Shut up with the "its to confusing" already. The only one that is confused is you. Blizzard can easily implement such PvP features without supporting eSports end point.
Second nobody said anything about hostility you are just giving us garbage to distract us.
Blizzard doesn't need to run "two games" all the have to do is give us our PvP features and never touch the PvP again. We will handle EVERYTHING else.
You are just an angry person that doesn't want to share.
They are giving you PvP features. You just are unable to accept them. As for the confusion comment, it was Blizzard that stated that implementing more competitively focused features would lead to confusion as to what level of support they giving PvP.
As for hostility, you didn't actually read the suggestion you stated yourself was a middle~ground did you? Right in the suggestion it asks to add 'hostility by consent', which is dueling or willful hostility...both of which Blizzard has stated they will never implement.
Blizzard would end up having to run 'two games' as they give people the impression that they are supporting eSports. Adding a large amount of features primarily focused on competitive play will create such an impression. In addition to creating the confusion, it will make Blizzard look bad due to half~implementing a competitive system. If it was as simple of an issue as you make it seem, why wouldn't they just do it?
As far as me being angry goes...I'm not? I have little to be angry about as Blizzard has stated their plans and their plans are what I want. If anyone is angry it seems to be you.
'' 12:48 AM - Friend: D2 = PVP now that being said their were a bunch of ppl like u who just farmed and stuff
12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is''
he's pretty damn right... »D2 didn't have alot of end game PVE content but there was alot of challenge in PVP in the sense that you could make many differents builds and then compare their strenghts with other players. You couldnt really compare your strenght with PVE content.
Not exactly true. In Diablo 2 you would frequently run into builds that couldn't make it past nightmare/hell due to various issues. This is what lead to the realization by many that Diablo 2 really didn't have much actual customization (many builds just weren't viable). In Diablo 3 they have Inferno for really testing your skills in PvM. In addition to this, you will have Arena PvP to test your builds against players as well.
Ecutruin: Casual games all the time sounds really fun. For a day or two. Casuals dsnt play very offen and dsnt make the community thrive at all. What kind of players do you think sticks around for a very long time and why do they stick around? Killing people just for killing them sounds meaningless and idiotically boring. Even you will stop enjoying it i'm sure. Why go into a arena game where you get banners and achievements as rewards while you can PvE and get gear and sell it or build other characters? There is no PvP progression system at all that will make people stay and fight. Honestly, you can watch a movie while hitting someone and not being useful at all and still get rewarded even if you lose. How awsome is that? PvP will die fairly quickly no doubt. Fun wont become fun, fun will become uninteresting, boring and unsatisfying.
I think you're missing the main point here, Conax. Diablo 3 isn't a game focused around PvP. The focus of Diablo 3's development has been co~op PvM from the start and continues to be so. They are implementing PvP as a fun thing to do when you don't feel like grinding monsters. Since there is no way to get gear, levels, etc from PvP (as far as we know), there is NO incentive period to ONLY PvP. It is an extra, meant for entertainment and not progression.
This isn't a bad thing. It may seem like one to you or others that played Diablo 2 PvP competitively and feel like Blizzard took it away from them in Diablo 3. However, that just isn't true as Diablo 3 is a new game with new design goals. Its like complaining that Farmville doesn't let you invade players and kill their animals....its just not the intent of the game.
1) Put basic tools in place for the community to use in any way they wish but not officially supporting the PvP side of the game
- This would include making x arena maps, y game modes ( CTF, FFA, TvT DM, LMS) giving a wide range of options, implementing a "hostile by concent" in regular games so people can atleast hit eachother ( if both concenting to it ) in regular games.
- This will lead to 3rd party communities making their own rules for the games, 3rd party ladders and 3rd party tournaments all wich are self policing and where "overpowered" abilities will be banned and managed in a way to make the experience as balanced as it can for the members within that community.
- Release mod tools for PvP arenas and let the community create their own pvp maps
I'm curious if either of you stating this is a middle ground ACTUALLY read it. This option creates the EXACT confusion I was stating would happen. It gives people the impression that Blizzard is supporting competitive play when they clearly stated they would not be. It would take a large amount of development time to achieve, taking development time from other areas. It suggests implementing hostility which the majority of people are COMPLETELY against (and Blizzard has stated would NEVER be implemented). This isn't a compromise at all, its giving the competitive PvP players what they want without actually considering the ramifications at all.
