You realize that the PvE-ers aren't bitching and moaning about BoE items... because they get it. They understand how the game works, how PvE is integral to the entire game. I would highly recommend stepping off of the high horse and expecting a huge rework of the game just because you PvP.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
Of-course their not. Because the one ore two percentage differences in gear which fuel what PVP is all about matter zero to a PVE'er. A pve'er couldn't care less if he or she has 18% life leech as opposed to 16% life leech. They don't care about balancing decisions between choosing a faster 4 frame attack weapon with lower damage as opposed to a 5 frame attack one with higher damage. They don't agonize about whether to socket with lethal strike runes or simply go pure attack speed and try to get that lethal strike from other pieces.
But these are the very issues which hack-and-slash pvp is all about. So of-course PVE'ers aren't going to give a crap about bind on equip. Sooner or later theyll get that rare bow or rare axe and that will be the end of it. But for a pvp'er there is no such thing as "the end of it". We are constantly trying to improve our character by trading back and forth until we find optimal gear combination.
And you butcher 90% of the fun part of what makes diablo 2 pvp so lovable and keeps people at it 10 years later when you try to introduce permanent bind on equips. It just can't work if pvp'ers are too scared to try on items because it will bind to you permanently. And if the only available items to trade for are so tiny b/c only unworn gear is available. And equally importantly because for a PVE'er, their in-game wealth grows every time they do what they love. IE pve. While a pvp'er cannot grow richer by pvp'ing. And tourneys or competitive pvp is simply not possible in a hack-and-slash game where gear dictates 90% of the fights outcome. PVP'ers grow richer with smart incremental trades over the career of their characters. When I quit the game for personal obligations, my paladin's full pvp set could have sold for $5000 on ebay if i cared about selling it. (Instead I gave various pieces of my items to pvp friends who id been playing with for years).
What I don't get is why PVE'ers are against suggestions which DO NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY. But are advocating suggestions which affect PVP'ers HUGELY. It is YOU pve'ers who are being incredibly selfish, and not the other way round
PVE and PVP are both vital aspects of the diablo community. The suggestions i've been giving try to find a middle-ground which addresses the concerns of both communities. Instead of this elitist pve attitude where they think they are the only ones that matter.
I'm sorry Michal, but I really can't see your point. You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?
Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades. I remember in D2 I once spent 4 full hours in a game chatting with a guy until I'd convinced him to trade me the Cruel Mythical Sword of Lapmprey he had on his druid in exchange for a very rare ethereal 6 socketed warspike I had on my pally. I'd explained to him the mechanics of how it would give his druid a 4 frame attack. Then he'd haggle back asking if its so good why do I wan't to trade it. And i'd explain to him how pallys can hit 4 frames easily, and the lamprey is a better weapon for us, but the 6 socket warspike allows druids to socket it with mutiple attack speed gems and hit 4 frames, and how because it was etheral it had higher damage than other warspikes, and was very rare. ETC ETC ETC
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
Hi, pretty slow forum section, so I thought i might throw out some cool pictures
Consensus on this board seems to be that the last character should be a middle-eastern type since the desert sands and middle-eastern motif is a pretty big part of Diablo lore and architecture in places like Act 2.
The last class could be a lightly armored, highly mobile fighter, who is adept in ranged weapons, dual wielding, and perhaps some summoning techniques but with a desert theme for one of his skill trees. Summoning sand storms, creating sunken sand pits under enemies etc (similar to the way one of the druid skill trees was elemental based with magma boulders, mini volcanoes, arctic blast etc)
Pretty sure blizzard is already well into its way in development of the 5th class, but oh well - its all in good fun
We do not know how the items are going to be like and how the drop rate is going to be for the items yet. I think many of the items are going to be worked towards the end when they start to balance everything together.
They may decide that some of the quests may reward some high end items just like D1 had. If they decide to are likely going to be random side quests and they should be difficult to complete.
What I don't understand is why accommodations cannot be made.
Example: Why do they want to introduce Bind on Equip gear? Because over time, Rare items become more and more abundant, and their value goes down.
Fair point.
So if you don't want to have hard quests or high gold prices which allow players to unbind gear, why not have the binding of the gear on a simple delayed timer?
When an item designated for soul binding is found or crafted, it will bind to the whichever character has it after 1 year and a half. (18 months)
What this means is that for 18 months, that item can get traded around freely, even if it has been tried on by someone. But after the 18 months is up, it binds to the account of whoever was wearing it, or had it in their bags
This would allow some decent flexibility for the PVP community so that trade is not butchered, whilst solving the problem of rare items building up.
Because every day rare items would be getting soul bound. (ie items which were found/crafted 18 months ago). This means rare items are continually and constantly being removed from the market, allowing the value of rare items for the PVE crowd to remain high.
It will have the EXACT same effects in terms of curbing build up of rares, than if items were binding immediately upon equip.
Imagine a girl walking down the street, dropping flowers on the ground. Under the current instant bind on equip, it just means that there is another guy walking directly behind her who is immediately cleaning up the flowers.
But if you give a 18 month delay, it just means that the guy who is cleaning up the flowers, will wait until the girl has walked a hundred feet befre before he starts picking up the flowers she is dropping
Under both systems, the build up of rare items will be controlled effectively.
But under the delayed system, it will also allow much greater trading and sampling of items than would otherwise be possible.
