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    posted a message on I have a fear.
    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
    This is all operating under the assumption that Trag'Oul is correct. As I doubt he is omniscient, he would be capable of error, and so could be wrong about Heaven's intentions.

    I guess it's possible that Trag'Oul is wrong, but if that's the case, why even have these characters in the first place? It would have been just as easy to have the creation of Sanctuary based on totally separate circumstances (i.e not having anything to do with the treachery of certain angels and demons) where the motivations from Hell's perspective would be to spread chaos among Sanctuary's inhabitants and Heaven wanting to simply defend these seemingly helpless mortals due to their good nature. Instead, we have Sanctuary whose existence is a mockery to both Heaven and Hell, and a third party (Trag'Oul and company) whose sole purpose is to defend Sanctuary from anyone who wishes to control it for their own purposes. I've got to think that the Sin War is still the main objective of Heaven and Hell. It would be silly to think that these two realms have been fighting SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME only to just completely forget about it and move on to Sanctuary. Sanctuary is obviously a means to an end no matter what way you look at it.

    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
    Take this scenario. Humanity continues to evolve, and Heaven continues to take a passive role in affars, yet never leaving Sanctuary. Eventually, Sanctuary will reach a point where it will be able to contend with Heaven and Hell on even grounds (sort of like the third realm to acquire Weapons of Mass Destruction). At that point, Sanctuary can either take an aggressive stance against both other realms, or join with Heaven against Hell. Ask yourself, what is more likely? If Hell has continuously assailed Sanctuary, while Heaven has not, would it not make sense to ally with Heaven if they extend their hand?

    This could surely be possible, but again, I'm not sure that the Rathmians would allow this alliance to be made without a fight. The bottom line is that the Rathmians need both Heaven and Hell to exist to carry out their own cause, so surely they wouldn't stand idle and allow Heaven - or Humans who allied with Heaven - to destroy Hell. And assuming your theory is right for a moment, what would happen after that? I don't recall exactly which Sin War book this quote was in or its exact wording, but I remember Trag'Oul saying to Mendeln that if good has no evil to counter it, then good will eventually turn on itself. If Trag'Oul and the Rathmians allowed this alliance between Heaven and Sanctuary to happen or embraced it, they would be going directly against the teachings of Trag'Oul and The Balance.

    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
    As far as we know, Heaven is only interested in destroying Hell. There's never any solid text stating that Order must be established in Sanctuary, that is merely an extrapolation made by us fans from speeches of Rathmians and similar.

    You could be right except for the fact that Imperius and Mephisto agreed to allow Sanctuary to exist. The only reason this could be possible is if both sides thought that Sanctuary was the missing link to winning the War, which means they must both be trying to gain control over it. If that's not the case, then why even allow Sanctuary to exist or care that Hell might take it over?

    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
    Now, if such a scenario was to take place, it would be a possibility that Trag'Oul, Rathma et. al would be opposed to an alliance between the realms. In that case, perhaps future heroes will join Heaven in a fight against Trag'Oul, and afterwards move on to fight Hell.

    This is pretty much in sync with what a I wrote a couple of paragraphs above. What's interesting here is that if this did happen, what angle would Blizzard tell the story from? Do you necessarily think that they would make Trag'Oul and the Rathmians the antagonists? The beauty of this story is that their is more than one possible answer to that question.

    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
    Of course, I don't think we'll ever see a victory for one side over the other in the Diablo universe.

    I think this relates to the worry I have that Blizzard won't take this story to its full potential. I agree with you that we probably won't see an ultimate ending to the story other than The Balance being maintained, which means that either Hell is always going to be the antagonist and beaten back, or they'll grow some balls and start bringing some angels into the fray. I think we all know which route they will most likely take.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Φ Diablo Books Chronological Order
    Quote from "Calamity" »


    Also before I start ranting I should say thar I kind of enjoyed the books and will probably read the others except the last sin war book. Its like watching a really bad cheesy tv show like Buffy can sometimes be enjoyable. :D

    I certainly don't agree with you here. I thought the politics within The Sin War Trilogy were fantasticly complex, and to point that out I am going to give you the list of the different factions and their interactionsn with one another that web them together.

    You have the Three Prime Evils and their relationships with their children and followers, you have Inarius' relationship with both the Prime Evils and Angiris Council, you have Tyrael's relationship with the Angiris Council as well as with the Naphalem which are both seperate entities, and you have the Angiris Council's political relationship directly with the Prime Evils themselves. Not to mention, you have the Naphalem caught in the middle of this who could potentially be a power to be reckoned with, and you have the Mage Clans who up to this point aren't even part of the Naphalem. Oh and don't let me forget Trag' Oul, Rathma, and Mendeln who eventually become yet another faction all by themselves who are tyring simutaneously to keep all the others in check.