Blizzard has openly stated they have no interest in managing two games (separate PvP and PvM featuresets, balance, etc). This is why the Arena mode is being designed as a casual system where people can just duke it out. Stop trying to shove something into the game that even the developers don't want.
The ONLY thing I could possibly think would be a viable 'middle ground' would be private Arenas. Same Arena rules as public, no customization, no extras, just Arena that you can invite people to. However, even that idea has turned sour in my mind due to my experience with the competitive PvP crowd here.
Not every game needs a ton of competitive options. You wouldn't go on a Farmville forum and demand they add competitive PvP with ladders, customization, etc...would you? Why do that kind of stuff here when clearly the developer's intent is casual?
There are noobs and retards that cannot beat AI in SC (or SC2), doesn't make those PVE games.
There are probably a lot of noobs and retards that cannot beat insane AI in SC2, therefor finding higher level of the PVE aspects challenging and enjoyable to play, and that population is probably pretty big... Still doesn't make SC2 a PVE game.
Wow, you choose to use insults and derogatory comments to make a point? I'm sorry, but you really show exactly why many don't want a competitive community in Diablo 3. I really hope Blizzard sticks to their guns.
Your analogy doesn't make any sense either, because SCII isn't meant to be a PvM game. It was designed as a competitive game. Diablo 3 is designed as a PvM game focusing around co~op play, with an added casual PvP component. Big difference there.
There is no confusion at all, it is actually quite simple and straight forward.
Blizzard can tinker and play around with an officially supported casual version of PvP but at the same time give the option of creating private pvp games together with options to tweak the experience as the creator of that perticular "game" see fit.
This private game will not show up as an official blizzard arena game and cannot be joined via match making system.
Everyone is happy.
What you want on the other hand is to pigeonhole people wich I think takes away from the game without really benefiting either side of this argument / camp.
These private games could be setup within the range of options that blizzard provides, wich should not be a very resource heavy thing to accomondate since they themselves ( blizzard ) must have some sort of interface in place to work with "official match making arenas" to begin with.
Options such as:
Nummber of players
Duration of match
Map
Game mode: CTF, LMS, TvT, 1vsX, 1v1, 2v2 etc
switch teams randomly after x fights
'use map setting' like tools could be implemented aswell to further enhance and indirectly support the pvp side of the game without investing any time in it, let the communities develop for themselves. Remember Big game hunter ( BGH), one of the most played starcraft maps ever and also happend to be community created.
Think big using little manpower and resources. No confusion, no forced pvp elitism and no whine about pvp imbalance due to items, skills or other things relating to character balance wich also affect PvM balance.
I think the problem you have with this might be something your not conveying.
Do you even realize how long the options you just stated would actually take a large development company like Blizzard to actually do? Interface design alone could take a month or two through quality control. Its not some trivial task as you seem to think. It takes sizable effort.
In addition, you've failed to give a reason why these features would actually be worth the time investment as well. They go against the design that Blizzard has set forth, they would split the community between public and private PvP, etc. I've given reasons they shouldn't add it. It really is like going to a Pokemon forum and complaining that their next game isn't an FPS, because you want it to be. Diablo 3 isn't a competitive PvP game. Why is that so hard to grasp?
"So for me, if a community builds around it similar to the community that built around Diablo II, then I will feel like it’s a success. If that community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better, then to me that's worth continuing to work on the game. That’s success." - Jay Wilson, Director of Diablo 3
Ecut sits there and criticizes the Diablo 2 community and how bad they were and how they arn't welcomed in D3. Yet Jay Wilson, his idol is basing the games success on if Diablo 3's community can match up to Diablo 2's. Even uses such words as "community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better". You don't get that kind of a community if Blizzard holds everyones hands and doesn't give us the ability to craft it ourselves. You don't get that in "casual" arena where losses and wins apparently mean nothing to the mass majority. You don't get that in a predominantly PvM game.
