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Thanks Flud!

BTW I might have missed this but, in light of the changes to skills done yesterday, is there mention of an update to the beta to reflect the changes? Or has that already been done?

Save your breath Arcane. Eel is either egging you on or like we previously concluded has a huge ego that will shift all facts into his favor regardless of facts.

From his posts, its obviously he thinks that everything Blizzard has done is a direct result of his superb skills of deduction and reasoning. (** Sarcasm in case you can't tell **)

It never occurred to him that in order to have all the web page updates happen, the decision to switch a wizard from spell numbers to weapon damage was probably in the works at least several weeks before if not months. As assumed by many, the beta we are playing is quite a few builds behind what Blizzard is actually testing internally.

Good post Arcane. However just a couple of questions:
1) Why 1000 base damage? (as opposed to say 100?) Is it for ease of calculation? Just trying to get a sense for the calculations and basis for comparisons.
5) Its a good start I think. However, a little limiting but I see the need for rules to follow.

For example, Procylon's use of Frost Nova (a utility) should be excluded because it is (1) a utility and given the time frame of 7 seconds, an excellent way to increase dmg by 110% for 4 seconds and applies to all damage spells.

Where do we go from here. Folks will inevitably want to start creating builds/combos, with more than just 2 spells and will want to add utility/passives. What rules should be restrict ourselves to?

OMG OMG OMG

I figured that the max damage cap could be increased beyond 100k. And not only is AO awesome damage, its also AoE dmg!!! Forget disintegrate, if you can handle keeping AT up all the time, you're golden.

Scenario #AB
Astral Presence +20 AP and +2/sec regeneration
Prodigy - +5AP
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Storm Armor-Golden 7AP cost reduction in skills
Arcane Orb - Crimson - 351.5dmg (28AP)
Magic Missile-Golden 50.5 dmg and 14AP per hit
Arcane Torrent - Crimson - 144dmg + Disruption for 6 secs (13AP)
Duration: 120sec
Method: Cast AT once, cast AO next 6 secs, MM till max(3 times), repeat
= ~94757.76 Damage

Scenario #AC
Astral Presence +20 AP and +2/sec regeneration
Prodigy - +5AP
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Energy Armor - Indigo +40Ap
Arcane Orb - Crimson - 351.5dmg (35AP)
Magic Missile-Golden 50.5 dmg and 14AP per hit
Arcane Torrent - Crimson - 144dmg + Disruption for 6 secs (20AP)
Duration: 120sec
Method: Cast AT, Cast AO next 5 sec, Cast AT, Cast AO Next 5 sec, Cast AT, Cast MM next 5 secs, repeat
= ~101073.12 Damage

With this scenario, You have a 160AP pool, and can keep AT up constantly except for the 1st second. You can do 2 sets of AT + 5AO, AT again then 5 MM (cos MM is arcane dmg). Someone check my numbers to keep me from Lying. My only regret is we can't also have Temporal Flux up.
And in my estimation, finish the final skill with Slow time so you can spam the whole sequence even faster!
http://us.battle.net...kQOS!YbX!bZZYZa

Quote from Mooch_

Sorry to nitpick, but I think that we should compare not only Electrocute hitting 3 targets, but also Meteor hitting all three. This damage output could be compared to the rotation of AT and AT buffed Disintegrate hitting 3 targets. The outcome of such a comparison could show which AoE spell (at least right now) reigns surpreme, given that neither are particularly awesome at always hitting three mobs, especially if they are anywhere near as fast as the pygmies from d2 act3... Just some suggestions to keep the ball rolling!

Uhhhh... ok sure, so I basically took the damage from all Meteors and multiplied by 3 (Scenario D)
= 165886.4 dmg

Logic tells you it's crazy awesome dmg, however unrealistic, cos you can also do the same with Disintegrate, have 3 mobs stand close in a row, AT dmg might affect all 3 and Disintegrate will hit all 3 cos of pierce.