A compromise that would give the PVP community breathing room, while also addressing Blizzards main concerns regarding build up of rare items in Diablo 2
^^nobody's talking about bind-on-pick-up, it's bind-on-equip.
and to everybody that is against BoE because it will (supposedly) ruin PvP: blizzard representatives have already stated that PvM (in particular, co-op PvM) will be the main focus of D3. you can either accept that, or you can continue to bitch about it.
See thats the problem with guys like you. Early on in the thread, you came in pretending to give partial and fair comments
But in reality, your just another snotty nosed PVE'er who doesn't care if such a crucial aspect of what Diablo PVP is about is ruined for a such a huge fanbase and the Diablo PVP community
What boggles the mind is why you must be so selfish.
If blizzard implemented a system where you could complete as series of hard quests, or farm a certain amount of Gold in order to unbind a particular item, why are you against it?
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
The whole "only items over level 85" is rediculous. PVP doesn't begin until you are max level anyway. Unless you aer some kind of twink pvp'er who wants to fight only at lvl 50, for 99% of the PVP community, they play through the campagin, enjoy the game, level up their character, and then when they hit level 99, they start the amazingly enjoyable process of wheeling an dealing in trades for better items.
A VITAL part of D2 PVP is TRYING the friggen item first. Thats the whole enjoyment of PVP. Trial and Error. You trade your sword/axe whatever to some guy who has a nice looking kris knife because you heard on the forum it is better with your build. You try out the kris knife, and if you don't like it, you trade it away to some other dude who wants it. And so the endless cycle of improvement continues.
In a hack-and-slash game the whole point is tweaking and matching gear to your hearts content. That DOESN'T WORK if you don't want to try on the weapon/gear because as soon as you do it is forever bound to you and you cannot trade it, and all the value it holds is out the window
PVE is BOOORING to me. The first or second playthough is enjoyable because the content is fresh and new. The lore, the quests, the experience of it all. PVE after a few months is BORING to me.
But thats MY opinion. I'm not going to say Blizzard should make Diablo 3 an open world of PVP so that I can go gank PVE'ers any time I want. Because that would ruin a lot of what PVE'ers find fun. IE minding their own buisness and taking down NPC bosses and finding loot. More power to ya.
But PVE'ers like you don't have the same respect. You selfishly want something as pivotal as end-game trading to be butchered by this BOE crap just because it serves your own selfish PVE needs
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations. That cannot happen when items which players have used can no longer be traded, or because you are too scared to try on an item you found b/c it will forever be bound to you
Ok, I tried to argue my points rationally, including long detailed posts, but It seems the the same old crap
PVE'ers coming and shooting down ideas an stubbornly refusing to see the obvious for their own selfish PVE reasons.
Quote from "ScyberDragon" »
Exactly. This thread is one person's opinion who doesn't like the change and he is claiming that 99% of the other players agree with him despite the fact that nobody else here (whom all still play D2 to some degree) agrees with him.
BoE is going to be in the game and it is there for a reason. Blizzard is one of the most successful gaming companies in the world and I am sure they are above making such foolish mistakes that Michal thinks they are. There is no need to go back and forth about the same subject. We understand that BoE will cause players to have less gear to trade with but that is the reason they are adding it. If you want to stop the market from flooding with high-end gear, you have to have a way to control it. Trades will still exist, people will still by their top gear, this just makes it a little harder.
Do not delude yourself
Glance around this thread about the topic which was started a few months ago on Battlnet's forum
At least half of the people are against it. And almots always the same half. The pvp'ers don't like it, and the PVE'ers come in start advocating for the idea.
Since you guys don't like when I make long posts, or seem to even read them, let me cut the bullsh*t and say it right now
Bind on Equip is to reward PVE'ers. I hate PVE. As to most long time PVP'ers. Thats why they PVP. Clicking mindless monsters over and over, no matter how clever the AI is not fun ever, especially when you are doing the run for the 1000 time. Bind on Equip is a PVE'ers wetdream, and it is a PVP'ers nightmare. Plain and simple.
Just look at the idea I gave one or two pages ago about, making expensive gold or very hard quests to do in order to "unbind" an item . A perfectly legitimate compromise which satisfys hardcore pvp'ers, but also addresses the legitamate question of item over-inflation
But snarky pve'ers like Maka don't consider it, because the end of the day, whilst a pvp'er like myself is willing to make consolations like the suggestion I made, PVE'ers selfishly advocate it because it serves their play style
I repeat - The heart of PVP in a hack and slash, is improving your gear incrementally by slowing building up from current items. All the items inyour bag and that you are wearing, which you worked so hard for - they all have value, and help you trade for better items in the future. Bind on equip BUTCHERS this. It forces PVP'ers to become PVEers. Plain and simple.
My apartment: $100,000
My target house: 250,000
If that is your situation, you wan't to be able to sell your apartment, get the money, and then use it towards buying your new house
But bind on equip means your apartment is worthless and you will have to get the whole $250,000 from scratch. And when you enter your new house "equip new items", the whole 250,000 goes down the drain, and you can never use it to buy something again
Since people are getting rude in this thread, ill put it simply.
Permanent bind on equip is a horrible idea, and everything that is diablo, and a hamster-wheel solution which will suck the joy out of all things PVP, and is catered to PVE'ers like the ones in this thread
Suggestion # 2 - Take a moment to read this idea. I think it is a good compromiseAnother idea is this, which may help eliminate the market flooding of items.
Firstly, do not make armor off-pieces soul bound.
Things like belts/rings/boots should not soud bind, since people trade them more often.
Only have Weapons, Chest Armors, Shields, helmets, boots as bind on equip.
However with one crucial caviat;
You can visit an blacksmith/cultist in one of the diablo towns, who will use his talents/magic to unbind the item from you so it can be traded.
