

Just by inflating the numbers by 10, we now have a +10 dps weapon at low levels and a +150 dps weapon at level 60. Same ratio of damage increase but huge difference in terms of excitement level.

Quote from Mysticjbyrd

You are assuming a large area is drastically superior, but that scenario won't pop up every single time.

Only way to prove this is on May 15th. We have no idea about mobs and their actions beyond the Skeletal King.

I will also state one thing, you're assuming that Signature spells cannot be used as main damage sources. I think that's shortsighted, I do agree that we need other damage spells, but its perfectly possible to create a viable build that uses a Signature as your main attack and not just a resource generator. In such builds, a Meteor spell which adds an element of crowd control is preferable to straight up AO.

Granted the rest of your abilities and item mods will need to be geared for this build (eg. + Faster casting) but it can be done, and many including myself will be doing it.

The only point I agree with is that a 3 sec DOT does not account for the additional 25AP that meteor costs. right now (if the site is correct) it deals 5% more dmg on impact, and does 60% dmg over 3 secs. If the effects overlap, and you have the AP for 3 castings of Meteor, That DOT dmg is now 40%-60% dmg every second.

So I would like to see some increase in either impact or DOT dmg but am not expecting a huge increase overall.

Totally agreed our crowd control abilities are superior to the other classes. At least till lvl 13.

Interesting Build I think it could work, but perhaps not very well in inferno. For additional dmg I would switch Frost Hydra for Energy Armor. Still relatively lazy cos the Hydra is a put it down and forget about it spell.

People are missing the point of the OP. He's comparing 1 specific skill/rune from Wizard vs 1 specific skill/rune for a different class.

Class balance was never never never never the concern when creating class abilities. Its the whole reason they chose not to do do ranked PvP. And PvP when it was there was group PvP. That allowed for crazy ideas to abilities, some of which we now have.

If you look at the Wizard vs DH and look at all the skills and passives, the Wizard has a much better bursty dmg ability and utility. Here's the kind of comparison that I think we need to make if we want to complain about the class being under/over powered.

If you complain about this wizard example using so many slot abilities/passives to achieve this, then realise that this comparison is ONLY to calc the max possible damage as far as I can tell from the OP and I didn't choose the spells. Also, there were no other skills I cound find that would add damage to the spell for 1 round, where as the wizard had more than enough to fill all 6 slots.

Which only proves that a spell vs spell comparison between classes that were not meant to be balanced is illogical.
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Assumption: All the damage happens in 1 round (ie. Only 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs not included)
Assumption: 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs already pre-cast
Assumption: Ignoring all Resource Regen
Assumption: Both using a weapon with the same weapon speed
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Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow: 115%+35% = 150%
(I am adding all DOT damage into 1 round)
(I have no idea how to calc for pierce and I have seen no math telling me exactly how to do this)
Marked for Death: Marks an enemy for the next 30sec dealing 12% additional damage
Archery - Bow: 15% increased damage
Steady Aim: 20% increased damage if no mobs in 10 yards

So in 1 Round with Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow, a demon hunter can do 197% Damage.
- If using Bows
- If no mobs in 10 yards
- Every 30 secs, Marked for Death is recast

Cull the Weak - If mobs is slowed do 15% more damage
This was the only other ability/passive I could find to potentially increase Hungering Arrow's damage.
Although I don't profess to be an expert on DH's abilties.
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Magic Missile-Charged Blast: 143% Arcane Damage
Familiar-Sparkflint : Adds 32% dmg for 120 secs
Magic Weapon-Force Weapon: Adds 15% dmg for 120 secs
Glass Cannon-15% to all damage

So in 1 Round with Magic Missile-Charged Blast, a wizard can do 205% Damage
- Every 120 secs, Familiar+Magic Weapon is recast
Also this will apply this (62%) to every single damage spell for the wizard


Slow time-Time Warp: Adds 20% more damage for 8 secs if caught in the Time Warp
Mirror Image-Mirror Mimics: Potentially adds 10% dmg
Archon-Improved Archon: In terms of burst damage, this supposedly adds 1250% dmg for 15secs
These 3 abilities can also be added to increase that 1 round of damage. Mirror Image as far as I know is not 100% guranteed damage, Slow time has a 20sec cooldown but it is consistent, and Archon has a super high cooldown but again, 1250% damage?!? Holy hell, Wrath of the Bezerker for the Barbarian might be a counterpart but I'm pretty sure the DH has no such equivlent.
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Instead of performing what I consider assumption and possibly non-productive Theory Crafting, I was thinking about a way to do something more constructive. And I figure that I don't like the way Blizzard organized the Wizard's spells. Here's my break down of the spell groups.

