I'm going to attempt to give you some responses from the perspective of the Jew who Went to Catholic School. I'm pretty bad at that, too. At least we're in good company!
Many kudos to you for approaching the topic in kind! I'm quite pleased to find both the level of discourse and the character of the participants to be mature, respectful, and open. D3 fans rock!Quote from Hiero
With a topic title like you have, I was ready to descend with disdainful contempt on your thread and condemn it to the flames for approaching a matter such as this with such hostility. Then, I read your post and realized this was a civil discussion reaching for enlightenment, not a thinly veiled attempt at bashing my beliefs like so many I've seen before. Personally, I don't understand why people think it's fun to do that as anyone, in a moment of anger, can portray themselves and others affiliated with them as much less than they really are. But that's beside the point of this post.
Here I was ready to jump on you for the assumption that being chosen to believe led your your choosing to believe, and then - lo and behold - you presented what I think is probably the most profound sentence of your entire post. That everyone is chosen to believe, but not everyone choses to do so.Quote from Hiero
I believe because I choose to believe. A corollary to that, depending on your beliefs, believe it or not, is that I've been chosen to believe. Personally, I think everyone's been chosen to believe, some people just haven't chosen to believe. I'd also like to be quite clear in that I believe in the existence of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
However, I'm going to throw out two arguments (which are at odds with one another, but in the interest purely of exploring the choice of choosing, I present them both)
1) The old testament clearly states that the Hebrew tribe was chosen by God to be his people. The new testament will later say that this was God choosing to use them as the primary source for spreading His Good Word, and was not a choice that limited forever The Chosen to only be Jews and their descendants, but even in that case it means that no one else is truly chosen to believe until they have been told the Good Word. This would mean that, in fact, not all people are chosen to believe, because not all people have been told the Good Word of God.
2) God presents Himself as fact. No where in the bible does God every ask, tell, or command people to believe in Him. In fact, He is wholly presented as an entity the existence of which cannot be denied. Belief, then, is distilled down to merely knowledge of the existence of God. If you show someone an apple, and then ask if they believe in apples, would be a pretty silly thing to do. Likewise, once someone has been shown God, they can no more chose not to believe in Him than they can chose not to believe in apples. In this argument, it is impossible to choose not to believe once you have been chosen to do so (the assumption being that, in order to know you have been chosen to believe, God has presented himself to you such that you would understand the nature of your choosing).
While these two arguments are at odds with one another to some degree, the both lead to a similar conclusion: Some people are chosen to believe, but not everyone is. This leaves then, in God's plan, space for nonbelievers through no conscious act of the non-believing party. A very simple way to say this would be: It's okay with God if you don't believe in God. Corollary to this, I think most non-believers are perfectly fine with the existence of believers.
Thus, whether or not God exists, everyone should be perfectly happy and secure that God isn't going to get upset with either party, either because He does exist, but is okay with non-believers, or He doesn't exist, and isn't around to care either way.
I'm with you to a degree, but is there any reason you can think of why God would "move through" those boundaries rather than simultaneously existing in all places and times with no need to move at all? I've always imagined that - should a supernatural being of unlimited power exist - God would always be everywhere (and everywhen).Quote from HieroNow that we've established what I believe and the bare skeleton of why, I'll go in to a bit of detail. Let's have a look at the nature of God, in particular, where He is. If wikipedia can be trusted, (I've looked for a relatively neutral source) then God omnipresent. With the linkage of space and time, as has been proven by science, this means that God is everywhen, also. Let us assume we agree thus far on the nature of God if He exists, which I maintain that He does. Simplified, God is outside outside the bounds of time and space. Forgive me if I assume that you know the difficulty in reaching any sort of evidence in proving in temporal and spatial terms the existence of the one being that is not only beyond those boundaries, but can move through them as you and I would move through water (a weak metaphor, but I hope you get my point).