However, there is a restriction. Every time you have an armor un-bound from you, it costs more and more gold to unbind other items in the future. (Blizz mentioned they are working hard on gold-sinks that will ensure gold is valuable in diablo 3)
What does this mean? It means that there will never be flooding of high end items on the market, because at some stage, it will become too expensive for players to un-bind a weapon/armor-piece again. (Maybe the first 20 unbinds are fairly cheap, and then prices start rising exponentially) The effort required to harvest all of that gold end up being not worth trading your run-off the mill rare weapons
However, this will leave some flexibility for the PVP crowd. Why? Because for many pvp'ers, some of the very high end items they desire or own, have no price tag.
If for example, I really wanted someone's cruel mythical sword of quicknes, and he really wanted my axe, we could both decide to work on getting that gold over the next two or three weeks to pay for that unbind.
That is a short-term forseeable goal which one can handle. Its not as depressing as saying "My current item is useless and has no trade value, and I have to PVE for months and months, hoping to get enough rare drops so that I can trade with someone who hasn't equipped that really nice item I want"
The items you or I have retain their intrinsic value. It just becomes a matter of working hard for a few weeks perhaps until you have enough gold to pay the blacksmith NPC to unbind it for you.
Such a system would work perfectly. It would have the best of both worlds. Items would not flood the market, because the as the game matures, the Gold-costs of unbinding items on veteran players will be so expensive, that it will not be worth the hastle of unbinding them. You will save your gold for unbinds which really matter to you. Your not gonna bother spending the two or three weeks to unbind that sorceress shaku hat. So it remains off the market.
And at the same time it allows PVP'ers not to feel as if every time they equip a rare item, it is now lost forever. In the back of their minds, they know that if they ever need to upgrade it, they can put in the time and effort needed to unbind the item, and regain its value for as a bargaining chip for a bigger package.
Sorry for the long posts. I do tend to get carried away
Here are two ideas I thought about.
Suggestion # 1
- Make endlessely upward % modifiers for various rare items
Take for example the best Bow for Amazons early on. The Eagle Horn bow. A rare bow drop
Now imagine that not all eagle-horns are created equal. They are all good, but they come with fluctuating random modifiers which have no upper limit.
One eagle-horn may have 100% enhanced damage. (Highest chance to drop)
Another eagle-horn may have 101% enhanced damage (slightly lower chance to drop)
and so on and so forth
Diablo had a similar system, but it was capped. So nearly all the PVP sorceres for example were running around with perfect Shakus (head gear)
Instead of capping it, blizzard should make it endless, such that you can have a180% enhanced damage eagle-horn which has a far lower chance to drop than other eagle-horns which are already very rare.
The greater the damage% extra boost, (or life leech or whatever), the more vanishly harder the item is to drop.
Where theoretically you can have a an eaglehorn with 500% enhanced damage, but chances of it dropping are 1 in a hundred million
What am I getting at?
Think about it. Early on in the game, basic eagle horns will be the cream of the crop for amazons. Its what people will want.
One year into the game, eagle-horns will have began to flood the market as more and more people accumulate them, but all that now happens is that the higher % eaglehorns become the more desirable item for Amazons. (Example a 120% enhanced damage eagle horn)
And one year later, statistically speaking, more eaglehorns would be circulating in the game, but no problem. Because now its the 150% eagle horn which is rarer still which becomes the desirable item.
The same concept can be given to magical items for wizards or witchdoctors. Where the rare items have magical damage boosts % wise.
Or rare armors which have fluctuating % boosts to their base armor stats.
What this means is that you will never have a situation where half the sources are wearing perfect % Shakus (head gear which every sorc has).
Do you see what I'm getting at? You would never ever reach a situation where everyone is carrying the same exact items, because modifers with no upper limit, and the laws of probability, will dictate that even if the game ran for 100 years, there would still be great variety in the desirability of items between different players.
And so whether or not items flood the market becomes irrelevant, because there is such great variety in the desirability of those items themselves
Seriously, is a novel necessary for every point you make? I can't bother, every time something is said, I'd need to go through a thousand words and answer around 20 things just to get around 1 point properly.
This isn't WoW, but D3 isn't D2.
Thats it.
Tells you i'm passionate about Diablo, and have a lot of experience in a vital community within diablo. Might help to consider what I'm saying rather than shooting it down. I'm telling you flat out right now. Bind on equip WILL NOT WORK. It will butcher everything that is fun about PVP in a hack-and-slash trade based game like Diablo. It just won't work
If you feel we are bickering endlessley, how about we take a shot brainstorming other ways to avoid items flooding the market (a legitimate concern), but accomplish that without having to resort to soul binding, whether it be bind on equip or bind on pick up
Who's to say that they won't include some system to reward PvP players a bit? Maybe even PvP gears itself would be acquired through PvP and etc.
We have no information around that, though.
This is not world of warcraft. Its a hack and slash. Blizz even said in their blizzcon panel that they want to design the game so that you can play it with only the mouse if you wanted.
In WoW, pvp gear is a means to an end. Ie, you farm honor and arena points so that you can buy the same pvp gear which everyone else has. Literally the exact same gear. Once you have the gear, then you can be competitive in PVP and let your skills do the talking. WoW combat is extremely complicated where a persons skill with the class matters a lot.
Its a completely different animal from Diablo PVP. When playing my rogue in WoW, I can have pvp gear 3 tiers lowers than yours, and if you are not skilled, I will kill you. On my rogue for example, I have 6-8 addons running every time I pvp.