I don't believe I've stated that the Diablo 2 community is bad, or how they aren't welcome. Specifically I stated that those (like yourself) that cannot come to terms with the fact that Diablo 3 is a new game, with a new design, and gameplay...maybe shouldn't buy it. If you're so fixated on the fact that Diablo 3 doesn't have what you loved about Diablo 2... then perhaps you should keep playing Diablo 2.
Many people actually like the new direction Blizzard has taken with Diablo 3 and don't want them to change gears and focus more on even further PvP additions. Blizzard isn't 'holding your hand', they are making a game that has more structured rules. You don't like that, and you lash out. Just because Blizzard didn't design the game FOR YOU doesn't make it a bad game design, or anything of the sort. It just means its a new game that you might not enjoy playing. Which means you stick with a game you do like instead... how is that a bad thing?
Nope, could care less how close it is to D2. D2 wasn't very close to D1 and I still got around to liking it. Then again, they both supported my style of gameplay, so will see with this one. Either way it is what it is, if it sucks to me I move on, if it is fun then great. No point crying over it in every thread like some people do.
You say this, but then complain below about how it isn't what you want it to be...
Also to some people they played Diablo to PvM gear and then to PvP with that gear. They also got involved in the wonderful world of player structured PvP, which should be represented in Diablo 3. So little different then taking pokemon RPG genre to a FPS. Since Diablo is and well should be predominantly PvM based, it should also keep it roots of allowing the community to craft itself and let us have the PvP experience we want, not something that is contrived and well weaker in appearance in every way.
Structured PvP... like Arena's?...you know matchmaking, stable rules, etc?
I love how you continue to bash Blizzard's approach to PvP, stating its weaker or contrived when the reality is that it will actually be better for the majority of players. The new system will allow people to jump right into PvP and be matched up against someone of near equal skill/gear. You won't be required to find a forum, sign up, agree to some established rule system, etc..just to get rolling. You won't have to worry about people not following the rules.
In all honesty, Blizzard's system is a lot better then previous...it's just not what YOU want. That doesn't make it a bad system...it just makes it one you don't like.
Yes you have match making! Wow....great..who cares about that again? Oh but you have hidden rankings that match up....yea, those work great in SC, and well im sure there will be no problems here either ha. Oh wait..you have....casual matches all the time where nothing matters...yea cause that makes sense, im sure it will work just like that. Where is your fantasy world at anyway, I would love to take a trip there.
Yes, casual matches where the goal of playing is to have fun smashing other players in PvP. After all, playing a game for entertainment is a horrible thing that is worthless. What do you possibly get out of a PvP system with visible ranking? Bragging rights? Seriously, there isn't a benefit there...it really just gives people a reason to flaunt their ego and put other people down. I think I'll stick to playing for enjoyment and entertainment.
Some skills will act differently in pvp, so the current tool tips don't necessarily apply to "the arena".
Blizzard has stated that the most they will likely be balancing skills for PvP will be to alter the duration of disables for PvP. A lot of the skills will be exactly as they are for PvM. There does seem to be a decent amount of single target skills though, so it should work out well. The biggest thing to remember is that Blizzard isn't focusing on highly competitive PvP. So you're expect to jump in.. smash each other around with overpowered characters for fun, and go back to killing minions of hell.
Still in the delusional world where the arena is casual eh? Losses don't matter...ha...good one.
Still complaining that the game isn't Diablo 2?
Seriously, Diablo 3 is a new game guys. Blizzard stated early on that their goal was not to have a competitive PvP environment. Why is it even a complaint? Its like people complaining that the next Pokemon game isn't a FPS because they want it to be one. Why do you feel entitled to have it your way? Why am I wrong for wanting it the way Blizzard actually said they want it to be?
I did read your other quotes, but I won't reply to them since it will go nowhere as we see things diffrently.
On this note I can say that there is room for both worlds. You can have casual, ungoverned "meat grinder" kind of PvP in arenas via a matchmaking system for the people who like that. You can also have a more organized and rule/setting governed type of PvP that is supported and self policed by individual communities within the game itself.
