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    posted a message on Why is 'evil' so common in the d2 universe and 'light' is not?
    Quote from "LinkX" »

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Tyrael's enemy is Diablo. Your enemy is Diablo. Therefore he view's you as someone on his side. You are not actually a champion of light, nor are you a champion of dark, you are a champion of humanity, of Sanctuary.

    Good, in this game, is a relative term at best.


    Very well said. I agree so much, I contemplated putting it as my sig. But then I thought against it lol. Lets just say that your sentences got a nomination lol.

    And the destruction thing... well, I'm not sure. But what PhrozenDragon said about the pile of rubble is a good explanation too. I'd have to agree.

    But, the Death thing... just think that it makes perfect sense for there to be a Lord of Death. Man fears it, it can be gruesome, and is the opposite of life and love. It could very easily be an evil thing. But yet its not, its a 'good' thing. I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I'm just pointing out the similarity and how the line between 'good' and 'evil' is oh so thin.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on The Sin War
    Why did you ask that here? It has nothing to do with the Sin War. Post a new thread if you want, its warrented for a whole new discussion. Because I really don't know what happened to him. He seemed to have been 'freed', but, to where? I'd doubt heaven. I dunno, probably the place go wherever dead angels and/or demons go.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Why is 'evil' so common in the d2 universe and 'light' is not?
    That would be cool. It would resemble what Uldyssian went through. But of course, just like in this thread, religious people would get upset at fighting against good.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on The Sin War
    Why is that so, I wonder?

    Hmm.

    Obviously noone here has the answer, but its something to contemplate.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Why is 'evil' so common in the d2 universe and 'light' is not?
    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »

    Ok, I'll say this. I can agree that both Heaven and Hell view themselves as good, but, the demons are fully aware of the fact that they are seen as more evil by humans than angels, and they are also aware of why that is

    That's true too. They even call themsevles 'Lord of Destruction' and 'Maiden of Anguish' lol. But then again, there is an Archangel of Death too, part of the Angiris Council, dressed in black. That name sounds bad, but because its an angelic thing, somehow its justified. But is it really justified? Are you not being manipulated to accept Death as part of life but fear Destruction? You know, they say that "destruction is a form of creation".

    But Fingolfin, I'm not sure if I would want to stick around archangels too much. They have a tendancy to willingly kill you if it proves to be 'for the greater good' lol, unless you prove your faith entirely. Of course, demons will kill you too, if you're not faithful to them either. I suppose I would prefer to be manipulated than torn apart, because its less painful, but its like you're not even making any choices for yourself. You're just a puppet, your life taken away anyway. Angels and demons are all very manipulative.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on The Sin War
    So, the war is still happening? Then why is it always referenced to as being in the past?

    Anyway, that timeline doesn't include all the events described in The Sin War trilogy.
    It needs updating.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on The Sin War
    When exactly did the Sin War take place? Not the book, the war. I know that its the war for Sanctuary which is believed that whoever wins will win the Great Conflict, which is a huuuge thing to win. But I'm confused, because whenever its mentioned they say it as if it happened a long time ago, but aren't they still fighting for Sanctuary? Isn't that what the whole D1 and D2 was about still?

    The trilogy books about The Sin War seem to be more like how it actually started, rather than the whole war start to finish. Well, it seemed to have finished with a truce, but then there are a whole lot of other stories about things that happened during the Sin War but weren't part of the books. Like, the city of Ureh was supposedly at its greatest during the Sin War, but there was no mention of it from Uldyssian's part. Also, if The Sin War books were the whole thing, then it happened awefully quickly. And the angels didn't even have much time to fight. It was only one battle.

    It makes more sense to say that the Sin War started at the end of the trilogy, when they made that 'truce' kind of thing. And that the war has been going on ever since. Except why do all the texts say it as if it happened a long time ago and has either stopped now or atleast isn't really being fought very hard anymore.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on d3 story
    Uldyssian became a part of Sanctuary - though he did it through his will.