Addon's all over my screen telling me the cooldowns of enemy skills and spells.
Add-ons to give me warnings when someone is trying to cast a spell so I can interupt it.
Big glowing addons to give large visual displays on my rogues energy and combo points so I can manage them.
Add-ons to count down my own spell cool downs so I can them effectively.
You simply cannot compare WoW's pvp system to a hack-and-slash game like diablo. Soul-bound items work in WoW because skills matter immensely. In diablo, what separates the good players from the bad is not fancy addon's, and a good connection, and fast reactions, and super detailed knowledge of enemy spells and skills. What separates the good from the not-so-good in Diablo is luck, passion for your class, love for PVP, and above all, the ever enjoyable wheeling and dealing in trade channels to get better items.
Yet despite all of WoW's pvp intricacies, I found Diablo 2's PVP experience to be 10x more satisfaying and enjoyable to than WoW's. The same enjoyment felt by PvP'ers in Diablo I still speak to today who are still playing the game daily today - TEN YEARS after diablo was released. I would be hard-pressed to even imagine a Diablo PVE'er who has been consistently playing the game for its PVE for the last 10 years. PVP matters hugely.
One of the most enjoyable experience I ever had was back in the day when we held a Palapk Paladin/Druid tournament. The fee to enter was $5 sent via paypal.
About 3000 Paladins and druids entered the tourney, all paying their $5
Then over the next week, all the duels were held.
I came out #41. The winner of the tourney won the entire cash pool. $15,000
It was unbelievable fun. Every time someone beat you in tha tourney, we would spend hours discussing what stat-distribution he had used. Asking him/her how come their etheral robo spike or whatever was destroying you when your items were clearly better.
And then in your head you start thinking about what kind of changes to make. How your going to trade your current sword for an etheral robo spike you saw being advertised. But that one was lower % damage than the one belonging to the guy who beat you. "Its okay" you think to yourself, I'll place damage gems in my helmet instead of life leech". That should help offset things
That is the nature of the beast when it comes to PVP in a hack-and-slash game like diablo. Gear is everything. And the feeling of constantly growing more powerful is a huge part of it. It point blank doesn't work if every new item you want, your going to have to farm increasingly longer periods of time in order go gather the trade-bait needed to get it.
And when you do get that item finally and equip it , and it binds to you - now next time when you come across another dueler who gives you ideas on how to improve, that previous item is now of no value to you. You can't use it in a trade to off-set some of the cost of the new item you desire. You are back to square one.
I also think saying that only 1% of the people will continue to pvp is a bit drastic.
10 years later yes. Ofocurse early the community will struggle on, but it will be painful and won't gather much momentum.
Quote from "kira862" »
Basically what I believe. While the PvP community may not be farming monsters for gear the PvE community still is and the PvP gear that they get the trade off to some PvP guy which keeps the economy going.
No one seems to understand. How can the PVP community buy stuff from the PVE community who will "keep the economy going" when in a bind on equip universe, the PVE'ers are going to be the strongest and riches because they enjoy PVE'ing. What is the PVP'er going to offer the PVE'r in order to purchase items? His current nice gear is soul bound to his character because he "equipped it". Thats what bind on equip means.
PVP'ers are going to either, give up their desire to upgrade items. Or spend the majority of their time PVE'ing. Something PVP'ers absolutely loath.
I think Blizzard is being smart leaving BoP out of Diablo but BoE on a select amount of items will just help control the economy and not have it ran crazy like it is in D2.
Yes, if the select "BOE" on items is on items that are lower end, to restrict things like twinking.
If for example the best consensus pally sword is bind on equip. That its game over. Pally PVP not going to work.
In-fact, i guarantee you will see pally pvp tournaments and game saying "no xx" item allowed. Simply because people don't want that item in their game.
It just simply cannot work if you make any of the high end gear bind on equip. It won't work.
PvP will still exist. People are not going to stop PvPing just because they have to PvE to get more gear. It is not like every PvP player out there only has the one set of gear and can only trade their gear to get new gear. People have other high-end gear, people still do runs for gear. The PvP community does not have a set amount of gear that they all keep trading amongst one another. that is the whole point. The gear keeps coming in and there is nothing in place to stop this.
Thats what you think, but the only pvp'ers will be people new to the game, or those stubbornly holding in, or those PVP'ers with a natural pre-disposition to be tortured with hours of grinding PVE
If there are 50,000 pvp'ers left in diablo 2 today (10 years after release), there would be maybe 500 left if the system was bind on equip
People will simply quit the game.
Its would be HORRIBLE for a pvp'ers in hack an slash
Imagine you were an art collector who was not a billionaire. Your desire was to have the best piece of art, just the way a diablo pvp'er desires ot have the best gear.
Which method would you enjoy more.
1) You buy a $500 art painting. But the moment you put it in your house, it loses all its value. Now when you see a $1000 art piece you like, you need to work at your job and pay $1000 to get it. So you do that and buy it. Again as soon as you put it in your house it looses all its cash value.
Then one day you see a $5000 art piece. Now to get it this, you will need to work at your job again for many hours to get it.
And so it continues onward and onward. There will quickly come a point where you will say "Bah, I don't care about art. It is too hard to get better art. Things are too expensive. I can't work to pay for a $200,000 art
2) Now imagine another scenario. The current diablo scenario.
You work and make $500. When you wan't to buy a new art piece that costs $1000, you simply sell your old one, and now you only need to pay $1000. And when you want to get the a $2000 art pieces, you simply sell your old one, and now you only need to pay $1000
Hack and Slash PVP has no intrinsic value in the duel. Its not hard to duel. What keeps people playing, is the highly enjoyable progression in gear which builds up.