    How many stories in general leave you a feeling of really not knowing who the bad guy is? You have Inarius betraying Heaven, and Lilith whose betrayal of Hell is essentially just as severe; both the Prime Evils and Angiris Council being equally pissed off about this. The Angiris Council, who supposedly represents total goodness, openely makes dealings with the Prime Evils essentially out of respect. Even the Naphalem could potentially become Sanctuary's worst enemy - as seen by Uldyssian's inability to control his powers - that you can't even rule them out as being the potential villian somewhere down the line. In my opinion, The Sin War Trilogy cleary deviates from the cookie-cutter fantasy stories that we've heard so many times.

    Quote from "Calamity" »


    Thats the thing that dissapoints me the most ruins the books for me. All the parts with the super powerful mythical beings like Inarius and Lucion, where i expect something really cool to happen, plays out like an episode of a soap opera with some generic fantasy mixed in. The way the author portrays these beings they might as well have been powerful, influential humans, not cold, calculating inhuman overlords determined to enslave the human race to their will.

    I sort of see your point here, but we need to remember that they faced Uldyssian, who was clearly created to show us the potential power of the Naphalem to identify them as one of the power houses of the universe. If the humans are helpless or significantly inferior to the Angels and Demons then you don't have a story. Lets also remember that the Naphalem are essentially half angel and half demon; it's not like they are just a normal mortal species like the wildlife in the Torajian Jungles.

    Quote from "Calamity" »


    Then there is the story of Uldyssian. The unassuming nobody suddenly gains powers and wants to use them for good! Where have I read that before?

    Again, you have to look at Uldyssian as the extreme case. His purpose is to show us the maximum potential of the Naphalem's powers, hince why Heaven and Hell would even want to be involved in the first place.[/quote]
    Quote from "Calamity" »


    The beautiful noblewoman randomly develops a crush on a nobody. What? She had an ulterior motive? Never saw that coming.

    Yeah I suppose it was obvious that she was more than she seemed but I thought her story was pretty interesting. Yes she was a demon and did horrible things to Uldyssian, but the Naphalem were her children. How far would you go to save your children? Her story is no where near cookie-cutter in my opinion.

    Quote from "Calamity" »


    Also, his adventures seem really trivial and stupid. He wins his fights by really wanting to win, and his superpowers just takes care of the rest.

    I suppose I was a little dissapointed in how well a mere "human" could match up against immortals from other planes of existence, but we need to remember that Uldyssian altered the Worldstone in such a way that it essentially became his world. I would assume that if they were in Heaven or Hell that he would not be able to accomplish what he did.

    Quote from "Calamity" »


    Even the subplots suck. A demon in a ancient building in the jungle sends "rage" at him so he goes over ther and wishes it dead. Uh what? Thats it? Can you at least explore the building for a cool artifact?

    The book explains why the spirit was restless with rage when it gives you the backstory between the demon and his angel lover. What this does is it adds yet another issue for both Heaven and Hell to focus on instead of just focusing on one another and thus making the story more complex. This "mix breeding" was esentially another way to put angels and demons on the same level instead of clearly making one of them good and one evil.

    Quote from "Calamity" »


    I also got the books for the cool factor of the Diablo universe, but the author has turned it into generic fantasy. I guess i was just expecting a much darker and complex story.
    The "Ask Lore Questions Here" thread is more enjoyable and informative to read than the books, ant to top it off, better written.

    As someone else said, arguing about writing styles is futile and very subjective. However, I will respectfully disagree with you that the story is generic and not complex. I would have to say that having a 10-year-old child (Cedric) being skinned alive by Malic so it could be worn by a Morlu as a desguise is a pretty dark element to have in any story. I could go on but I think that illustrates my point.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Diablo 3 and the MMO problem
    Quote from "Blackwing" »
    This is very true. After awhile it is spite for your *nemesis* or the interaction with your friends that keeps you on D2. The fact that it will be an MMO should solve this, in my opinion.

    I really hope you are right on this. In my opinion Blizzard has gotten only about 10% of what they could potentially get from the lore that they've created about Sanctuary. The best thing about it is that they keep it very political, and Knaak stresses many times that all good is not good. The Nephelem give the story so much more life because there isn't a clear linear progression to the story like in WoW where the good guys and bad guys are made so obvious. The Diablo universe adresses the dichotomy of good an evil which is probably my favorite philosophical debate. Ok I promise I won't go off-topic anymore lol.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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