    Maybe everyone's beliefs are right? It seems like you can give up your soul to anyone, but if you don't, then you become a part of the Great Cycle of Being, which is related to Trag'oul. The Necromancers always say that death is merely another stage of life. So clearly there's somewhere that they go, but at the same time we know its possible that their souls can somehow aid heaven or hell, which leads us to assume that its also possible to go to Heaven or Hell when you die, but you would have to allow them to do it. Unless they eat you or something lol.

    So like, if you're a devoted priest, your allowed in heaven? If you're devoted to Bul-Kathos, and you're strong, he has the power to make you an ancient?. If you believe in Trag'oul, you can go to the 'afterlife' place? (which is like default for everyone on sanctuary anyway).

    Maybe.

    BUT, we don't know that for sure. We still need to be explained to on how exactly we aid Heaven or Hell, whether we do it in this life or in the next life. Its possible that we do it in this life, and when we die noone goes to heaven or hell, but only to the 'afterlife' place that Trag'oul talks about. Angels could very well be lying, seducing us with our desire for heaven, and causes us to fight for them so we can go to such a 'heavenly' place.

    Oh yeah, I definitely want real answers too.

    But yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Elfen Lied said.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Why is 'evil' so common in the d2 universe and 'light' is not?
    The discourse represented by Diablo is that Sanctuary must be preserved from both absolute chaos and absolute order. The audience is positioned to believe that neither one of those forces in absoluteness is good for Sanctuary because chaos is destructive and order is stagnant (not meaning it would be boring, but meaning that nothing would happen - the world would stand still). In all of the books Priests of Rathma are present, revealing their view on The Balance and how it is the most important, in which the audience sympathises. 'Good vs evil' is an endless debate, much like the Great Conflict. In the end it is always a personal choice. The core of the Diablo series represent the world of Sanctuary and what is best for itself, without particularly siding with order or chaos. It is fictional but causes us to reflect on our own world and the decisions we make. It is certainly something to take into consideration because such a discourse is heavily marginalised in our culture.

    Num3n, you're religious, aren't you? Careful, because your opinion is somewhat biased. Given the representations presented before you on how if order was to finally win the world would become stagnant (insert Sin War quote here), you still side with order. You have already made your choice of side, and so you will continue to make that same choice with everything. Where as someone who has not made a choice (or has simply made a neutral choice) would view each side as what it is, given the discourse presented to them.

    Careful with everyone's choice of words too. 'Order' and 'chaos' are most appropriate, for they only have one meaning. While 'good' and 'heaven' can also mean pleasant and desirable, and 'evil' can mean bad and undesirable. The words themselves are biased toward choosing order. Therefore using 'order' and 'chaos' equivalently represents the two opposing sides, and allows personal preference to make the decision alone.

    Num3n, you can still play the game as a holy Zakarum warrior, fighting for good so the world can be safe, because that is exactly what those Paladins are doing. They have the exact same values as you, and just because you are joining a world with others that don't quite have the same values, doesn't mean you can't play the game. After all, Paladins are part of that world too, and they have made their choice.

    Edit: Also, back to the original question, the answer comes from the nature of Heaven and Hell. Diablo and his brothers found that forcing humans into submission using fear and terror worked much more efficiently at turning them to their side, while the angels value subtlety and slight influence in turning Sanctuary to their side. That is why the demons are always present, while the angels work in the background and are rarely seen. Any bit of 'good fortune' in the books may or may not be the work of an angel. If you noticed in the Moon of the Spider, an angel was helping Zayl and the girl the whole time, disguising himself as a mysterious stranger, starting conversation with them that invoked certain thoughts into their head that lead them on the right track. Angels are very subtle, and thats also what demons hate so much about them. Its their nature.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on d3 story
    Quote from "SolitariumDesigns" »
    When you die, people say that if you either spend an eternity in bliss(heaven), or in damnation(hell). If this is the case, consider your body to be similar to a soulstone. What happens when your body can no longer sustain your life? Where does your life energy go?? Back to the essence from which it came(essentially God...unless you were corrupt and in which you spend an eternity amidst the most corrupt).