What you are proposing is casualisation, wich initself is not a bad thing aslong as you leave options ( if cost and resource effective ) for those who wanna take things further, albeit on their own peril and governed/ran by themselves via 3rd party communities.
I can most definitely promise you that in a not very long time the people who did start pvping in a very casual way/manner ( and liked it, not all are going to ) will want to progress in some form, after they have gone through the more "blizz governed" casual pvp mini-game they might seek out further challenge, thats where 3rd party communities might come into play for them aswell.
As you say it will not be the first thing someone completly new to Diablo will seek out but it is a good way to add longevity to the game and will not cost blizzard any money, as long as the "tools" are provided for the community to develop for themselves. Think use-map settings in Starcraft, how many hours of insane fun have that iniative not brought the original SC community?
Also the whole idea behind letting the community run the pvp side of things ( could very well be alongside a more casualised blizzard sanctioned pvp ) is to avoid the stat padding of official ladders, rankings and all that sort that comes in "official this or that's" wake.
Another, almost even more important aspect is ofcourse the balance issues that probably will arise, certain item combinations together with certain skills and runes will be hard to balance, therefore a single community can agree upon not using x y z skills, items and so forth for the benefit of everyone INSIDE that perticular community without affecting the "more casual blizzard arena" or the PvM side of the game, aswell as beeing resource light on blizzard to further develop the PvM and casual arena side of the game.
It is a win win situation, and one that lets people participate to whatever degree they want.
What you're asking for is Blizzard throwing a lot of development effort into custom Arena games, when their overall goal is specifically to not focus development on competitive features. I think this is something that people forget to realize when saying "Blizzard SHOULD this.." is that it actually ISN'T in Blizzard's best interest to do as you suggest.
Their design for PvP is focused towards casual PvP. They've stated this multiple times. If they implement a feature~set that is focused towards competitive play, it muddles the focus of their design. It creates confusion as to how much support is supposed to be offered, etc.
I'm a bit curious... why is there such a NEED to add competitive PvP into a game that it's developers have already said wasn't their goal? Why do those that are more competitive seem to be entitled to having it in a new game? I know that people liked it in Diablo 2. However, that isn't a goal with Diablo 3 and why should it be? It isn't like Diablo 2 is going away...
Or, they could just do as they are doing... and offer support for PvP in a structured fashion that keeps the PvP side of the game casual. Considering that Blizzard has stated themselves that the primary focus of the game is PvM, it seems that sticking with a more casual approach to PvP would be a good route to go.
In addition, by going this route they encourage those that wouldn't participate at all in PvP to actually play it. Those same people wouldn't likely participate in community~balanced PvP. Structured, but casual PvP seems to be the option that will make the MOST people happy in the long run and is probably the reason Blizzard has chosen that route.
So, there is an equal chance we will or will not get features required for such competitive environment.
Personally, I hope we don't. Primarily due to the reactions I've seen from the competitive players here. I'd rather not encourage such behavior at all.
You know I agree that I had overlooked this to some extent. However I have seen hints of perhaps a dueling option, maybe not a custom arena option.
What they should do, and what I hope they will do, is create a system that allows competitive play, yet make it esoteric enough that most players wont know about it, or will be discouraged from partaking. This creates a controlled environment for competitors, who will come to understand that should they wish to compete they will have to deal with imperfect balance themselves, without creating a system that 'feels broken' to your average player without constant balancing. This negates a lot of potential frustration some players might have, while still providing the option to others.
This is kind of a complicated concept, and perhaps it contradicts some of Blizzards core game design philosophy. The tricky thing here is that Blizzard is very sensitive to creating game systems they can't properly support. This literally sums up the issue with PvP in D3.
That said, I think dueling would be a valid option (essentially the equivalent of /duel in WoW). Players could easily recognize that it's not meant as a game system with incredible depth. To accentuate this they could frame it as almost an easter egg, with no obvious interface button or what have you. However, people who want to participate in competitive PvP could still use this system and add their own depth and balance to it through community forums with rules and guidelines.
What I feel they should do.. is what they ARE doing. Focusing the game away from highly competitive gameplay. Keeping the PvP aspect of the game a more casual Arena mode meant to be played for fun and not prizes. It means that losing doesn't matter, and balance doesn't need to be perfect.
