Ok, so I think I found the best Yang ever.
Not sure what to reroll.
I don't know about IAS as it only drains my hatred faster and I lose shooting time. Then again, won't IAS synergy well with the Stricken gem? The math on that one might be a bit tricky.
- Rerolling the disc nets ~3.4 % dmg increase.
- IAS to Elite Damage is a decent option.
- IAS to VIT is a decent QoL option.
- IAS to Area Damage. Possibly the highest DPS option for group play mid-high lvl GRs.
- IAS to CDR? Could be a decent option, but I only see it as a good one if I can drop CDR from 2 other item slots and still keep a viable vengeance CD.
Keep in mind one probably shouldn't consider Yang a progression bow, so its uses are mainly T10 speed runs and mid level team GRs.
Atm I'm leaning towards the VIT option for comfort.
Great premise for discussion. I know that the Korean guy who completed GR 61 has confirmed that with no CDR on rings you can do a 3:1 EF:RoV ratio and load up on CC/CD on your rings. That seems to be a best practice for now so I updated the guide to reflect that, but there's still potential for a viable alternative. I am hunting for a decent flavor of time to try going to 57.9% CDR, and using a holy point shot + paragon + one ring affix to reach the 2.14aps breakpoint. Not sure if that will achieve a 2:1 EF:RoV ratio or if that's even worth it but it's worth testing as I already have a perfect ancient holy point shot that meets my requirements.
Something I'm noticing with my testing is that the time between EFs and the EF animation are sped up drastically by attack speed. I'm not sure what the breakpoints are for that, but measuring in terms of EFs per RoV probably isn't as important as measuring total time between RoVs when casting EF with perfect timing. It's also possible that there's a sweet spot where your time between EFs is perfectly aligned with the amount of time for a strafe N2 reduction, possibly somewhere between 1.88 and 2.14. Going to keep playing with this tonight.
Once you start gettting into higher strafe breakpoints I don't think there's any way to avoid having a skill dedicated to hatred replenishment, especially at 2.14. It's possible that getting rid of focused mind is necessary and we just have to "learn 2 play" instead of having infinite smokescreen.
Interesting points. Going for 3:1 cycle with Gogok and no CDR on rings definitely seems like a good idea if you can maintain a steady 3:1. The question is does the raw dmg increase of extra RoV/min by going 2:1 simply outweigh it.
I'd like to bring up some other points about 3:1 vs. 2:1.
From my testing, 2:1 is less mobile than 3:1. Even though the cast animation for RoV is probably equal to EF and therefore should not in theory restrict mobility, I find that casting RoV every 2 EF kind of makes you more stationary than casting RoV every 3 EF. You really have to put some thought behind each RoV for max efficiency and you definitely have to move the cursor further away from your character/movement pattern compared to casting EF when you can simply direct the cursor at the direction of the mob - not having to actually click on top of the mob.
Another point is the penalty of missing an EF shot, thus not getting a CD tick on RoV. I've experienced that if you miss a shot with a 2:1 setup, you simply have to apply a 3rd shot, which is quite ineffective when your whole setup is optimized for 2:1 efficiency. I find a 3:1 setup with a reasonable CDR value of around 50ish to be a lot less taxing upon an EF miss, because even if you miss 1 out of 3 EFs, the RoV usually gets reset anyway without the need of a 4th EF.
I also agree that it looks like 2:1 simply requires additional hatred support.
Punishment is an option, but that greatly reduces survivability and speed. This may, however, reward +12 disc on weapons to a higher degree - which I believe not to be crucial when running Focused Mind (explaination in my original post).
Bat companion - is really an option? Without having tested it, I will assume bat over wolf solves your 2:1 hatred issues, but the DPS loss is huge. However being drained of Hatred is also a DPS loss.
Night Stalker? Night Stalker is already very effective with 1h xbow UE Fire setup, abusing the high speed of the weapon. This would apply for N6 as well. You lose Ambush, Steady Aim or CotW (or awareness) - again, a huge DPS loss but is it really if you can maintain your hatred level and still keep EF:RoV at 2:1?
Blood Vengeance? Potentially even stronger than Night Stalker? Not sure. With BV you would also gain discipline, improving survivability and speed. BV would however be subject to health globe distribution and therefore RNG.
And yes, intuitively (and with no testing claims what so ever) I am starting to think that 2:1, Punishment, Less SS and L2P has the highest clearing potential.
I converted from a standard UE Multishot build to N6 a few days and so far I am really enjoying it. The playstyle is extremely rewarding once you get the hang of it and I also like the fact that the build, and perhaps even some parts of itemization, is not yet fully explored and optimized. Haven't started pushing GRs yet and mostly been doing solo GR 50s in my testing, which is a cakewalk with N6.