Signature/Attack Spells
Magic Missile
Shock Pulse
Spectral Blade
Electrocute
Ray of Frost [20AP]
Arcane Orb [35AP]
Arcane Torrent [20AP]
Disintegrate [20AP]
Energy Twister [35AP]
Explosive Blast [20AP + 6sec CD]

Big Budget Spells
Hydra [40AP]
Meteor [60AP]
Blizzard [45AP]

Must Have Spells:
Slow Time [20sec CD]
Teleport [16sec CD]
Mirror Image [15sec CD]
Diamond Skin [15sec CD]

Armor Spells
Energy Armor [25AP-lasts 120sec]
Ice Armor [25AP-lasts 120sec]
Storm Armor [25AP-lasts 120sec]

Buff Spells
Magic Weapon [25AP-lasts 120sec]
Familiar [20AP-lasts 120sec]
Archon [25AP-lasts 120sec]

Wave Spells (Or get out of jail spells)
Frost Nova [12sec CD]
Wave of Force [25AP + 15sec]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Assumptions: All 6 slots are active.,

ALL builds will have 1-3 Signature/Attack spells.
Are there builds which won't use even 1 spell here? or more than 3? (Nothing Comes to my mind)

Most builds will only have 1 Big Budget Spells or NONE
Any Build using 2 Big Budget Spells will NEED a Signature Spell.
No Build will use all 3 Big Budget Spells
I can think of several ways to get round this but not without gimping my build using passives and +AP runes.

ALL builds will have 1-3 of Must Have Spells
Not having Must Have Spells will gimp your build IMO, which spell is picked depends of plaaystyle and preference

Builds will only have 1 Armor Spell or NONE.
I can't think of ANY build that would have 2 or even 3.

Any MAX Dmg Build needs at least 1 Buff Spell.
We all want to max our dmg output but the few who actually think DPS is KING to the exclusion of all else will need at least one of these Buff Spells and possibly all 3.

No Special mention for Wave Spells
Getting surrounded by mobs is a wizard's worst fear. Many ways to by pass this eg. Teleport or Archon-Arcane Destruction are alternatives for a wizard's safety but I think most builds would want at least 1 of them.


So do you think that these main precepts would encompass about 80% of builds and most what anyone would create? What are builds that would break these precepts either using runes/pasives or a really creative but yet viable build?

Demon hunter - Hungering Arrow: 230-300% wpn dmg depending on rune. (Homing capabilities, which make it near impossible to miss.)
- Generates 3 Hatred 115% Dmg & 35% Pierce
- Please explain how you arrive at 230%-300% with the runes. I have no idea how you are calculating the Pierce effect.
- Also important to note, If you compare casting time of a Magic Missile vs a Hungering Arrow, Magic Missile wins. You can literally spam MM much faster than you can Hungering Arrow. I have no idea how to calculate this but the difference is noticible.

=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.

Witch Doctor - Poison dart - splinters - 180% wpn dmg (Very efficient with low overkill, as the other darts will fly past the mob if he dies from the 1st one or 2.)
- You do ralize that moving targets are a problem with this spell right? I've had many many instances when the first dart hits but because the monster was moving the other 2 darts miss.
- Again, Poison dart - splinters is very slow compared with Magic Missile. Much slower than Hungering Arrow as well. There is no denying the time it takes to blow all 3 darts.

=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.

Now compare those to the Wizards single target abilities
Wizard - Magic Missile - Charged Blast - 143% wpn dmg (Noting Special)
- You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.


For the second comparison, you have to take into account the differences of the spells, resource regen, weapon speed and passives used. Its a whole package. You cannot and I truly believe that you CANNOT do a direct spell vs spell comparison. The playstyle and over all dmg includes all abilities and Passives chosen.

Wizard if using Meteor and maxing dmg would probably take the passives:
- Conflaguration adds 10% to all dmg taken for 3 sec
- Glass Cannon - all dmg +15%, -10% Armor & Resists

WD if taking Zombie Bears and maxing dmg might take:
- Pierce the Veil - + 15% dmg, +30% all mana costs

Demon Hunter using Cluster Arrow might use:
- Archery - +15% increase dmg (assuming its a bow)

The Wizard is the only class with a Time Warp spell effect or Stretch Time spell effect. Both would significantly increase a wizard's damage output and provide survivability.

In Hell and beyond, there is no way a single class will fall to just 1 spell. Its a combination of spells and effects. So your constant spell by spell comparison is really illogical to me. If you wanted to do that then every single spell for each class should act the exact same way, only with different graphics. But Blizzard has crafted the spells/abilities for each class to include subtle differences with effects like DOT, Pierce, casting delay etc. I think a direct one on one class/spell comparison focusing only on highest dps is very short sighted.


