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    posted a message on why split mf will be good
    Quote from ercxcobracmnder
    Demon hunter/ witch doctor = crowd control. Fear. Traps.
    Dps/tank barb/sorc
    Yeah of course. Some classes are more capable of being a support than others.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Magic Find Was per Player, is it still?
    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir
    This change negatively effects EVERYONES MF, unless... haha you actually have a leecher in your game, than you benefit from their high MF.

    The lower everyone else's MF is, the higher their killing speed should be. If the leecher was capable of solo'ing the content at a respectable pace and receiving the full benefit of his MF then he is either grouping up with people weaker than him (because they have lower MF gear but aren't clearing the content faster) or because he's in an area that's too low for his level.

    Having a split of players with a very high MF stack and the others with combat stat gear should be roughly equivalent to all players having a moderate MF stack. It might not be, but for the sake of the argument let's say it is.

    If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. If you don't need your back scratched, then wtf are you still doing here?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on gf/mf question
    Quote from OneTwoSC
    I'm just running the Ashes in the Royal Crypt. No monsters at all, just killing the little destructibles gives tons of gold. So I could probably do that in Inferno too...
    I thought about this once and decided it's not really a problem until we actually hit inferno to see how it works. I'm actually curious with how the ashes and barrels and stuff will work in Inferno because you've already hit 60 by then and won't have any use for the exp bonus they give. Oh and if your method of farming gold turns out to be exploitable, then they'll fix that too I hope.

    Quote from OneTwoSC
    But yeah, definitely a good idea from Blizz. The funny thing is I bet a lot of people won't know (ie general public playing during release).
    Yeah I can imagine little Billy stacking as much MF as possible in his solo runs, then he joins his first pub game and realizes that everything is dying a lot faster, so he pretty much creams his pants at the thought of getting items even faster than possible.
    Then the sad day comes when Billy is told that MF is split amongst the group.

    *Billy ragequit the game*

    No but seriously, Blizzard will probably add this feature to the list of texts that appear while you're loading the game up. You don't want to dishearten the new guys too much ;)
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on why split mf will be good
    Quote from ercxcobracmnder

    I'am sorry lol,touch phones suck for typing and their is like delay typing on this forum. Plenty of typos
    Your touch phone must be pretty different to mine :D

    Quote from MaDDoG1221

    Wait.. 300 / 4 = 75. So if its a 4 man group they'd be getting 75% each?
    Yep. Keep in mind that they'll be carrying your dead weight because you'll be a useless contributor to the fights with 300 MF gear equipped.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on gf/mf question
    You're only capable of soloing the Royal Crypts efficiently with that much GF because it's the beta. You're way out-leveled for that content.

    At the release, if you stack heaps of MF/GF and join a public game, sure you'll be dividing it amongst strangers that probably won't be grateful for it, but your killing and survival capacity will be greatly hindered, so you'll need to stick to the back of the group and be a useless added weight, but at least then you're not leeching and you're still helping the team out in your own way.

    Simiarly, you'll have another player that will be stacking as much DPS as possible, and while he isn't contributing to the MF/GF pot of the group, he'll be killing faster. That is his contribution.

    All in all, this was a great move by Blizzard. It now creates the scenario where no one is leeching, no one in the team has to be paranoid of others leeching, and everyone gets to play the way they want to play.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Magic Find Was per Player, is it still?
    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    Vote kick is all they needed to solve the leech problem.
    No, it isn't. With the way the system would've been, so many people would be tempted into leeching that it would be just impossible to get a public game rolling with a respectable team, which would then lead to a decline in the coop experience.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on why split mf will be good
    Besides your exceptional skills at spitting all over the English language, you make a good point.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Magic Find Was per Player, is it still?
    Quote from Pure Physics
    Say a solo player kills 500 monsters which inhabit an area and each monster has a 2% chance to drop some wearable loot. On average said player should find 10 items every time he clears said area (these numbers are all used for ease of mathematics as I have no idea what actual drop rates and monster populations will be). So: one player, 500 monsters, 2% drop rate => 10 items

    Now imagine a group of 4 players kills the same 500 monsters, how many items does each player find? Are four times as many items drop so each player gets 10? Does each drop the same number of items so each player gets 2.5? Somewhere in between?
    Each player will get 10 items. This works pretty much in the same way as it did in D2, minus the fact that every player now has their own loot. The item quantity dropped from a boss increased proportionally to the number of players that were present in the party because each player should still be getting as much as they did if they were running solo.


    Oh and I'm loving this change, and watching as some people complain about it, because we all know they were going to be leeching their hearts out with the old system. Tough luck boys.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why Any Skill at Any Time is NOT bad!
    Really? Because what I took from that was exactly what I've been telling you all along. Take a closer look at this one paragraph, and hopefully you'll realize that even Blizzard has been thinking about addressing the issue we all have - yet an issue that you can't see.