It cannot work with any type of bind on equip.
And the HEART of that system, is using your old items as a platform on which to launch you into higher and better items. IT CANNOT WORK if the moment you equip an item, it is now completely useles and has no value in future trades.
It just doesn't work. PVP'ers (the majority of diablo players today, for those PVE'ers who selfishly think PVP is irrelevant because it doesn't affect them).
PVP'ers would quickly get bored. There reaches a point where the pain and boredom involved in trying farm enough value items in order to make a trade or upgrade, will simply be not worth it. PVP'ers will get bored and quit once that point reaches.
But under diablo's open market system, that point never reaches. It never reaches because all of the gear and items you have worn and accumulated in your Diablo playing days is underneath you like a mountain which lets you go endlessley higher and higher. And it is that painless climb which makes PVP fun.
My Item = 5
My desired item = 7
PVP'ers want to work for only 2, so that they can 5+2 to get 7
And when their items accumulated over a year an a half = 200.
And their desired upgrade = 230
They only want to work for 30 so that they can 200+30 to get that 230 item
They don't want after two years, have to work for the full 230 all over again, just because their curren't 200 worth of valuable gear is completely useless in transactions, because it is bind on equip.
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Of-course their not. Because the one ore two percentage differences in gear which fuel what PVP is all about matter zero to a PVE'er. A pve'er couldn't care less if he or she has 18% life leech as opposed to 16% life leech. They don't care about balancing decisions between choosing a faster 4 frame attack weapon with lower damage as opposed to a 5 frame attack one with higher damage. They don't agonize about whether to socket with lethal strike runes or simply go pure attack speed and try to get that lethal strike from other pieces.
But these are the very issues which hack-and-slash pvp is all about. So of-course PVE'ers aren't going to give a crap about bind on equip. Sooner or later theyll get that rare bow or rare axe and that will be the end of it. But for a pvp'er there is no such thing as "the end of it". We are constantly trying to improve our character by trading back and forth until we find optimal gear combination.
And you butcher 90% of the fun part of what makes diablo 2 pvp so lovable and keeps people at it 10 years later when you try to introduce permanent bind on equips. It just can't work if pvp'ers are too scared to try on items because it will bind to you permanently. And if the only available items to trade for are so tiny b/c only unworn gear is available. And equally importantly because for a PVE'er, their in-game wealth grows every time they do what they love. IE pve. While a pvp'er cannot grow richer by pvp'ing. And tourneys or competitive pvp is simply not possible in a hack-and-slash game where gear dictates 90% of the fights outcome. PVP'ers grow richer with smart incremental trades over the career of their characters. When I quit the game for personal obligations, my paladin's full pvp set could have sold for $5000 on ebay if i cared about selling it. (Instead I gave various pieces of my items to pvp friends who id been playing with for years).
What I don't get is why PVE'ers are against suggestions which DO NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY. But are advocating suggestions which affect PVP'ers HUGELY. It is YOU pve'ers who are being incredibly selfish, and not the other way round
PVE and PVP are both vital aspects of the diablo community. The suggestions i've been giving try to find a middle-ground which addresses the concerns of both communities. Instead of this elitist pve attitude where they think they are the only ones that matter.
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A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades. I remember in D2 I once spent 4 full hours in a game chatting with a guy until I'd convinced him to trade me the Cruel Mythical Sword of Lapmprey he had on his druid in exchange for a very rare ethereal 6 socketed warspike I had on my pally. I'd explained to him the mechanics of how it would give his druid a 4 frame attack. Then he'd haggle back asking if its so good why do I wan't to trade it. And i'd explain to him how pallys can hit 4 frames easily, and the lamprey is a better weapon for us, but the 6 socket warspike allows druids to socket it with mutiple attack speed gems and hit 4 frames, and how because it was etheral it had higher damage than other warspikes, and was very rare. ETC ETC ETC
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
1
Consensus on this board seems to be that the last character should be a middle-eastern type since the desert sands and middle-eastern motif is a pretty big part of Diablo lore and architecture in places like Act 2.
The last class could be a lightly armored, highly mobile fighter, who is adept in ranged weapons, dual wielding, and perhaps some summoning techniques but with a desert theme for one of his skill trees. Summoning sand storms, creating sunken sand pits under enemies etc (similar to the way one of the druid skill trees was elemental based with magma boulders, mini volcanoes, arctic blast etc)
Pretty sure blizzard is already well into its way in development of the 5th class, but oh well - its all in good fun
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http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/gallery.php?artist=raneman
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What I don't understand is why accommodations cannot be made.
Example: Why do they want to introduce Bind on Equip gear? Because over time, Rare items become more and more abundant, and their value goes down.
Fair point.
So if you don't want to have hard quests or high gold prices which allow players to unbind gear, why not have the binding of the gear on a simple delayed timer?
When an item designated for soul binding is found or crafted, it will bind to the whichever character has it after 1 year and a half. (18 months)
What this means is that for 18 months, that item can get traded around freely, even if it has been tried on by someone. But after the 18 months is up, it binds to the account of whoever was wearing it, or had it in their bags
This would allow some decent flexibility for the PVP community so that trade is not butchered, whilst solving the problem of rare items building up.
Because every day rare items would be getting soul bound. (ie items which were found/crafted 18 months ago). This means rare items are continually and constantly being removed from the market, allowing the value of rare items for the PVE crowd to remain high.