Arcane Dynamo is a lot more work to predict in a spreadsheet, cos you can only gain 1 charge ever 1.5 secs. But doable, I'll look at it tonight. Not sure what you mean about Prodigy. Scenario A doesn't need it cos there is 0AP used. and in B & C, it is the main AP regen skill.

Making some really really unlikely scenarios using Electrocute which is why I didn't include them originally.

Scenario #D
Astral Presence +20 AP and +2/sec regeneration
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Electrocute - Golden (HUGE ASSUMPTION of hitting 3 targets for +21AP every cast) - 90 dmg (again assuming 30dmg per target - very very unlikely)
Meteor - Crimson - 633.5 dmg/sec (Ignore burning beyond 1st sec)
Energy Armor - +40 AP
Duration: 120 sec
Method: Meteor till AP gone, then MM till Full AP, repeat
= 62499.2 Damage


Scenario E is very funky. In order not to get the same results as scenario D, I had to do 3 Meteor + 4 Ele + 3 Meteor + 3 Ele .... (so AP regen on the 3 Ele's were not quite to max.)

Scenario #E
Astral Presence +20 AP and +2/sec regeneration
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Electrocute - Golden (HUGE ASSUMPTION of hitting 3 targets for +21AP every cast) - 90 dmg (again assuming 30dmg per target - very very unlikely)
Meteor - Crimson - 633.5 dmg/sec (Ignore burning beyond 1st sec)
Energy Armor - +40 AP
Prodigy - +5AP
Duration: 120 sec
Method: Meteor till AP gone, then MM till Full AP, repeat
= 66847.2 Damage

There's lots of unknowns such as would all missiles from a Folked MM hit targets? How large is the radius of Meteor, Is Blizzard feasible as a damage spell or is it only for kiting? Hydra, just how many bolts can it breath per sec or for 9 secs? Is it possible for a decent wand to do over 60 dps which would make Virtuosity and better than Crimson MM?

But while we're in that vein I thought to add a few more scenarios. Meteor's numbers don't look as good as Disintegrate and AT but its also an AoE spell and no one has really seen it in action.

Disclaimer: This is Diablo 3 and honestly Max damage builds are not always the best options. So don't think Crimson Familiar and Glass Cannons are mandatory in builds. And if it turns out they are mandatory, Blizzard will nerf them, count on it.

Scenario #A
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Magic Missile-Crimson 111.5 dmg
Method: Cast MM all the way
= ~21408 Damage



Scenario #B
Astral Presence +20 AP and +2/sec regeneration
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Magic Missile-Golden 50.5 dmg , +14AP
Meteor - Crimson - 633.5 dmg/sec (Ignore burning beyond 1st sec)
Energy Armor - Indigo +40 AP
Prodigy - +5AP
Method: Meteor till AP gone, then MM till Full AP, repeat
= ~51672 Damage


Scenario #C
Astral Presence +20 AP and +2/sec regeneration
Glass Cannon +20% damage -10% armor & resistances
Familiar-Crimson +40% damage
Magic Missile-Crimson 111.5 dmg
Meteor - Crimson - 633.5 dmg/sec (Ignore burning beyond 1st sec)
Energy Armor - Indigo +40 AP
Prodigy
Method: Meteor till AP gone, then MM till Full AP, repeat
= ~51475.2 Damage

Awesome job DKR_87. Some minor nitpicky math details

Scenario #1 - Actually got the exact same number you did
Scenario #2 - Got the exact same number as scenario 1 - 63609.6 But its a minor diff regardless.
Scenario #3 - Got the exact same number you did

Scenario #4 - Had to finagle 2 rows but I see how you got the numbers
However the first cast of AP is not at 120% so it should be ~64609.28 dmg

Scenario #5 - Unless I miss something RoF will never get the 120% damage boost, its not arcane dmg.

Scenario #6 - Got the same number you did, but again 1st cast of AT does not have 120% so it should be 79904.64]
But I did crunch the number if you cast Disintegrate for 5 sec then AT on the 6th sec then its 84133.12 dmg

Scenario #7 - Again Unless I miss something RoF will never get the 120% damage boost, its not arcane dmg.