So mainly this goes out to players who have completed GRs solo 50+ and/or have done extensive testing with this build. I want to share some thoughts and experiences I've had so far and I hope people will correct me and share their thoughts on these matters. Forgive me if these issues previously have been thoroughly explained in another thread. I have, of course, read Bonerfleximus' N6 guide and to me it looks like some of these issues are still open for discussion.
Some thoughts/questions:
Regarding CDR
Currently I am running CDR on everything except amulet. Sadly I don't have max CDR rolls on every item, which puts me at ~53 % CDR in total running CotW, Iceblink and BotT. I have +2.20 % IAS in paragons in order to reach the assumed 1.88 BP. I currently have RCR on my Calamity, shoulders and paragon, ~26 % RCR in total. Hatred regen 5/s with Templar.
Observations:
- 53 % CDR is definitely not enough to cast 1 RoV per 2 EF. This is, of course, well known.
- 53 % CDR is definitely enough for a consistant and smooth 1 RoV per 3 EFs. Based on a 1 RoV per 3 EFs setup, it would probably be beneficial to drop some CDR off gear in exchange for more CHD/CHC, i.e. on one or even both rings. I am not sure about the the lowest CDR needed for a consistant 1 RoV per 3 EF cast. Would running no CDR on rings + Gokok be an option?
- With Gokok I have ~59-60 % CDR. This is not enough for a consistant 1 RoV per 2 EFs. Sometimes 2 EFs will reset RoV and sometimes 3 EFs are needed. This may support the claim: "I've noticed that when you hit with a generator immediately after a strafe N2 proc, it tends to lower RoV cooldown a bit faster." Since you can't really control your EF hits in regards to the Strafe ticks the result is an inconsistant RoV reset, which messes up the whole rhytm. In my opinion it is extremely important to either consistantly land RoV every 3 or 2 EF shots. From your experience, how much CDR is needed for a consistant 2 EF RoV reset?
So basically you need max CDR on items (minus amulet) + Gokok for consistant 2 EF play. So you're sacrificing CHC/CC on rings and a 3rd gem, most likely Iceblink. Is it a general consensus that the increased damage output of 2 EF play outweights the above mentioned loss?
Hatred management
Even with 26 % RCR (at the 2nd IAS BP 1.88) I seem to run out of hatred when resetting RoV with 2 EFs. It doesn't happen at once but will happen eventually and a few times during the course of a run. It's annoying and potentially dangerous. With 3 EF casts low hatred is a non-issue, in my experience. Would Night Stalker be an option for smoother gameplay, or is it too much of a DPS loss?
Discipline
Currently running 39 Discipline as I don't have any on either of my weapons. I can't say I'm having huge issues casting SS when needed. I very rarely have a full pool of Discipline, which means none of the 45 Discipline from Focused Mind are being wasted by reaching max pool while still in effect. With "active SS use", i.e. you SS to negate affixes, attacks, prophylactic, skipping packs or just for general speed, I don't see your Discipline pool ever being full during a solo GR, which makes me think the max value of your Discipline pool is less important, although it certainly helps. How important is it to have +Discipline on your weapon?
Fighting Jailor/Thunderstorm
So basically you have to outrange and/or preemptively cast SS. For absolute safety you pretty much have to keep the mob off screen, which sometimes can put the mob outside of the EF range with a slower RoV reset and a huge loss of DPS as a result. I've found it extremely helpful to leave 1 or 2 harmless mobs behind which you can hit with EF, keep the jailor/TF at a safe distance while still hitting it with RoV.
According to Wudijo Calamity/Balefire should be BiS for this particular build. However when I look at the leaderboards, most UE fire DHs are running a standard 2h xbow or bow. Is this because getting a good ancient Calamity/Balefire is difficult, or is, in fact, bows/2h xbows stronger de facto than Cala/Balefire? It is also interesting to note that N6 seems to be performing better than UE6 Fire on solo GRs. Might be because N6 currently is "the flavor of the week", or is N6 definitely stronger than UE Fire?
I asked you on stream chat what you would reroll and you answered probably 9 to 12 disc. Though I agree that it kind of makes sense not reroll hatred regen, as 10 RCR would only be slighly better than the already already decent hatred regen, I still wonder if hatred regen to 7 % IAS would be a decent option. If the pure DPS of a weapon now is of greater significance than before, won't 7 % IAS be a larger DPS increase than 3 extra disc? (UE Fire solo).