It will have the EXACT same effects in terms of curbing build up of rares, than if items were binding immediately upon equip.
Imagine a girl walking down the street, dropping flowers on the ground. Under the current instant bind on equip, it just means that there is another guy walking directly behind her who is immediately cleaning up the flowers.
But if you give a 18 month delay, it just means that the guy who is cleaning up the flowers, will wait until the girl has walked a hundred feet befre before he starts picking up the flowers she is dropping
Under both systems, the build up of rare items will be controlled effectively.
But under the delayed system, it will also allow much greater trading and sampling of items than would otherwise be possible.
A compromise that would give the PVP community breathing room, while also addressing Blizzards main concerns regarding build up of rare items in Diablo 2
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See thats the problem with guys like you. Early on in the thread, you came in pretending to give partial and fair comments
But in reality, your just another snotty nosed PVE'er who doesn't care if such a crucial aspect of what Diablo PVP is about is ruined for a such a huge fanbase and the Diablo PVP community
What boggles the mind is why you must be so selfish.
If blizzard implemented a system where you could complete as series of hard quests, or farm a certain amount of Gold in order to unbind a particular item, why are you against it?
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
The whole "only items over level 85" is rediculous. PVP doesn't begin until you are max level anyway. Unless you aer some kind of twink pvp'er who wants to fight only at lvl 50, for 99% of the PVP community, they play through the campagin, enjoy the game, level up their character, and then when they hit level 99, they start the amazingly enjoyable process of wheeling an dealing in trades for better items.
A VITAL part of D2 PVP is TRYING the friggen item first. Thats the whole enjoyment of PVP. Trial and Error. You trade your sword/axe whatever to some guy who has a nice looking kris knife because you heard on the forum it is better with your build. You try out the kris knife, and if you don't like it, you trade it away to some other dude who wants it. And so the endless cycle of improvement continues.
In a hack-and-slash game the whole point is tweaking and matching gear to your hearts content. That DOESN'T WORK if you don't want to try on the weapon/gear because as soon as you do it is forever bound to you and you cannot trade it, and all the value it holds is out the window
PVE is BOOORING to me. The first or second playthough is enjoyable because the content is fresh and new. The lore, the quests, the experience of it all. PVE after a few months is BORING to me.
But thats MY opinion. I'm not going to say Blizzard should make Diablo 3 an open world of PVP so that I can go gank PVE'ers any time I want. Because that would ruin a lot of what PVE'ers find fun. IE minding their own buisness and taking down NPC bosses and finding loot. More power to ya.
But PVE'ers like you don't have the same respect. You selfishly want something as pivotal as end-game trading to be butchered by this BOE crap just because it serves your own selfish PVE needs
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations. That cannot happen when items which players have used can no longer be traded, or because you are too scared to try on an item you found b/c it will forever be bound to you
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PVE'ers coming and shooting down ideas an stubbornly refusing to see the obvious for their own selfish PVE reasons.
Do not delude yourself
Glance around this thread about the topic which was started a few months ago on Battlnet's forum
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=19382695902&sid=3000&pageNo=1
At least half of the people are against it. And almots always the same half. The pvp'ers don't like it, and the PVE'ers come in start advocating for the idea.
Since you guys don't like when I make long posts, or seem to even read them, let me cut the bullsh*t and say it right now
Bind on Equip is to reward PVE'ers. I hate PVE. As to most long time PVP'ers. Thats why they PVP. Clicking mindless monsters over and over, no matter how clever the AI is not fun ever, especially when you are doing the run for the 1000 time. Bind on Equip is a PVE'ers wetdream, and it is a PVP'ers nightmare. Plain and simple.
Just look at the idea I gave one or two pages ago about, making expensive gold or very hard quests to do in order to "unbind" an item . A perfectly legitimate compromise which satisfys hardcore pvp'ers, but also addresses the legitamate question of item over-inflation
But snarky pve'ers like Maka don't consider it, because the end of the day, whilst a pvp'er like myself is willing to make consolations like the suggestion I made, PVE'ers selfishly advocate it because it serves their play style
I repeat - The heart of PVP in a hack and slash, is improving your gear incrementally by slowing building up from current items. All the items inyour bag and that you are wearing, which you worked so hard for - they all have value, and help you trade for better items in the future. Bind on equip BUTCHERS this. It forces PVP'ers to become PVEers. Plain and simple.
My apartment: $100,000
My target house: 250,000
If that is your situation, you wan't to be able to sell your apartment, get the money, and then use it towards buying your new house
But bind on equip means your apartment is worthless and you will have to get the whole $250,000 from scratch. And when you enter your new house "equip new items", the whole 250,000 goes down the drain, and you can never use it to buy something again
Since people are getting rude in this thread, ill put it simply.
Permanent bind on equip is a horrible idea, and everything that is diablo, and a hamster-wheel solution which will suck the joy out of all things PVP, and is catered to PVE'ers like the ones in this thread
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Firstly, do not make armor off-pieces soul bound.
Things like belts/rings/boots should not soud bind, since people trade them more often.
Only have Weapons, Chest Armors, Shields, helmets, boots as bind on equip.
However with one crucial caviat;
You can visit an blacksmith/cultist in one of the diablo towns, who will use his talents/magic to unbind the item from you so it can be traded.