This build can be very fun. But some changes I would make.
- No reason for this build to ever need Prodigy. But you also have 3 spells with cooldowns. Switch to Evocation.

This is personal preference, but I'm not sure about crit chance using this build. Will wizard gear have a lot of precision/crit? So I switched

• -Archon with Indigo for an extra Slow Time, but only if it also takes on the properties of your Alabaster rune
• - or - Arcane Orb with Obsidian Rune, now you have protection against any mobs that get too close + they will take dmg and get slowed allowing you to get out of there.

- Final change which is also pure preference is using MM with Alabaster rune. No Aiming.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#ZSOhei!VZd!aaZZcY

Hmmm... I was thinking that since you are technically doing a melee build with SB and MW, using an Obsidian rune on Energy Twister might not be the best option.

It's true you'll like using knock back from SB/MW, so why not use Wicked Wind (Alabaster). Wicked Wind would take care of mobs who didn't get knocked back since its stationary and would even help with elites. Of course it would also depend on how impressive that huge ET from Obsidian is, both in numbers and visually.

One more thing, instead of Frost Nova. What about Arcane Torrent with Obsidian to create Arcane Mines. Place the mines just right, wade in, knock them into the mines , and any still alive will need to contend with your ET's.
I'm assuming you use Arcane Torrent before wading into battle so AP should not be much of an issue.

That's actually the point Panthera. Many people are using Signature spells solely as AP regen only in order to cast spells like Meteor and etc. But as the numbers are proving (with lots of assumptions), if ruined correctly they really do stand on their own and should be part of your spell cycle.

I think Prodigy is on-proc, not on hit, but need confirmation on this. Which means if you do use it as AP regen, only, you don't even need to bother aiming. Just click click click to get AP and cast your dmg spell.

I'm a completionist too and I can't stand not killing anything that moves. But I also realize that doing that would make for a pretty long and boring video. At least for most viewers.

Quote from DKR_87

Hey emyln,

I just wondered...concerning our conversation about MM-Indigo vs MM-Crimson and all that...

Is MM-Crimson/Indigo the highest damaging Sig skill? <<<<< I thought to myself.

Shock Pulse-Crimson looks awfully attractive.

If all 8 missile from Fork hits a target, you'll do 204 avg damage. (not calculating in passives/buffs) Hitting all 8 might prove to be difficult!

If only 2 Fire bolts hit a target, you can do 210. While only 1 may hit, (110.5 dmg), you do have the possibility of doing 331.5 dmg if all 3 hit. PLUS getting the 5 AP from Prodigy but doing more damage!.

I'll try to remember to work out some numbers to see if Shock Pulse-Crimson has an edge of MM-Indigo. It does over MM-Crimson for sure.

DKR

Ohhh good find. Shock Pulse seems very promising. I wonder if there is a short casting cooldown on this because I expected this to act like the Charged Bolt in D2, however I don't think I've seen any footage of spamming of this spell which makes me wonder why.

One danger of Shock Pulse if it acts like Charged Bolt, is that to get full effect from the spell, you would have to be quite close to the target for them to receive the dmg from all the bolts. But that's only for elites and above, and sadly no chance of a 22+ bolt build which carried me through Hell in D2.

Quote from ArcaneWeapon

Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.

Hmmm I guess it could work that way too. But I've got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that it works the way I envision it to, all 8 will hit the same target

Quote from DKR_87

I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.

EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?

Glad that I've at least generated some curiosity into Magic Missile. Have I mentioned I love the spell? (Visions of D&D 1st edition, 1 missile every 2 levels).

I have been eyeing Arcane Torrent, and I interpret it as calc damage, add Attack attribute Dmg, multiply by 1.6, and multiply again by 2.2 But then again that's a lot of damage, and I don't quite understand if AT does area dmg? casting delay? Or does it deal dmg at the precise point the mouse is over, and instead of a ray it just... does damage.