PS. Not saying you shouldn't do such a comparison but you need to provide a more in depth analysis listing out assumptions and constants etc. Otherwise... like I said, very short sighted and illogical to me. Right now all your arguments just feel like a knee jerk and poorly thought out reaction.

Had to look up who/what Tenacious D was.

And now I know they are a band. New fact of the day for me.

Interesting build. However it seems you're using the Ray of frost mostly to slow targets. If you changed it to Magic Missile and switched your passive to Temporial Flux, all 3 attack spells are now arcane and you get the slow effect on all of them.

At level 31 you can use penetrating blast rune on MM, but at 42 you can switch to Attunement if you need more AP.

http://d3db.com/tool/calculator/wizard/13499

Please cool down for heavens sake.

First off, it looks like the site you're referencing is out of date. This is the text on the official diablo 3 site.
Meteor does 250% weapon damage as Fire to all enemies it crashes into. The ground it hits is scorched with molten fire that deals 100% weapon damage as Fire over 3 seconds. And Arcane Orb does 250% weapon damage.

More over your calculations are completely illogical to me. You quote calculations of "%WD/EAP" which you're right Arcane Orb is more AP efficient. An instant dmg spell vs a instant dmg + DOT spell. We're not counting the potential larger radius of Meteor, and the advantages of kiting mobs in that fire. I just don't believe that "%WD/EAP" is a good indication of a spell's usefulness.

You use Arcane Orb- Obliteration / Meteor- Star Pact for comparison. Errrrr.... Obliteration increases the damage of Arcane Orb to 325%. Star Pact reduces the casting cost of Meteor to 42 AP. The 2 runes are in no way shape or form comparable. If you're going to use a decrease AP rune on one spell, use it on the other as well. Otherwise the comparison is apples to oranges.

Final point, chances are if you choose to use Meteor, you'll want to also take Conflagration as a passive to maximize your damage and possibly Temporal Flux for Arcane Orb. It makes comparisons very difficult if not impossible I'm sure but they are logical choices that have to be considered for every build and if you want to do comparisons.

Quote from Antirepublican

Once these 2 factors are considered, you can clearly see that Arcane Orb is by far the better spell. This in turn dictates that either meteor is gimp, or arcane orb is OP. Though when comparing to the numbers of other skills, it does not appear that Arcane Orb is really anything extraordinary. Which leads us to but one conclusion, meteor is gimp.

Base spell to base spell, you're probably right, Meteor does not seem (on paper) impressive. But with runes and passives added, I think it's very appealing. I'm thinking Comet and Black Ice.

Also why put up a poll when you're just going to reject everyone elses opinions?

Quote from rozmata

It's not that difficulty would really change, just we would have to grind a little less while leveling and we would try to play longer every session and not get tired after 1h play and go sleep cause we are so hardcore and loose nerves fast. I think it would be a fair advantage who can actually advance more every session than others.

Kinda defeats the purpose of playing hardcore. People playing hardcore typically want the game to be harder and prove that they are able to survive with no deaths. In essence bragging rights. Making hardcore "easier" in any way defeats this purpose. The grind should be just as tedious as normal mode and I'm sure there are lots of hardcore players who would not mind the difficulty being upped for even more bragging rights and a sense of achievement.

I love this new Nephalem Valor buff. And chances are multiple champion/elite packs will have a diminishing returns increase on the buff. That's the only way I see it happening, stacking sounds unfeasible since they said that the number of packs would be randomly generated per game.

Once this is implemented, I hope they take away the cooldown or lessen the cooldown for switching skills, at least at lower levels, it is very annoying when you want to test new skills out.

Quote from jaclashflash

You can't master a random spell. Energy twister is absolute crap. Maybe it will get better with runes but I kind of doubt it.

No, but you can potentially create a build that complements a random spell. I don't disagree that alone, Energy twister is kind of a waste of AP. In D2 for the first year of play almost no one touched the lighting tree and certainly Lighting was considered a useless spell. But later on, people started developing strategies for being a Lighting Sorceress, or a charged boltress.

All I'm saying is none of us have tried out all the spells, or all the runes. And there could be builds that complement it. Also we have no idea how mobs will be coming at us. If a whole bunch of fast teleporting mobs charge us, I think Energy twister might be very useful.

Also does anyone know if it dazes or slows targets when it does hit? Once hit by Energy twister is a mob trapped in it for the entire duration? I seriously can't test it in beta cos when it finally does hit, the mob dies instantly. (and these tests I did were all pre-patch 13).

Remember, Disintegrate has piercing but no where does it say this in the text, you have to test it out for yourself. So Energy twister has to have some hidden benefits too. Same thing goes with Hydra, you can only have 1 hydra at a time? Sounds totally useless especially in the later levels. But doesn't stop me from wanting to get the spell and try it out, especially with the Mammoth Hydra rune.