    The one question mark for a lot of people, and maybe even us, is what stops someone from seeing a pack, backing out (or dying) and swapping out to be better equipped to handle it? We agree that shouldn't be the best way to play, but know it's something we can solve pretty easily, even if it's just making the swapping cooldown longer in later difficulties.


    This problem directly extends to bosses as well, and it's what I've been trying to tell you this whole time. If you still don't agree with me, then you don't agree with Blizzard.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why Any Skill at Any Time is NOT bad!
    Quote from Burzghash
    Sure, let's add putting words in people's mouths to the list of logical inconsistencies. We're already on such a roll after all.
    I'm just trying to get your story straight ;)

    Quote from Burzghash
    Quote from Puttah
    If they don't place skill locks in some form or another then I'll be joining the 'skill swapping to suit the situation' bandwagon.

    Has no affect on me or how I'll play in the slightest. Bearing that in mind, I hope that what you end up doing is actually fun for you. Because I know I'll be playing in the way I find the most fun.
    What you or I do personally does not represent what the community does. But I can damn well bet that if a player works their heart and soul into gathering the best gear (which we can reasonably assume will be many) then they'll be squeezing out every last vessel of strength out of their build choices as well.

    And being stronger actually has its own set of enjoyment, else I wouldn't waste my time MFing.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on EU Beta Wave, Diablo 3 Weekly Maintenance, Blue Posts, Sword of Justice Cover Art, Fan Art
    I'm just wondering, but does anyone know when the downtimes will be happening during the week? Such as a day and time?

    I'm not sure how the downtime with wow and sc2 are so I can't really go on anything here.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
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    posted a message on Why Any Skill at Any Time is NOT bad!
    So in other words the system should stay the way it is because it's going to stay the way it is...?

    If you believe that I've nitpicked through your post, please care to direct me to the point that you would like answered, because I'm too tired to read through the wall of text again.

    I think the game is fine, but it can use improvements here and there. If they don't place skill locks in some form or another then I'll be joining the 'skill swapping to suit the situation' bandwagon.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why Any Skill at Any Time is NOT bad!
    Quote from Burzghash
    http://us.battle.net...anges-2_18_2012
    Our high-level goal with this system has always been to give players a great degree of power to customize their characters. We believe we accomplished that early on by abolishing skill trees and moving toward an open-ended system where skills, rune variants, and passives are chosen at-will by the player in a flexible customization system.


    Blizzard has changed their mind about many things. They've even done complete 180's on even the most basic foundations of how they think the game should be played.
    Were you here to see when they abolished the cauldron of jordan and salvage cube because they decided that keeping the action going was a bad decision, so now they effectively force players to go back to town to "take a break"?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why Any Skill at Any Time is NOT bad!
    Burzgash, you yourself are also making the same crude assumptions, it's just that they are opposing mine. How do you know what's to be expected in inferno?

    Can't you imagine a scenario where another build will be more effective at tackling some boss than the build you were using to get through the dungeon? Don't you think players will be swapping their build each time if they know the encounter is going to be a difficult one, and every extra ounce of strength counts?

    Champions and rares may be randomized, yes, and you'll most likely have to tackle them without the possibility of swapping to the more effective build, but this is a choice that you've made based on certain criteria.
    A certain dungeon may mainly consist of many weak, but fast creatures, so your build would likely be based around large AOE type spells. But then you run into the odd encounter of a rare pack, so what? You've cleared the main portion of the dungeon faster than you could've otherwise, so this loss in time is hardly a worry.
    The next dungeon may be different however. It could be comprised of mostly fewer monsters but with more HP. This doesn't mean however that when you run into that one enemy that spits out faster little guys, that they'll bring you to your knees.

    And then to the bosses. Some may be more about their large army of summons, or in the SK's case, about the boss himself. In Inferno, the few extra abilities may change your style of tackling the boss, but it doesn't complete neglect the fact that there will be a superior build with the encounter. There must be a superior build, because each boss is different in their own way. They have their own set of characteristics that defines the boss.

    The SK doesn't move very much, but he can teleport to his chosen victim. With this info alone, you can already tell that snares will be pretty useless against him, while mobility type spells such as leap attack on the barb or vault on the demon hunter will be much more useful.
    You can't tell me that you think because the bosses in inferno will have a few more abilities, they'll be completely well-rounded in every respect - as will all the other bosses.


    Quote from Burzghash
    Quote from Puttah
    It could look like that, if you didn't realize that skill swapping definitely gives a noticeable bonus.