    When the soulstones were destroyed, they were destroyed using the demonic equivalent to the holy magic that created them (there must always be a balance, and that's why you had to use the hellforge). This turn of events reset the balance to what it was before the soulstones were brought to fruition (the Prime Evils continued existence in the Abyss).

    There are a million and one explanations as to what happens after Tyrael destroys the Worldstone (the reason behind the worldstone being introduced presents yet another plot hole). This is where the fun comes in :D


    I think you're right with saying that our bodies are like soulstones, because the necromancers talk about the fleshy body merely being an anchor to this world. However, once that anchor is broken, it is said that the soul becomes a part of sanctuary and the Great Cycle of Being, rather than go to heaven or hell. Maybe if you pledge yourself really hard then you would, but, that part is never actually detailed.

    And that other person is right about the Prime Evils being the essence of Destruction, Hatred, and Terror, and so can never truely be destroyed. They are more like concepts, or ideas, and you can't kill an idea. (I think there's a V for Vendetta quote to go with that - plus its a popular thing to say anyway, just google it)
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Help! Necro City Name?!
    Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »
    You could always make a note about your novel not being offical lore, as well it's not, it might use a large chunk of it, but certain aspects are speculation, do not assume them to be fact.

    I have to do that with the RP thread.


    THats the best idea. Except, don't just say that its not official, explain that it is as accurate as possible given the information provided at the time of writing. And maybe even an example that mentions that the necromancer's city was not yet officially named. That gives it abit more sympathy, so people don't get all angry and think that its crap. Even though that will likely happen anyway.
    Posted in: Diablo II
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    posted a message on d3 story
    Hells yes!

    I just wanna meet more and more unique demons and hear their individual story.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on d3 story
    Remember too that while there are higher forces manipulating Sanctuary to keep it in balance, there are also even higher forces manipulating Heaven and Hell, keeping their 'eternal conflict' in balance.

    One of the necromancers summoned a 'Dreamer' that resembles a toad and is implied to be above Heaven and Hell, asking it for help. Could you imagine? Thats like the equivalent of an angel being summoned by an insect. That would annoy me so much if I was that angel (or demon), or especially a sleeping one like the Dreamer, who clearly only wants to sleep lol. Far too much for us to comprehend.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on d3 story
    The Soulstones weren't completely made by heaven though. Aren't they small fragments of the World Stone? I always thought they were.

    I think the 'good guy falls to darkness' thing works well in stories because its a 'tragic hero' device. I studied the tragic hero formula in english, and used Macbeth and Anakin from Starwars as examples. Both of those stories also have the 'good vs evil' thing to them too, which is different to a tragic hero. I wonder what the opposite is? Tragic villain? lol.

    We probably haven't seen is as much because it may not work as well as a story-telling device. I mean, can you ever trust someone who was once evil? not just a bad person, but an actual demon? They would have to be cleansed, but the only 'cleansing' churches seem to offer is in the form of fire lol. If they did do it, I hope they don't do the whole 'we will never trust you' cliche, or if they do it, atleast don't do it in a cliche way.

    If they treat it the same way as we treat an angel 'falling to darkness', then it could work. They could say that the demon was drawn to the light like a pathetic moth. But come on, as if heaven would accept them. They are like an army, and no army on earth would accept a member of the enemy while still at war. They would lock them away, probably treating them nicely, but nonetheless a prisoner lol. Definitely wouldn't be put into the ranks. The demon would create chaos just by being there.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Diablo Movie
    If they did make a movie, it would pretty much have to be about the Sin War specifically. For the first time the audience experiences Sanctuary, they need to be introduced to the whole world first, before jumping into mini stories like Moon of the Spider or The Kingdom of Shadow, or else they just wouldn't make sense.
    Posted in: Other Games
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