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Quote from apples

Quote from AnathemicOne

Neither in the definition of omnipotence or omnipresence suggest the idea of one who is "all-knowing," unless said being inherently wants to have that ability (being omnipotent) but as a lesser beings we can never know that now can we?

Even if said being was all-knowing what is to truly know something? Perhaps instead of viewing someone's life journey as a road map think of it as a large tree with endless branches. Say God knows and fully understands this tree of someone and knows all the infinite conclusions on where the branches end, but as said God is is apathetic then it is up to the person him/herself to choose what path lies ahead of him/her no?

with omnipresence comes omniscience. either way, both are attributes of an omnipotent God.

and, if he does not know what path you will chose, then he is not a god, just an observer with limited power. im sure the catholic church, or any denomination by that matter, would not like to hear that about their alpha and omega.

Quote from apples

Quote from AnathemicOne

Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?

Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."

i just dont think you understand the concept of free will. and its not just the christian god either, its any religion that empowers those traits on a deity.

Quote from LinkX

So then A) There is an awesome, amazing plan that nobody is following or We have no free will?

This is part of the reason the Christian faith annoys me...

Edit:

Those sunglasses emoticons are supposed to be B ) not actual emoticons...

Quote from LinkX

Quote from AnathemicOne

Quote from LinkX

Quote from AnathemicOne

Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?

Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."

If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.

This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.

That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.

I don't see the reasoning behind this, if anyone is to follow a plan they would have to know that the plan consists of AKA telling them what to do. What I see in Catholicism/Christianity is that they know God has a grand plan (as told by Jesus) said plan will be beneficial to all (IE getting into Heaven). Anything beyond this is all speculation and teachings from Jesus.

And nice to see you again Link

So...they know it's a plan..and that it's a really swell, awesome plan...but they don't know what the plan is...and thus cannot follow said plan...

So, considering nobody knows what the plan is, and thus cannot follow the plan, the plan is completely and utterly useless? That sounds...very religious...

And thanks, nice to see you too Anathemic.

(Now people realize why I didn't apply for modship again, I like to disappear! Lol.)

Quote from WishedHeHadBeta

this will be the 5th time? this has been explained to ana, but he is apparently very thick headed and continues to argue. ive explained it so many ways im done. the simple way you put it is nice. and i dont see how he could possibly argue back. but im sure he will... <_<

Quote from LinkX

Quote from AnathemicOne

Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?

Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."

If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.

This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.

That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.

Quote from apples

put it this way

so God is: omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent.

if he truly is omnipotent and omnipresent, then there is no such thing as free will. everything is decided by fate, because he knows what will happen and has the power to change it on a whim or for some greater purpose.

Quote from WishedHeHadBeta

i know how free will works. you clearly dont lol.

what apples said + were talking about GOD, not another human being with free will. your creator, not another creation. completely different.

Quote from WishedHeHadBeta

by stating what the christans ive met beleive im disproving anything you said about the generalization of their belief. i never said i knew what they generally believed like you so ignorantly did, i was just pointing out how your wrong.

i was using that as a metaphor, not literal. lol... god created us and gave us free will, and by doing stuff to us he is essentially taking that away briefly each time he "does something" or if "everything happens for a reason" hes constantly doing stuff therefor there is NO free will. in the metaphor i used lets say the police is god, and the police originally gave you the right to walk on the street, then they said, nahh not anymore. there taking away your rights they gave you. just like if god impeded on your free will by effecting your life.

if you think "moving arms and legs" is your entire free will then i feel very sorry for you, lmao. free will is having the right to choose your own path in life without god directing it. if ultimately god has a "plan" then all your doing is making the choices god wanted you to make therefor its not free will. free will is choosing any path wither its to be a murderer or father or bum or anything. you are your own master, no one controls you.