However, there is a restriction. Every time you have an armor un-bound from you, it costs more and more gold to unbind other items in the future. (Blizz mentioned they are working hard on gold-sinks that will ensure gold is valuable in diablo 3)
What does this mean? It means that there will never be flooding of high end items on the market, because at some stage, it will become too expensive for players to un-bind a weapon/armor-piece again. (Maybe the first 20 unbinds are fairly cheap, and then prices start rising exponentially) The effort required to harvest all of that gold end up being not worth trading your run-off the mill rare weapons
However, this will leave some flexibility for the PVP crowd. Why? Because for many pvp'ers, some of the very high end items they desire or own, have no price tag.
If for example, I really wanted someone's cruel mythical sword of quicknes, and he really wanted my axe, we could both decide to work on getting that gold over the next two or three weeks to pay for that unbind.
That is a short-term forseeable goal which one can handle. Its not as depressing as saying "My current item is useless and has no trade value, and I have to PVE for months and months, hoping to get enough rare drops so that I can trade with someone who hasn't equipped that really nice item I want"
The items you or I have retain their intrinsic value. It just becomes a matter of working hard for a few weeks perhaps until you have enough gold to pay the blacksmith NPC to unbind it for you.
Such a system would work perfectly. It would have the best of both worlds. Items would not flood the market, because the as the game matures, the Gold-costs of unbinding items on veteran players will be so expensive, that it will not be worth the hastle of unbinding them. You will save your gold for unbinds which really matter to you. Your not gonna bother spending the two or three weeks to unbind that sorceress shaku hat. So it remains off the market.
And at the same time it allows PVP'ers not to feel as if every time they equip a rare item, it is now lost forever. In the back of their minds, they know that if they ever need to upgrade it, they can put in the time and effort needed to unbind the item, and regain its value for as a bargaining chip for a bigger package.
Sorry for the long posts. I do tend to get carried away
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Suggestion # 1
- Make endlessely upward % modifiers for various rare items
Take for example the best Bow for Amazons early on. The Eagle Horn bow. A rare bow drop
Now imagine that not all eagle-horns are created equal. They are all good, but they come with fluctuating random modifiers which have no upper limit.
One eagle-horn may have 100% enhanced damage. (Highest chance to drop)
Another eagle-horn may have 101% enhanced damage (slightly lower chance to drop)
and so on and so forth
Diablo had a similar system, but it was capped. So nearly all the PVP sorceres for example were running around with perfect Shakus (head gear)
Instead of capping it, blizzard should make it endless, such that you can have a180% enhanced damage eagle-horn which has a far lower chance to drop than other eagle-horns which are already very rare.
The greater the damage% extra boost, (or life leech or whatever), the more vanishly harder the item is to drop.
Where theoretically you can have a an eaglehorn with 500% enhanced damage, but chances of it dropping are 1 in a hundred million
What am I getting at?
Think about it. Early on in the game, basic eagle horns will be the cream of the crop for amazons. Its what people will want.
One year into the game, eagle-horns will have began to flood the market as more and more people accumulate them, but all that now happens is that the higher % eaglehorns become the more desirable item for Amazons. (Example a 120% enhanced damage eagle horn)
And one year later, statistically speaking, more eaglehorns would be circulating in the game, but no problem. Because now its the 150% eagle horn which is rarer still which becomes the desirable item.
The same concept can be given to magical items for wizards or witchdoctors. Where the rare items have magical damage boosts % wise.
Or rare armors which have fluctuating % boosts to their base armor stats.
What this means is that you will never have a situation where half the sources are wearing perfect % Shakus (head gear which every sorc has).
Do you see what I'm getting at? You would never ever reach a situation where everyone is carrying the same exact items, because modifers with no upper limit, and the laws of probability, will dictate that even if the game ran for 100 years, there would still be great variety in the desirability of items between different players.
And so whether or not items flood the market becomes irrelevant, because there is such great variety in the desirability of those items themselves
A quick idea, but something to build upon
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Thats even worse lol ^^
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Tells you i'm passionate about Diablo, and have a lot of experience in a vital community within diablo. Might help to consider what I'm saying rather than shooting it down. I'm telling you flat out right now. Bind on equip WILL NOT WORK. It will butcher everything that is fun about PVP in a hack-and-slash trade based game like Diablo. It just won't work
If you feel we are bickering endlessley, how about we take a shot brainstorming other ways to avoid items flooding the market (a legitimate concern), but accomplish that without having to resort to soul binding, whether it be bind on equip or bind on pick up
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This is not world of warcraft. Its a hack and slash. Blizz even said in their blizzcon panel that they want to design the game so that you can play it with only the mouse if you wanted.
In WoW, pvp gear is a means to an end. Ie, you farm honor and arena points so that you can buy the same pvp gear which everyone else has. Literally the exact same gear. Once you have the gear, then you can be competitive in PVP and let your skills do the talking. WoW combat is extremely complicated where a persons skill with the class matters a lot.
Its a completely different animal from Diablo PVP. When playing my rogue in WoW, I can have pvp gear 3 tiers lowers than yours, and if you are not skilled, I will kill you. On my rogue for example, I have 6-8 addons running every time I pvp.
Addon's all over my screen telling me the cooldowns of enemy skills and spells.
Add-ons to give me warnings when someone is trying to cast a spell so I can interupt it.
Big glowing addons to give large visual displays on my rogues energy and combo points so I can manage them.
Add-ons to count down my own spell cool downs so I can them effectively.
You simply cannot compare WoW's pvp system to a hack-and-slash game like diablo. Soul-bound items work in WoW because skills matter immensely. In diablo, what separates the good players from the bad is not fancy addon's, and a good connection, and fast reactions, and super detailed knowledge of enemy spells and skills. What separates the good from the not-so-good in Diablo is luck, passion for your class, love for PVP, and above all, the ever enjoyable wheeling and dealing in trade channels to get better items.