Since this is the route they are already going, seems a good idea for them to stick the course.
ecutruin: So you came here trolling to disorganize the discussion, because you didn't like what it might bring? Now that's nice of you.
So, having an opinion that is counter to your opinion and stating it means I'm trolling? You want a competitive environment, I don't. I've explained why I don't. That somehow makes me a troll? Seems more like trolling when people continually make threads stating Blizzard should make the game competitive when Blizzard themselves said they have NO intention of doing so. They even made a comment to state that the way a competitive environment would affect the players is enough of a reason NOT to add private Arenas.
I would say to anyone who claims Diablo as a franchise is a PvE game they need to go back to WoW. For those who think it is only a PvP game they need to go back to LoL or wait for GW2. Diablo has both pvp and pve/pvm and thats what makes it great.
It's not that Diablo is a PvM only game, it's that the design of the game has always been focused around PvM. This is something Blizzard themselves has stated and has been a driving focus behind Diablo 3. So yes, PvM matters more when it comes to the development of Diablo 3 then PvP does. That's a fact.
The question is how far Blizzard should go when supporting the PvP side of Diablo 3. In my opinion they can do 3 things:
~snip~
I read your three options, but you're missing an option that Blizzard themselves has stated they can do. They can make a casual Arena system that focuses away from highly competitive play. This allows them to ignore heavy balancing changes specifically for PvP as its not aimed at tournament play. A simple matchmaking system that matches people based on wins, gear, levels, etc allows for a better experience for all involved. All of the options you offered assume that Blizzard HAS to go competitive or not at all. When Blizzard themselves already gave their plan.
At the end of the day, if you play Diablo for the PvE only then this game is not for you. If you play Diablo only for the sake of PvP then this game is not for you. ( Beauty is though, that with a cleverly and seperated pvm and pvp both camps can be happy )
This statement is kinda false. Considering that the primary development goal of the game is PvM. This game is most definitely for people that want to just play PvM. However, the second part is true. It is a PvM focused game, and as such you are unable to really effectively 'just PvP'.
Wait.. what? How thoes quotes are complaints? The first one is a valid question that is not insulting anyone and the other might be a misunderstanding of what Blizzard said. Why are you complaining about people asking questions and talking about eSport in a thread that was made for that purpose.
No, the first quote was the original poster attempting to get people on his side, and the second quote was telling those same people to complain as well because Blizzard will change their mind if more complain. That is how most of the PvP threads here go. Notice, I don't tend to post in threads that are theory~crafting class builds and such..
The reality is Blizzard took a heavy handed approach to PvP that angered those that were addicted to Diablo 2 PvP. Those people are coming here and trying to incite more people to get angry in the hope that Blizzard will listen to their complaints and alter their plans. Some of us DO NOT WANT THAT.
I want what Blizzard has promised and announced. I want a casual and fun Arena system that keeps the focus away from highly competitive play. So when people post threads like this one attempting to incite Blizzard to change it...I am against that and will post my opinion and thoughts on the issue as well.
The funny thing is.. I'll post a reply citing Blizzard statements, personal experiences, other posts, etc.. and just try explain WHY I feel things should stay (or try explain WHY Blizzard might have made some of their decisions)...and I get replies that attack me, call me a PvM fanboy, a carebear, a noob, etc.
All because I have a different opinion? Yet.. I'm suppose to just accept that these same people should have a game mode just for them? A place where they teach others to act just like they do and feel justified in doing so because 'they're pro and I'm a noob". No thanks. I'd rather encourage co~op and casual play and give less reasons for people to act like that. Sure, some still will.. but if it has no place to flourish, it won't be encouraged.
So you're saying that we are not allowed to theorize about how this game would play out as an e-sport just because currently it's highly unlikely that it's gonna happen? Why hasn't this topic been closed so far than?
Except that isn't what is happening. What is happening generally (and why I end up posting to many of the threads) is what people are complaining that Blizzard isn't supporting their way of playing. They in~turn bash Blizzard, and various aspects of the community because they are not getting their way. When someone comes in and says something counter to their viewpoint, we get badgered, insulted, etc.. just for actually liking the direction that Blizzard has gone.