My understanding of the Garden of Eden would be that - prior to eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, all acts were performed in innocence and ignorance - neither good nor evil, and that - even after eating of the fruit, any act performed in innocence or ignorance would remain neither good nor evil. What changed in people was the knowledge of intent. We can - since eating the fruit - be good, or be evil. It was a blessing and a curse. The ability to act with moral intent is what we gained from that Tree. Similarly, one could view the punishment of being tossed out of the Garden as an interpretation of the result of knowing that moral acts existed: Adam and Eve simply could not abide a place where all acts were acts of naiveté, nor could such a place abide them.Quote from HieroI've heard it claimed before that God can't exist simply because evil exists. This theory irritates me to no end because it oversimplifies. That plaintive voice whining, "How could a God that is good allow this world to be filled with such evil?" is a coward for refusing to dive deeply into the matter see what exactly happened to bring about evil. (For this point I'll speak as if you believe, pray forgive me) Simply put, man was created to love. A part of love is the ability to not love, a choosing to love. We were created to experience all good things, and one of those is obedience. To choose to love by acting not by our own will, but by another's. And so, Eve was tempted, caved, and Adam listened to her and caved, too. It's my belief, and I've seen this belief reflected in others such as C.S. Lewis and Ted Dekkar, that sinning (doing evil things) became much easier after "The Fall of Man." I realize this is vague, and presently I will explain it to the best of my ability.
If you read Genesis, it speaks of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was not God's wish that we choose that fruit, because there's nothing good about evil. He only wanted good things for us, so He gave them to us. Thus we had the knowledge of Good. In the choosing of that Tree, we gained knowledge of Evil, and now that we know it and have it, it's difficult to stop. The paradise of only good was lost, and then we had evil along with the good.
I don't believe that the Paradise was a place of pure good. Clearly, there was a snake there whose actions were not "good." Rather, I believe that the Paradise was a place where creatures were unable to act with any desire to harm or benefit. It was a place of pure curiosity. I believe that the snake was curious as to what would happen if someone ate from the tree, but I do not believe that a snake such as that would be allowed in the Garden at all if the Garden was a place of pure Good.
Amen brother.Quote from HieroThat covers some of the points, but that is by no means the entire picture. I'd like to take this opportunity to commend proletaria for asking about this topic without hostility, and, as an aside to give you a bit of background on my character, would like to condemn the condemning of others. Christianity doesn't teach disowning or hatred or redneck ignorance about real issues. It just says to love God, love others, and love yourself. It is surprisingly difficult, though.
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Something about that old saying that given enough time, a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters could write Shakespeare. Though why they'd choose Shakespeare i've yet to find out
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What happened to the first 6 "ups"?
- There were actually 14 submitted, number 7 was the one the testers liked best. They were all the same.
What do sheep count when they can't get to sleep?
- They can't count due to the fact that they have no fingers to count with.
Who were the beta testers for Preparation A through Preparation G?
- Hippies.
If a word in the dictionary were misspelled, how would we know?
- Nothing in the dictionary is misspelled, it's just language evolving.
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
- Love has no eyes, but I do.
If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand
words, how dangerous is a fax?
- Depends... What's the stats on it?
Why do women shave off their eyebrows, then paint them back on?
- It draws attention away from other areas of their physique.
Do bald people have 'bad head' days?
- Sunburn.
What does Queen Elizabeth sing during the British national anthem?
"God Save Me"?
- She uses the royal plural, "God save us."
If all is not lost, where is it?
- It's not lost, it's around here somewhere....
If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?
- Too much of a good thing, y'know?
What do you do when you discover an endangered animal
that eats only endangered plants?
- Boil some water and get ready for some endangered stew!
Why is it that if someone tells you that there are 1 billion stars in the universe you will believe
him, but if he tells you that a wall has wet paint you will have to touch it to be sure?
- Don't act like you don't like peeling the paint off your finger like you're a snake shedding skin.
Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a "whack"?
- It just means you need to hit it, you know, whack it a bit to make it right.
You know how most packages say "Open here". What is the protocol if the package says, "Open somewhere else"?
- Walk to a different room and open it. Easy.
What is a "free" gift ? Aren't all gifts free?
- I can think of a few that aren't. Puppies. You have to feed them and clean up poo.
If Jesus was Jewish, what's he doing with a Mexican name?
- I'm not sure where we get "Jesus" from, tbh. His real name was closer to Joshua.
How come you never hear about gruntled employees?
- They're too busy working.
If a tin whistle is made out of tin (and it is), then what, exactly, is fog horn made out of?
- Never heard of a tin whistle. Never seen a fog horn either, the weather always conspires against me.
If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
- On Mars.
If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?
- self-sabotage?
If all those psychics know the winning lottery numbers, why are they all still working?
- The ones that aren't working don't need the lottery.
If you pull the wings off of a fly, does it become a walk?
- No, a scuttle.
If you're cross-eyed and have dyslexia, can you see okay?
- Not particularly. You see two of everything. That's twice as many words you have trouble with.
How can you "draw a blank"?
-
If nothing sticks to Teflon, how do they stick Teflon on the pan?
- Gorilla Glue, it sticks to everything.