    Have you even played the beta? Because I have, many times in fact, and many other beta testers can agree with me that you're in the wrong. The only beta testers that wouldn't agree that skill swapping is more effective are either just ignorant, or haven't actually taken a moment to think about it or try it out for themselves.

    Have YOU even played the Beta? Because you seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that it is a tutorial. Of course you can get significant gains from playing with the system on the first 1/3rd of the easiest act on the easiest difficulty. You only have access to 4 out of 6 skill slots. The SK is using a fraction of his abilities he'll be using on Inferno. The fight is purposely easy to ease new players into the game.
    You dodged my question because you haven't. Thanks for making that clear, because it does explain a lot.

    So what if it's a tutorial? You can still gather ideas about what the game will be like from the beginning acts. It's just like any other ARPG, there will always be a better way to do something.

    If you've played D2 and remember it by any chance, could you honestly tell me that you wouldn't find it a little weird if a necro was running around using bone spirit while clearing the dungeons? A single target nuke is hardly a suitable spell to use in that situation, because bone spear could get the job done much more efficiently. But against pretty much every boss, the bone spirit spell was definitely effective.

    If you think it's flawed reasoning to make an assumption that if it happened in D2, it could very well happen in D3 as well, then there's nothing else I can say or do to reason with you.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why Any Skill at Any Time is NOT bad!
    Quote from Burzghash

    Quote from Puttah

    We're limited to 6 skills at a time, so in our scenario it's a restricted choice between cleave or bash for fury generators. Keep in mind that your other skills will offer such variety as single target nukes, AOE nukes, defensive spells etc. All of which will cost fury. Clearly if cleave can get the job done most efficiently while you're racking up those fury points, you won't be needing to whip out your bash when you approach a rare encounter, you'll instead be unleashing the rest of your arsenal upon them.

    Then your argument is essentially that you can't find a good reason to have bash on your bar. Not that you have any problem with skill swapping. Pretty easy fix - make bash worth taking. But it has nothing to do with the presence or absence of free skill swapping.
    What? I never said I can't find a good reason to have bash - just that cleave is a better choice for the dungeons, and bash is better for the bosses, and since most of the content in the game consists of large numbers of minions, cleave will be the obvious choice to have active most of the time, with the occasional skill swap to bash before a large boss fight of course.

    Quote from Burzghash
    I think that having a problem 95% already solved and the other 5% you not being able to present a factual argument on is a pretty good state to be in.
    Fact - Bash has +20% more damage per swing over cleave
    Fact - We are given ample time before encountering the SK to swap skills
    Fact - If min-maxers pull their hair out trying to gain even the tiniest bit of strength, you can bet they'll be swapping skills, even at the cost of ruining their preferred style of a permanent build

    And I haven't presented a factual argument?

    Quote from Burzghash
    The solution for bosses? Make them require a well balanced build. Make bosses require aoe damage, single target damage, escape spells, movement spells, and crowd control. Ta-da. Your balanced build is now supported 100% of the time.
    So rather than having a quick and simple fix of restricting the skill swapping by offering a bonus in another form, such as the MF/GF boost, you feel it is a better idea that Blizzard goes back to the drawing board to reiterate all the bosses mechanics?


    Quote from Burzghash
    If you're already running around with a well-balanced build, you'll have a build capable of beating the bosses and special instances. Problem solved. Why do you need to know that other players aren't doing something you don't find fun, likely in other games you will never be witness to?
    Well rounded means exactly that - You're effectiveness at tackling each different situation is standard. Specialized builds will be much more effective at dealing with the scenario they were built for, and players will obviously be changing their builds so that they're specialized for each encounter.

    Quote from Burzghash
    Quote from Puttah
    He'll be using more abilities against us? Doesn't that imply we need more defensive abilities? It doesn't negate the argument that bash > cleave however. And it could quite possibly mean that you'll even be swapping out your large AOE nukes out and that'll probably be a wasted skill as well in the later difficulties.

    Again, you don't have a problem with skill swapping. You have a problem with the skill bash. If you want to argue that bash should be made more competitive, then do so. But it has nothing to do with the argument above.
    Bash is already competitive. But here's the catch, only against bosses.
    Please think more clearly about what I'm saying...

    And I do have a problem with skill swapping. Why would I be supporting the cause to change the system if I didn't have a problem with it? It's not about the skill bash vs. cleave, that is just an example. If you want me to give you more examples you just need to ask. I can even offer you entire builds if you need.

    Quote from Burzghash
    Again, you assume that you will be gimped by a significant amount. You don't have any actual proof that that will be the case. Especially when we have developer commentary saying they intend for balanced, viable specs to perform within 1%-5% of each other. So, who should we listen to? The paranoid fearmongering of people who have no hands-on experience with the game or any portion of its development, or the developers themselves?