Sure, theory~craft away...but don't start your thread with "How many people want Diablo to be an eSport?" and make claims like "I know the said they wouldn't do it but they also said that if there was enough of us who wants Diablo 3 to be an eSport they would do it". That isn't theory~crafting. It's complaining that Diablo 3 isn't focusing on eSport features and encouraging others to complain more as well.
Exactly my point. I have no problem with your opinion, unless you try to make it a fact (that competitive community is negative) because it's based on your experiences.
I would very much like to see a competitive community in Diablo 3. Is that an answer you were looking for?
That isn't an answer to "Do you want all the negativity (created by the clash between casual and competitive) as part of the Diablo 3 community?". The question I asked was a yes or no question and answering it with something other then that isn't actually answering the question....It's just making a side comment.
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They are giving you PvP features. You just are unable to accept them. As for the confusion comment, it was Blizzard that stated that implementing more competitively focused features would lead to confusion as to what level of support they giving PvP.
As for hostility, you didn't actually read the suggestion you stated yourself was a middle~ground did you? Right in the suggestion it asks to add 'hostility by consent', which is dueling or willful hostility...both of which Blizzard has stated they will never implement.
Blizzard would end up having to run 'two games' as they give people the impression that they are supporting eSports. Adding a large amount of features primarily focused on competitive play will create such an impression. In addition to creating the confusion, it will make Blizzard look bad due to half~implementing a competitive system. If it was as simple of an issue as you make it seem, why wouldn't they just do it?
As far as me being angry goes...I'm not? I have little to be angry about as Blizzard has stated their plans and their plans are what I want. If anyone is angry it seems to be you.
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Not exactly true. In Diablo 2 you would frequently run into builds that couldn't make it past nightmare/hell due to various issues. This is what lead to the realization by many that Diablo 2 really didn't have much actual customization (many builds just weren't viable). In Diablo 3 they have Inferno for really testing your skills in PvM. In addition to this, you will have Arena PvP to test your builds against players as well.
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I think you're missing the main point here, Conax. Diablo 3 isn't a game focused around PvP. The focus of Diablo 3's development has been co~op PvM from the start and continues to be so. They are implementing PvP as a fun thing to do when you don't feel like grinding monsters. Since there is no way to get gear, levels, etc from PvP (as far as we know), there is NO incentive period to ONLY PvP. It is an extra, meant for entertainment and not progression.
This isn't a bad thing. It may seem like one to you or others that played Diablo 2 PvP competitively and feel like Blizzard took it away from them in Diablo 3. However, that just isn't true as Diablo 3 is a new game with new design goals. Its like complaining that Farmville doesn't let you invade players and kill their animals....its just not the intent of the game.
Why can't you play the game for what it is?
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I'm curious if either of you stating this is a middle ground ACTUALLY read it. This option creates the EXACT confusion I was stating would happen. It gives people the impression that Blizzard is supporting competitive play when they clearly stated they would not be. It would take a large amount of development time to achieve, taking development time from other areas. It suggests implementing hostility which the majority of people are COMPLETELY against (and Blizzard has stated would NEVER be implemented). This isn't a compromise at all, its giving the competitive PvP players what they want without actually considering the ramifications at all.
Blizzard has openly stated they have no interest in managing two games (separate PvP and PvM featuresets, balance, etc). This is why the Arena mode is being designed as a casual system where people can just duke it out. Stop trying to shove something into the game that even the developers don't want.
The ONLY thing I could possibly think would be a viable 'middle ground' would be private Arenas. Same Arena rules as public, no customization, no extras, just Arena that you can invite people to. However, even that idea has turned sour in my mind due to my experience with the competitive PvP crowd here.
Not every game needs a ton of competitive options. You wouldn't go on a Farmville forum and demand they add competitive PvP with ladders, customization, etc...would you? Why do that kind of stuff here when clearly the developer's intent is casual?
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Wow, you choose to use insults and derogatory comments to make a point? I'm sorry, but you really show exactly why many don't want a competitive community in Diablo 3. I really hope Blizzard sticks to their guns.