Does 'virgin wool' come from sheep the shepherd hasn't caught yet?
- That's just gross... and yes.
Do they have reserved parking for non-handicapped people at the Special Olympics?
- They should, especially if they expect people to show up to watch.
Why do you need a driver's license to buy liquor when you can't drink and drive?
- But how do you get to the liquor store if you can't drive?
How does the guy who drives the snowplow get to work in the mornings?
- Pretty sure people just chain one to their trucks... No one gets paid for that.
If the 7-11 is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year,
why are there locks on the doors?
- that's a misconception, why do you think it gets robbed so much?
what happens when you turn on the headlights?
- How is this an unanswered question?
Why do they but Braille dots on the keypad of a drive-up ATM?
- It's Morse code for spies.
Why do we drive on 'parkways' and park on 'driveways'?
- watch the parkway during rush hour and you'll see this simply isn't true.
Why is it that when you transport something by car
it's a shipment, and when you transport something
by ship it's called 'cargo'?
- The shipment is of cargo.
You know that little indestructible black box that is
used on planes, why can't they make the whole plane
out of that substance?
- Because boxes can't fly.
Why is it when you're driving and looking for an address,
you turn the volume on the radio down?
- The music is somehow a distraction....
If you throw a cat out the window does it become kitty litter?
- You'd shit yourself too if you were thrown out of a window.
If corn oil comes from corn, where does baby oil come from?
- Abortion clinics.
When a cow laughs does milk come up her nose?
- Every cow I've seen doesn't take kindly to jokes and pranks.
How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?
- They met in a bar.
How do you get the deer to cross at the deer crossing signs?
- Yeah that's a definite misconception, there are no deer at crossing signs, they've learned to avoid them because of all the hunters.
If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
- Whoever told you that you couldn't just wants them all to himself.
What is another word for thesaurus?
- Lexicon.
Why do they sterilize the needle for a lethal injection?
- In case it doesn't work, they don't want the inmate to get sick and die.
Why is abbreviation such a long word?
- Words with latin etymology are normally long due to they're actually many words strung shmushed together.
Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?
- I'd ask one, but....
How do you know when it's time to tune bagpipes?
- Same way you know with everything else, I guess... When they start sounding out of tune.
Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?
- They don't like to eat their own kind. People that have been eating people taste odd.
When you choke a smurf what color does it turn?
- Black, like everyone else.
Do blind Eskimos have seeing eye sled dogs?
- Blind Eskimos don't survive very long, I'd say.
Why is there an expiration date on sour cream and yogurt?
- Because when yogurt starts smelling like rum, you know it's gone bad long ago.
How is styrofoam shipped?
- wrapped in things.
Why do they call it a T.V. set when you only get one?
- Because they try to sell you all sorts of things in the set. Like HDMI sockets an whatnot.
If you shoot a mime, do you have to use a silencer?
- you dont even have to use a gun
Do radioactive cats have 18 half lives?
- Yes. But it's slowly reduced over time at a decreasing rate.
What was the greatest thing before sliced bread?
- Indoor plumbing.
If someone with multiple personalities threatens to
kill himself is it a hostage situation?
- No, it's just freaking creepy. I've got a friend on the police force that's been in that situation. Scariest story I've ever heard.
When you open a new bag of cotton balls should you throw the top one away?
- It took me a moment to get this one. I must be slow. And yeah, you want the fresher ones.
Why do they report power outages on T.V.?
- They're bragging that they're ok.
Does a fish get cramps after eating?
- It does if I've been fishing.
How do you KNOW it's new and improved dog food?
- New and improved? If it's been improved, it's not new.
When it rains why don't sheep shrink?
- They're not cotton...
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?
- Frequently... There'd be less wars.
Why is it you have a pair of pants but only one bra?
- I have no bra.
Why is the alphabet in that order?
- Tradition.
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
- The tears of those with reasoning abilities.
If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
- What's popularity if you have no one to look down on?
How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink?
- when there's a reply, and it says "what?"
What happens if you get scared half-to-death ...twice?
- you have a heart attack.
How is it possible to have a civil war?
- Well, it was originally called The War Between the States, I think.
If someone has a mid-life crisis while playing hide & seek does he
automatically lose because he can't find himself?
- 40 year olds shouldn't be playing hide & seek
If you lick the air does it get wet?
- It does if there was no humidity before hand.
Does fuzzy logic tickle?
- Only if you're Sherlock Holmes.
If a duck's quack can't echo, what about a human's fart?
- Oh, I've had farts that echo.