To my understanding 1h xbows and bows are quite capable and possibly even better than 2h xbows for the UE6 Fire build in solo play. No Cindercoat/Pride's Fall/Punishment means you must use a generator skill in order to manage hatred. And quite often, too. A faster weapon also works well with Ice Blink, which is one of the top gem alternatives (slow effect, 10 crit and enabling Cull of the Weak and Bane of the Trapped). "A slower weapon does more damage per hatred!" True. But does that mean a slower weapon categorically outperforms a faster one? A lot of top DHs seem to favor a faster weapon to the old AB. But enough about that, I am interested in hearing your thoughts on possible reroll options.
My alternatives: (In no particular order. Assume I already gifted it.)
9 Discipline to 12 Discipline
+3 disc. net gain, which does not equal +45 % overall damage, but rather +45 % percentage points to the UE6 MS bonus, which roughy equals a 3-4 % damage increase.
Hatred Regeneration to RCR
I think the general consensus is that RCR>Hatred regen. RCR affects both hatred and discipline. I would also argue that RCR becomes more powerful given a faster weapon (i.e. Calamity), as you will fire more MS per time and thus "save" more hatred through RCR. However I am not sure how crucial it is to have RCR on your main weapon, given that you already have it maxed out on other items and paragons. Keep in mind RCR is multiplicative with itself, meaning a somewhat "diminishing returns" effect is at play. Wouldn't it then make sense to have 10 RCR on your weapon, as it's a 10 % roll. vs the 8 % RCR on other items? Perhaps do 10 RCR on weapon and reroll 8 RCR to something else on another piece?
Hatred Regeneration to Attack Speed
You will shoot MS faster. You will burn hatred faster. You will regenerate hatred faster. Doesn't this simply equate to a net +7 % damage increase? Not sure. Another factor here is Night Stalker. Doesn't 7 % IAS simply make Night Stalker 7 % better? Though I am not sure Night Stalker is even considered among the top passive choices for high GR solo play.
Also faster attack speed will help with Ice Blink.
Hatred Regeneration to Area Damage
I don't understand the math behind Area Damage, but some top DHs say it's quite good and that 25 % Area Damage even outperforms 500 dexterity. The way I see it Area Damage has the potential to be quite effective when hitting large groups of mobs, i.e. mobs that die easily and fast anyway. I guess Area Damage won't be very beneficial at all vs. elites and rift guardians.
8 % Damage to 10 % Damage
A flat 2 % damage increase. Probably not an option as the discipline option (9->12) most likely would outperform it.
Reroll poison damage
The elemental damage roll is not that bad, in my opinion. I am not sure how much a top roll would net in overall damage increase.
These are my current thoughts on possible rerolls. What are your suggestions?
0
Ok, so I think I found the best Yang ever.
Not sure what to reroll.
I don't know about IAS as it only drains my hatred faster and I lose shooting time. Then again, won't IAS synergy well with the Stricken gem? The math on that one might be a bit tricky.
- Rerolling the disc nets ~3.4 % dmg increase.
- IAS to Elite Damage is a decent option.
- IAS to VIT is a decent QoL option.
- IAS to Area Damage. Possibly the highest DPS option for group play mid-high lvl GRs.
- IAS to CDR? Could be a decent option, but I only see it as a good one if I can drop CDR from 2 other item slots and still keep a viable vengeance CD.
Keep in mind one probably shouldn't consider Yang a progression bow, so its uses are mainly T10 speed runs and mid level team GRs.
Atm I'm leaning towards the VIT option for comfort.
Thoughts?
0
Interesting points. Going for 3:1 cycle with Gogok and no CDR on rings definitely seems like a good idea if you can maintain a steady 3:1. The question is does the raw dmg increase of extra RoV/min by going 2:1 simply outweigh it.
I'd like to bring up some other points about 3:1 vs. 2:1.
From my testing, 2:1 is less mobile than 3:1. Even though the cast animation for RoV is probably equal to EF and therefore should not in theory restrict mobility, I find that casting RoV every 2 EF kind of makes you more stationary than casting RoV every 3 EF. You really have to put some thought behind each RoV for max efficiency and you definitely have to move the cursor further away from your character/movement pattern compared to casting EF when you can simply direct the cursor at the direction of the mob - not having to actually click on top of the mob.
Another point is the penalty of missing an EF shot, thus not getting a CD tick on RoV. I've experienced that if you miss a shot with a 2:1 setup, you simply have to apply a 3rd shot, which is quite ineffective when your whole setup is optimized for 2:1 efficiency. I find a 3:1 setup with a reasonable CDR value of around 50ish to be a lot less taxing upon an EF miss, because even if you miss 1 out of 3 EFs, the RoV usually gets reset anyway without the need of a 4th EF.