Your analogy doesn't make any sense either, because SCII isn't meant to be a PvM game. It was designed as a competitive game. Diablo 3 is designed as a PvM game focusing around co~op play, with an added casual PvP component. Big difference there.
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Do you even realize how long the options you just stated would actually take a large development company like Blizzard to actually do? Interface design alone could take a month or two through quality control. Its not some trivial task as you seem to think. It takes sizable effort.
In addition, you've failed to give a reason why these features would actually be worth the time investment as well. They go against the design that Blizzard has set forth, they would split the community between public and private PvP, etc. I've given reasons they shouldn't add it. It really is like going to a Pokemon forum and complaining that their next game isn't an FPS, because you want it to be. Diablo 3 isn't a competitive PvP game. Why is that so hard to grasp?
I don't believe I've stated that the Diablo 2 community is bad, or how they aren't welcome. Specifically I stated that those (like yourself) that cannot come to terms with the fact that Diablo 3 is a new game, with a new design, and gameplay...maybe shouldn't buy it. If you're so fixated on the fact that Diablo 3 doesn't have what you loved about Diablo 2... then perhaps you should keep playing Diablo 2.
Many people actually like the new direction Blizzard has taken with Diablo 3 and don't want them to change gears and focus more on even further PvP additions. Blizzard isn't 'holding your hand', they are making a game that has more structured rules. You don't like that, and you lash out. Just because Blizzard didn't design the game FOR YOU doesn't make it a bad game design, or anything of the sort. It just means its a new game that you might not enjoy playing. Which means you stick with a game you do like instead... how is that a bad thing?
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You say this, but then complain below about how it isn't what you want it to be...
Structured PvP... like Arena's?...you know matchmaking, stable rules, etc?
I love how you continue to bash Blizzard's approach to PvP, stating its weaker or contrived when the reality is that it will actually be better for the majority of players. The new system will allow people to jump right into PvP and be matched up against someone of near equal skill/gear. You won't be required to find a forum, sign up, agree to some established rule system, etc..just to get rolling. You won't have to worry about people not following the rules.
In all honesty, Blizzard's system is a lot better then previous...it's just not what YOU want. That doesn't make it a bad system...it just makes it one you don't like.
Yes, casual matches where the goal of playing is to have fun smashing other players in PvP. After all, playing a game for entertainment is a horrible thing that is worthless. What do you possibly get out of a PvP system with visible ranking? Bragging rights? Seriously, there isn't a benefit there...it really just gives people a reason to flaunt their ego and put other people down. I think I'll stick to playing for enjoyment and entertainment.
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Blizzard has stated that the most they will likely be balancing skills for PvP will be to alter the duration of disables for PvP. A lot of the skills will be exactly as they are for PvM. There does seem to be a decent amount of single target skills though, so it should work out well. The biggest thing to remember is that Blizzard isn't focusing on highly competitive PvP. So you're expect to jump in.. smash each other around with overpowered characters for fun, and go back to killing minions of hell.
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Still complaining that the game isn't Diablo 2?
Seriously, Diablo 3 is a new game guys. Blizzard stated early on that their goal was not to have a competitive PvP environment. Why is it even a complaint? Its like people complaining that the next Pokemon game isn't a FPS because they want it to be one. Why do you feel entitled to have it your way? Why am I wrong for wanting it the way Blizzard actually said they want it to be?
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What you're asking for is Blizzard throwing a lot of development effort into custom Arena games, when their overall goal is specifically to not focus development on competitive features. I think this is something that people forget to realize when saying "Blizzard SHOULD this.." is that it actually ISN'T in Blizzard's best interest to do as you suggest.
Their design for PvP is focused towards casual PvP. They've stated this multiple times. If they implement a feature~set that is focused towards competitive play, it muddles the focus of their design. It creates confusion as to how much support is supposed to be offered, etc.
I'm a bit curious... why is there such a NEED to add competitive PvP into a game that it's developers have already said wasn't their goal? Why do those that are more competitive seem to be entitled to having it in a new game? I know that people liked it in Diablo 2. However, that isn't a goal with Diablo 3 and why should it be? It isn't like Diablo 2 is going away...