    Blizzard has already said that they're fine with some specs offering up to a 5% advantage. There likely will be some out there that are. But that's not enough of an advantage as far as they're concerned to cause people to constantly skill-swap to optimize. The reality of the matter is you'll be able to get through the content with your balanced build. And the difference between that and an optimized build will be so negligible, you aren't even going to be aware of the difference. If you still somehow manage to convince yourself that skill-swapping is providing you some tremendous untapped advantage, and you feel compelled to skill-swap for that 5%, then more power to you. Nobody's going to stop you except yourself. Because nobody can control your own neuroses' but you.

    Quote from Puttah
    But there is no "One build to rule them all". There will be more viable builds for each situation, and you will learn what these are as you journey through each difficulty.

    Of course there is no 'one build to rule them all'. But there are as many viable builds as Blizzard can possibly squeeze into the game. This is accomplished by balancing individual skills against one another. If single target damage abilities A, B, C, D, E are all balanced against one another (by varying their damage/resource/cooldowns/mechanics), then it doesn't matter which flavor of damage-dealing ability you prefer in your build. They're all balanced against one another. It doesn't matter which type of escape ability you put into your build. They're all balanced against one another. It doesn't matter what CC, or AOE nuke, or battlefield control ability you choose to throw into your build. Because they're all balanced against one another.

    "But but but, I can just put a bunch of damage on my bar and then I'll obviously be more optimal!" - You had to sacrifice something else to load up on damage. Have you sacrificed a vital escape skill you need for the fight? Or crowd control? Or movement? If I were Blizzard, I'd make sure that you can't load up on one specific purpose without neglecting some other vital component of your build. And since you have no proof that they have omitted this aspect, you should wait until the game is actually out before claiming they are as if it were fact.

    In addition, you're apparently extremely worried about this 5% advantage. How do you expect this advantage to manifest? In all likelihood, you're only talking about damage-dealing abilities, because how do you gauge someone who escapes 5% better? Who has movement 5% better? Who has crowd control 5% better? These things aren't going to win the fight for you, all they will do is keep you alive longer. Damage is what wins the fight in the end, so I can only presume that damage is what you're so focused on. To that end, who CARES that a more optimal build will put out 5% more damage? It will be completely imperceptible to you and your teammates. And Diablo sure isn't going to care.

    On top of that, even if you load up your entire bar with damage boosting abilities, you're still limited by several universal factors; your casting speed, and your resource pool. It doesn't matter how specialized you are into one particular goal if you can't put out any more than your limits will allow. You can't cast more than a single spell at a time. You can't constantly bomb your most resource-intensive abilities.

    Ok it's clear what the problem is. I'll explain this just once, so pay attention.

    You have a critical misunderstanding of what Blizzard meant by the best builds being at most 5% more effective than other viable builds. If builds were locked in place, then yes, this would be the case, but they're not - and this is the deal breaker.
    With permanent builds, most viable builds will be roughly equal in overall effectiveness. This considers that a viable build which specializes in, say, AOE damage will clear out the dungeons faster, but slower at the boss encounter, while on the opposite end of the spectrum, a specialized build in single target damage will be slower through the dungeon, but quicker with the bosses (and champions, rares, etc.). Over the entire run however, they should equalize. Their strengths and weaknesses differ, but overall they're equal. The only difference with a well-rounded build is that it can handle each situation moderately, thus also being equal to the rest when you add it all up.

    Now, with skill swapping, this is no longer the case. If you can grab a specialized build to take out the dungeon, then switch to a different build that specializes in taking out the boss, this is a significantly more effective "build" than choosing a well-rounded one and not switching.

    I hope this clears it up for you, because it's really not that complicated.

    Quote from Burzghash
    The fact that you use the word 'forced' in the statement above says volumes about what you would like to do to other people's playstyles. Regardless, it still wouldn't force people to do it. If they wanted to play with constant skill-swapping, they would. This supposed advantage that is offered by skill swapping would still be there for those who do skill swap, and those who don't would get a bonus that has absolutely nothing to do with your combat effectiveness. That argument is ridiculous. It's nothing more than cognitive disonnance; you want to feel like a unique and special snowflake, and think you should be given special rewards for playing in the 'right' way. The fact that you don't want those rewards to even provide a combat advantage similar to what you claim skill-swappers are getting tells me that your argument that people would be advantaged by skill swapping isn't even the focus of what you want or a real concern in your mind. You're just using it as weak justification to try to get what you want.
    It could look like that, if you didn't realize that skill swapping definitely gives a noticeable bonus.

    Have you even played the beta? Because I have, many times in fact, and many other beta testers can agree with me that you're in the wrong. The only beta testers that wouldn't agree that skill swapping is more effective are either just ignorant, or haven't actually taken a moment to think about it or try it out for themselves.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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