Yet despite all of WoW's pvp intricacies, I found Diablo 2's PVP experience to be 10x more satisfaying and enjoyable to than WoW's. The same enjoyment felt by PvP'ers in Diablo I still speak to today who are still playing the game daily today - TEN YEARS after diablo was released. I would be hard-pressed to even imagine a Diablo PVE'er who has been consistently playing the game for its PVE for the last 10 years. PVP matters hugely.
One of the most enjoyable experience I ever had was back in the day when we held a Palapk Paladin/Druid tournament. The fee to enter was $5 sent via paypal.
About 3000 Paladins and druids entered the tourney, all paying their $5
Then over the next week, all the duels were held.
I came out #41. The winner of the tourney won the entire cash pool. $15,000
It was unbelievable fun. Every time someone beat you in tha tourney, we would spend hours discussing what stat-distribution he had used. Asking him/her how come their etheral robo spike or whatever was destroying you when your items were clearly better.
And then in your head you start thinking about what kind of changes to make. How your going to trade your current sword for an etheral robo spike you saw being advertised. But that one was lower % damage than the one belonging to the guy who beat you. "Its okay" you think to yourself, I'll place damage gems in my helmet instead of life leech". That should help offset things
That is the nature of the beast when it comes to PVP in a hack-and-slash game like diablo. Gear is everything. And the feeling of constantly growing more powerful is a huge part of it. It point blank doesn't work if every new item you want, your going to have to farm increasingly longer periods of time in order go gather the trade-bait needed to get it.
And when you do get that item finally and equip it , and it binds to you - now next time when you come across another dueler who gives you ideas on how to improve, that previous item is now of no value to you. You can't use it in a trade to off-set some of the cost of the new item you desire. You are back to square one.
I shudder at the thought
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10 years later yes. Ofocurse early the community will struggle on, but it will be painful and won't gather much momentum.
No one seems to understand. How can the PVP community buy stuff from the PVE community who will "keep the economy going" when in a bind on equip universe, the PVE'ers are going to be the strongest and riches because they enjoy PVE'ing. What is the PVP'er going to offer the PVE'r in order to purchase items? His current nice gear is soul bound to his character because he "equipped it". Thats what bind on equip means.
PVP'ers are going to either, give up their desire to upgrade items. Or spend the majority of their time PVE'ing. Something PVP'ers absolutely loath.
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Yes, if the select "BOE" on items is on items that are lower end, to restrict things like twinking.
If for example the best consensus pally sword is bind on equip. That its game over. Pally PVP not going to work.
In-fact, i guarantee you will see pally pvp tournaments and game saying "no xx" item allowed. Simply because people don't want that item in their game.
It just simply cannot work if you make any of the high end gear bind on equip. It won't work.
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Thats what you think, but the only pvp'ers will be people new to the game, or those stubbornly holding in, or those PVP'ers with a natural pre-disposition to be tortured with hours of grinding PVE
If there are 50,000 pvp'ers left in diablo 2 today (10 years after release), there would be maybe 500 left if the system was bind on equip
People will simply quit the game.
Its would be HORRIBLE for a pvp'ers in hack an slash
Imagine you were an art collector who was not a billionaire. Your desire was to have the best piece of art, just the way a diablo pvp'er desires ot have the best gear.
Which method would you enjoy more.
1) You buy a $500 art painting. But the moment you put it in your house, it loses all its value. Now when you see a $1000 art piece you like, you need to work at your job and pay $1000 to get it. So you do that and buy it. Again as soon as you put it in your house it looses all its cash value.
Then one day you see a $5000 art piece. Now to get it this, you will need to work at your job again for many hours to get it.
And so it continues onward and onward. There will quickly come a point where you will say "Bah, I don't care about art. It is too hard to get better art. Things are too expensive. I can't work to pay for a $200,000 art
2) Now imagine another scenario. The current diablo scenario.
You work and make $500. When you wan't to buy a new art piece that costs $1000, you simply sell your old one, and now you only need to pay $1000. And when you want to get the a $2000 art pieces, you simply sell your old one, and now you only need to pay $1000
Hack and Slash PVP has no intrinsic value in the duel. Its not hard to duel. What keeps people playing, is the highly enjoyable progression in gear which builds up.
It cannot work with any type of bind on equip.
And the HEART of that system, is using your old items as a platform on which to launch you into higher and better items. IT CANNOT WORK if the moment you equip an item, it is now completely useles and has no value in future trades.
It just doesn't work. PVP'ers (the majority of diablo players today, for those PVE'ers who selfishly think PVP is irrelevant because it doesn't affect them).
PVP'ers would quickly get bored. There reaches a point where the pain and boredom involved in trying farm enough value items in order to make a trade or upgrade, will simply be not worth it. PVP'ers will get bored and quit once that point reaches.
But under diablo's open market system, that point never reaches. It never reaches because all of the gear and items you have worn and accumulated in your Diablo playing days is underneath you like a mountain which lets you go endlessley higher and higher. And it is that painless climb which makes PVP fun.
My Item = 5
My desired item = 7
PVP'ers want to work for only 2, so that they can 5+2 to get 7
And when their items accumulated over a year an a half = 200.
And their desired upgrade = 230
They only want to work for 30 so that they can 200+30 to get that 230 item
They don't want after two years, have to work for the full 230 all over again, just because their curren't 200 worth of valuable gear is completely useless in transactions, because it is bind on equip.
How do people not see this?