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In addition, by going this route they encourage those that wouldn't participate at all in PvP to actually play it. Those same people wouldn't likely participate in community~balanced PvP. Structured, but casual PvP seems to be the option that will make the MOST people happy in the long run and is probably the reason Blizzard has chosen that route.
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What I feel they should do.. is what they ARE doing. Focusing the game away from highly competitive gameplay. Keeping the PvP aspect of the game a more casual Arena mode meant to be played for fun and not prizes. It means that losing doesn't matter, and balance doesn't need to be perfect.
Since this is the route they are already going, seems a good idea for them to stick the course.
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So, having an opinion that is counter to your opinion and stating it means I'm trolling? You want a competitive environment, I don't. I've explained why I don't. That somehow makes me a troll? Seems more like trolling when people continually make threads stating Blizzard should make the game competitive when Blizzard themselves said they have NO intention of doing so. They even made a comment to state that the way a competitive environment would affect the players is enough of a reason NOT to add private Arenas.
It's not that Diablo is a PvM only game, it's that the design of the game has always been focused around PvM. This is something Blizzard themselves has stated and has been a driving focus behind Diablo 3. So yes, PvM matters more when it comes to the development of Diablo 3 then PvP does. That's a fact.
I read your three options, but you're missing an option that Blizzard themselves has stated they can do. They can make a casual Arena system that focuses away from highly competitive play. This allows them to ignore heavy balancing changes specifically for PvP as its not aimed at tournament play. A simple matchmaking system that matches people based on wins, gear, levels, etc allows for a better experience for all involved. All of the options you offered assume that Blizzard HAS to go competitive or not at all. When Blizzard themselves already gave their plan.
This statement is kinda false. Considering that the primary development goal of the game is PvM. This game is most definitely for people that want to just play PvM. However, the second part is true. It is a PvM focused game, and as such you are unable to really effectively 'just PvP'.
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No, the first quote was the original poster attempting to get people on his side, and the second quote was telling those same people to complain as well because Blizzard will change their mind if more complain. That is how most of the PvP threads here go. Notice, I don't tend to post in threads that are theory~crafting class builds and such..
The reality is Blizzard took a heavy handed approach to PvP that angered those that were addicted to Diablo 2 PvP. Those people are coming here and trying to incite more people to get angry in the hope that Blizzard will listen to their complaints and alter their plans. Some of us DO NOT WANT THAT.
I want what Blizzard has promised and announced. I want a casual and fun Arena system that keeps the focus away from highly competitive play. So when people post threads like this one attempting to incite Blizzard to change it...I am against that and will post my opinion and thoughts on the issue as well.
The funny thing is.. I'll post a reply citing Blizzard statements, personal experiences, other posts, etc.. and just try explain WHY I feel things should stay (or try explain WHY Blizzard might have made some of their decisions)...and I get replies that attack me, call me a PvM fanboy, a carebear, a noob, etc.
All because I have a different opinion? Yet.. I'm suppose to just accept that these same people should have a game mode just for them? A place where they teach others to act just like they do and feel justified in doing so because 'they're pro and I'm a noob". No thanks. I'd rather encourage co~op and casual play and give less reasons for people to act like that. Sure, some still will.. but if it has no place to flourish, it won't be encouraged.
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Except that isn't what is happening. What is happening generally (and why I end up posting to many of the threads) is what people are complaining that Blizzard isn't supporting their way of playing. They in~turn bash Blizzard, and various aspects of the community because they are not getting their way. When someone comes in and says something counter to their viewpoint, we get badgered, insulted, etc.. just for actually liking the direction that Blizzard has gone.
Sure, theory~craft away...but don't start your thread with "How many people want Diablo to be an eSport?" and make claims like "I know the said they wouldn't do it but they also said that if there was enough of us who wants Diablo 3 to be an eSport they would do it". That isn't theory~crafting. It's complaining that Diablo 3 isn't focusing on eSport features and encouraging others to complain more as well.
That isn't an answer to "Do you want all the negativity (created by the clash between casual and competitive) as part of the Diablo 3 community?". The question I asked was a yes or no question and answering it with something other then that isn't actually answering the question....It's just making a side comment.