I also agree that it looks like 2:1 simply requires additional hatred support.
Punishment is an option, but that greatly reduces survivability and speed. This may, however, reward +12 disc on weapons to a higher degree - which I believe not to be crucial when running Focused Mind (explaination in my original post).
Bat companion - is really an option? Without having tested it, I will assume bat over wolf solves your 2:1 hatred issues, but the DPS loss is huge. However being drained of Hatred is also a DPS loss.
Night Stalker? Night Stalker is already very effective with 1h xbow UE Fire setup, abusing the high speed of the weapon. This would apply for N6 as well. You lose Ambush, Steady Aim or CotW (or awareness) - again, a huge DPS loss but is it really if you can maintain your hatred level and still keep EF:RoV at 2:1?
Blood Vengeance? Potentially even stronger than Night Stalker? Not sure. With BV you would also gain discipline, improving survivability and speed. BV would however be subject to health globe distribution and therefore RNG.
And yes, intuitively (and with no testing claims what so ever) I am starting to think that 2:1, Punishment, Less SS and L2P has the highest clearing potential.
1
Mirror thread on Reddit with active discussion:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo3DemonHunters/comments/347n3n/some_thoughtsquestions_regarding_n6/
I converted from a standard UE Multishot build to N6 a few days and so far I am really enjoying it. The playstyle is extremely rewarding once you get the hang of it and I also like the fact that the build, and perhaps even some parts of itemization, is not yet fully explored and optimized. Haven't started pushing GRs yet and mostly been doing solo GR 50s in my testing, which is a cakewalk with N6.
So mainly this goes out to players who have completed GRs solo 50+ and/or have done extensive testing with this build. I want to share some thoughts and experiences I've had so far and I hope people will correct me and share their thoughts on these matters. Forgive me if these issues previously have been thoroughly explained in another thread. I have, of course, read Bonerfleximus' N6 guide and to me it looks like some of these issues are still open for discussion.
Some thoughts/questions:
Regarding CDR
Currently I am running CDR on everything except amulet. Sadly I don't have max CDR rolls on every item, which puts me at ~53 % CDR in total running CotW, Iceblink and BotT. I have +2.20 % IAS in paragons in order to reach the assumed 1.88 BP. I currently have RCR on my Calamity, shoulders and paragon, ~26 % RCR in total. Hatred regen 5/s with Templar.
Observations:
- 53 % CDR is definitely not enough to cast 1 RoV per 2 EF. This is, of course, well known.
- 53 % CDR is definitely enough for a consistant and smooth 1 RoV per 3 EFs. Based on a 1 RoV per 3 EFs setup, it would probably be beneficial to drop some CDR off gear in exchange for more CHD/CHC, i.e. on one or even both rings. I am not sure about the the lowest CDR needed for a consistant 1 RoV per 3 EF cast. Would running no CDR on rings + Gokok be an option?
- With Gokok I have ~59-60 % CDR. This is not enough for a consistant 1 RoV per 2 EFs. Sometimes 2 EFs will reset RoV and sometimes 3 EFs are needed. This may support the claim: "I've noticed that when you hit with a generator immediately after a strafe N2 proc, it tends to lower RoV cooldown a bit faster." Since you can't really control your EF hits in regards to the Strafe ticks the result is an inconsistant RoV reset, which messes up the whole rhytm. In my opinion it is extremely important to either consistantly land RoV every 3 or 2 EF shots. From your experience, how much CDR is needed for a consistant 2 EF RoV reset?
So basically you need max CDR on items (minus amulet) + Gokok for consistant 2 EF play. So you're sacrificing CHC/CC on rings and a 3rd gem, most likely Iceblink. Is it a general consensus that the increased damage output of 2 EF play outweights the above mentioned loss?
Hatred management
Even with 26 % RCR (at the 2nd IAS BP 1.88) I seem to run out of hatred when resetting RoV with 2 EFs. It doesn't happen at once but will happen eventually and a few times during the course of a run. It's annoying and potentially dangerous. With 3 EF casts low hatred is a non-issue, in my experience. Would Night Stalker be an option for smoother gameplay, or is it too much of a DPS loss?
Discipline
Currently running 39 Discipline as I don't have any on either of my weapons. I can't say I'm having huge issues casting SS when needed. I very rarely have a full pool of Discipline, which means none of the 45 Discipline from Focused Mind are being wasted by reaching max pool while still in effect. With "active SS use", i.e. you SS to negate affixes, attacks, prophylactic, skipping packs or just for general speed, I don't see your Discipline pool ever being full during a solo GR, which makes me think the max value of your Discipline pool is less important, although it certainly helps. How important is it to have +Discipline on your weapon?
