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    posted a message on Cooperative Play
    Quote from "Timaah" »
    I pose this question to those who say D2 was mainly a coop game.

    If D2 was meant to be a coop game.. then how come to whole game.. all the way through baal on hell diff... was soloable?

    1. Making a game released in 2000 online-only would be financial suicide. There were still lots of people with 56K or no internet at all, and the game had to be playable for them, too.

    2. The changes, especially those of 1.10 (iirc) definitely promoted cooperation, at least in Hell. Giving almost every monster immunity to something meant that the majority of players would have a very hard time 'going it alone' and would obviously encourage cooperative play. Of course it wasn't like soloing was IMPOSSIBLE, but it was definitely structured to encourage cooperation.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Pking is probably out. Bashiok comments.
    Quote from "cbr" »
    Which is a nice story for single play, but please check the message Blizzard gives you when you connect to Bnet, it says something like "online your gameplay experience can change".

    Your reading comprehension needs work. The argument I responded to was that removing PK violates the story of the game. I pointed out that PvP in general doesn't even make any sense with respect to the storyline of the game.

    This reminds me of the "homosexuality is bad because it's not natural" -> "but it does occur in nature" -> "don't argue it's okay just because it occurs in nature" line of argument. All I did was point out how silly it is to argue for griefing by pretending it's a part of the story of the game. That part was not an argument against griefing, just a refutation of his argument.

    If all your goal is to beat hell baal and say you did it on Bnet, you're free to playing password games, basically online single player. As soon as you ask for social interaction be ready to accept both kinds, not only the positive, life isn't full of rainbows and flowers.

    Yawn. Non-sequitur.

    Perhaps it isn't for you? If you don't feel yourself in the argument perhaps it isn't addressed to you.

    It's still irrelevant anyway. *shrugs*

    Actually it's completely within his right to tell you what he thinks is real pvp. Perhaps it isn't the same for you, but that's an entirely different argument.

    Sure he can tell me. But his decision on that subject is meaningless--PvP is defined as players fighting each other, period. There's no point in anyone adding their own invented distinctions to the term.

    What he is saying is he doesn't want rules imposed to him, if there are rules it's only those he agreed to.

    So, you're basically showing me exactly how he's a tremendous hypocrite?

    Let's see, he doesn't want a rule imposed on him, only those he agreed to. And yet he's arguing in favor of a rule that WOULD be imposed on people who didn't want it, and would result in PvP combat they DIDN'T agree to. Interesting.

    Maybe you ought to keep it to yourself the next time you want to 'defend' someone else--what you actually ended up doing was illustrating exactly how full of crap his stance is.

    If he team duels it means he agreed to said rule, nobody imposed it on him.

    So why is he entitled to having no unwanted rules imposed on him, but all the people who don't want to be griefed have to go to the back of the bus? Doesn't that seem a little arrogant to you?

    It's a strawman since you're drawing relations to modern life, Diablo is in a medieval time at best, may I point you to human medieval history. Rules weren't quite the same as they are now.

    Again, I will point out that using the story/setting of the game itself is nothing but poison to your own arguments; in the setting of Diablo 2, there would be practically no PvP whatsoever--the player characters are supposed to be heroes, remember? Their ultimate goal is to save Sanctuary, not rob other would-be heroes of their gold or lives.

    Anti-pk people only have strawman arguments, sad but true.

    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    Distruptive to who? It's not distruptive to me, regardless if I'm the hunter or the hunted.

    Unless you are sitting in a game WAITING for someone to show up to grief you (and if you're dong that, seriously, what's wrong with you?), it is disruptive. Whatever one was doing before the griefer came in and hostiled you becomes...wait for it...disrupted by their unprovoked attack.

    What you claim as fact is actually an opinion. Try again.


    Many is debatable also people dying of lag or other issues cause grief, doesn't mean we need to remove Hardcore.

    1. Don't equivocate "grief". You know exactly what I mean by "griefing".
    2. But Blizzard does try to ameliorate things like lag.

    Just because it never occurred to you means nothing. It doesn't change anything. Some people don't like trading and it doesn't occur to them to go trade in trade games, should we remove trade?

    That part wasn't an argument for/against anything, goofball. :P I was just stating something about myself there.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Pking is probably out. Bashiok comments.
    Quote from "Timaah" »
    Point of the matter, that the Anti-PK camp is just not understanding, is that PKing/PvP was as much a part of diablo as PvE was.

    Except that while informally-structured PvP (since there was no 'official' system in D2) and PvE involved competition and cooperation respectively, griefing (a term I prefer because it's more descriptive and less confusing--technically all PvP involves "PKing" since players die when you duel) involves enjoying the game at the cost of directly interfering with others' enjoyment of the game.

    For those players who like the 'thrill' of being at risk of being griefed, they can leave 'free'/'open' PvP on in games they create. Others shouldn't have to subject themselves to griefing just because a griefer enjoys screwing with them.

    Maybe not eveyone utilized this... but it was there and intricatly part of the game. That was the uniqueness of the Diablo game play. By listening to the complaints of people who didn't utilize it and removing this system you are effectivly removing a HUGE part of the game play experience from this series.

    If it's such a "HUGE" part, why is the solution of allowing people to toggle it in their games such an issue? If it's such a "HUGE" part, few would opt out of it, right?

    Now, this was always one of the best series... there really is no reason to change it because some people... even if it is a majority... don't like to be PKd and ONLY want the PvE experience.

    1. I find it funny that you would consider even a majority to be "some people"--nice try at being misleading. Now, let's see how your sentence would sound if written accurately:

    "there really is no reason to change it [just] because most people don't like to be PKd"

    Now you read that to yourself and tell me if you think it makes sense.

    Also, you made a straw man. Who says that everyone who doesn't like the concept of griefing "ONLY want[s] the PvE experience"? What if they enjoy structured PvP instead, or also? There's probably a good number of players who focus on PvP, but are interested only in honorable fights, as opposed to griefer's sneaky ambushes. They could very well argue that it takes more skill to beat a player who's ready and willing to take you on, and that griefing doesn't attract them for that reason.

    To that i say, too bad! its part of the game and always has been wether you like it or not.

    Two-dimensional graphics have also always been a part of the game. This is the is-ought fallacy--just because something is (or was) a certain way doesn't mean it ought to be/stay that way.

    (thatll change tho because blizzard will listen to you guys and press the destruct button on one of their greatest games)

    Like I said, if there is a system where you can toggle 'open' PvP (allowing griefing) when you make a game:

    1. If most people opt into it, then there's no problem--griefers will have plenty of places to 'do their thing', while the minority can also do their thing, enjoying the game their way.

    2. If most people opt OUT of it, then there's no argument that removing griefing would 'destruct' Diablo 3, since that would be proof positive that griefers are a small minority that wouldn't have any significant effect on the success of the game.

    You're just being a doomsayer. Claiming that removing griefing will completely wreck the game is absurd, especially with the addition of structured PvP, something that Diablo 2 never had to begin with.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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