Fighting Jailor/Thunderstorm
So basically you have to outrange and/or preemptively cast SS. For absolute safety you pretty much have to keep the mob off screen, which sometimes can put the mob outside of the EF range with a slower RoV reset and a huge loss of DPS as a result. I've found it extremely helpful to leave 1 or 2 harmless mobs behind which you can hit with EF, keep the jailor/TF at a safe distance while still hitting it with RoV.
0
Currently running a Calamity UE Fire setup. Cleared GR50 yesterday (second try) with 2-3 mins to spare.
Profile: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Ojen-2302/hero/58695779
According to Wudijo Calamity/Balefire should be BiS for this particular build. However when I look at the leaderboards, most UE fire DHs are running a standard 2h xbow or bow. Is this because getting a good ancient Calamity/Balefire is difficult, or is, in fact, bows/2h xbows stronger de facto than Cala/Balefire? It is also interesting to note that N6 seems to be performing better than UE6 Fire on solo GRs. Might be because N6 currently is "the flavor of the week", or is N6 definitely stronger than UE Fire?
0
.
0
I have question regarding an ancient calamity I found.
Link: http://i.imgur.com/aOaiggT.png
I asked you on stream chat what you would reroll and you answered probably 9 to 12 disc. Though I agree that it kind of makes sense not reroll hatred regen, as 10 RCR would only be slighly better than the already already decent hatred regen, I still wonder if hatred regen to 7 % IAS would be a decent option. If the pure DPS of a weapon now is of greater significance than before, won't 7 % IAS be a larger DPS increase than 3 extra disc? (UE Fire solo).
0
Currently running a standard UE6 Fire build. Haven't really started doing GRs seriously yet, but my highest is GR47 on my first (and only) attempt.
Just found a very decent Calamity.
Link: http://i.imgur.com/aOaiggT.png
To my understanding 1h xbows and bows are quite capable and possibly even better than 2h xbows for the UE6 Fire build in solo play. No Cindercoat/Pride's Fall/Punishment means you must use a generator skill in order to manage hatred. And quite often, too. A faster weapon also works well with Ice Blink, which is one of the top gem alternatives (slow effect, 10 crit and enabling Cull of the Weak and Bane of the Trapped). "A slower weapon does more damage per hatred!" True. But does that mean a slower weapon categorically outperforms a faster one? A lot of top DHs seem to favor a faster weapon to the old AB. But enough about that, I am interested in hearing your thoughts on possible reroll options.
My alternatives: (In no particular order. Assume I already gifted it.)
9 Discipline to 12 Discipline
+3 disc. net gain, which does not equal +45 % overall damage, but rather +45 % percentage points to the UE6 MS bonus, which roughy equals a 3-4 % damage increase.
Hatred Regeneration to RCR
I think the general consensus is that RCR>Hatred regen. RCR affects both hatred and discipline. I would also argue that RCR becomes more powerful given a faster weapon (i.e. Calamity), as you will fire more MS per time and thus "save" more hatred through RCR. However I am not sure how crucial it is to have RCR on your main weapon, given that you already have it maxed out on other items and paragons. Keep in mind RCR is multiplicative with itself, meaning a somewhat "diminishing returns" effect is at play. Wouldn't it then make sense to have 10 RCR on your weapon, as it's a 10 % roll. vs the 8 % RCR on other items? Perhaps do 10 RCR on weapon and reroll 8 RCR to something else on another piece?
Hatred Regeneration to Attack Speed
You will shoot MS faster. You will burn hatred faster. You will regenerate hatred faster. Doesn't this simply equate to a net +7 % damage increase? Not sure. Another factor here is Night Stalker. Doesn't 7 % IAS simply make Night Stalker 7 % better? Though I am not sure Night Stalker is even considered among the top passive choices for high GR solo play.
Also faster attack speed will help with Ice Blink.
Hatred Regeneration to Area Damage
I don't understand the math behind Area Damage, but some top DHs say it's quite good and that 25 % Area Damage even outperforms 500 dexterity. The way I see it Area Damage has the potential to be quite effective when hitting large groups of mobs, i.e. mobs that die easily and fast anyway. I guess Area Damage won't be very beneficial at all vs. elites and rift guardians.
8 % Damage to 10 % Damage
A flat 2 % damage increase. Probably not an option as the discipline option (9->12) most likely would outperform it.
Reroll poison damage
The elemental damage roll is not that bad, in my opinion. I am not sure how much a top roll would net in overall damage increase.
These are my current thoughts on possible rerolls. What are your suggestions?