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    posted a message on The RMAH Destroyed Diablo 3 and I Told You So

    A few points:

    1. This isn't some "after the fact" rationalization which Zhaph claims it is. The quotes were from before when Blizzard decided to remove the RMAH, and some were from even before launch.

    2. Medea294 is incorrect to say that everyone knew the RMAH was a bad idea except Jay Wilson. In fact, many people defended the RMAH and some of those people are quoted in the OP.

    3. As for me not buying the game. That doesn't mean I don't know what's happening in the game. I still read and watch news.  I didn't buy the game because of the RMAH. I would be a hypocrite if I did buy it. I didn't even buy the game when they announced the RMAH was being removed, I only bought it yesterday, AFTER it was removed for real.

    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on The RMAH Destroyed Diablo 3 and I Told You So

    The RMAH has been removed.

    It was glaringly obvious from the very beginning that the RMAH, which legalized buying items and gold for real money, would destroy Diablo 3 and that it would make the game pointless. Yet Blizzard and the RMAH defenders, who have now proven to be utterly and irrefutably wrong, supported the RMAH by desperately clinging to debunked arguments, even as it was clear that the RMAH was ruining the game.

    Many other people, including me, explained that they were wrong, but Blizzard and the RMAH defenders were too dense and arrogant to listen to reason.

    Let's look at some of the totally WRONG arguments they wrote.

    First, they said that the RMAH was made to combat third party sites by legalizing the buying of items for real money, which people were going to do anyway.


    Acquiring items has always been an important part of the Diablo series, but the previous games have not had a robust, centralized system for facilitating trades, and as a result players have turned to inconvenient and potentially unsafe alternatives, such as third-party real-money-trading organizations. Many of the transactions between players and these organizations led to a poor player experience and countless customer-service issues involving scams and item/account theft, to name a few. To that end, we wanted to create a convenient, powerful, and fully integrated tool to meet the demand of players who wished to purchase or sell items for real-world currency, and who would likely have turned to a less-secure third-party service for this convenience.

    Source: [url]https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/diablo-iii-auction-house-general-information[/url]

    tired of ppl crying about the ah. would you rather that ppl still bought crap off of chinise farmers? it was gonna happen weather bliz added in the ah or not. you dont like it then dont use it, pretty simple.

    Source: [url]http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/29239-from-a-year-ago-how-did-d3-and-the-rmah-turn-out?comment=2[/url]

    i think the point people are missing is in most major rpgs people will buy and sell items on ebay anyway, so why not make it part of the game?

    nothings changed here, instead of people buying items on ebay, they are using the RMAH

    Source: [url]http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/29239-from-a-year-ago-how-did-d3-and-the-rmah-turn-out?comment=7[/url]

    Welcome to capitalism? I mean I'm serious, trading money for time and vice versa is completely standard in almost all aspects of life.

    It makes sense it would transfer into gaming as well.

    People are always going to do this. If you're rich enough you won't care about its legality. It makes sense for game makers to legalize it, remove the scamming aspect, take a 5% profit from it, and destroy all the gold selling sites by making their service better.

    Source: [url]http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/301467-do-you-agree-with-item-gold-buying?page=2#38[/url]

    WRONG. Destroy the gold selling sites? What the RMAH accomplished was destroying the game. Of course, I told them that the notion that Blizzard should allow players to buy items for real money by legalizing and facilitating it because players were going to do it anyway is stupid because their dumb argument would imply that Blizzard should allow players to buy bots for real money by legalizing and facilitating it:

    Blizzard should sell honor farming bots.

    People clearly want honor farming bots considering how popular they are.

    And they can make a buck by selling them, instead of forcing players to go through shady 3rd party sites to get their hands on these bots.

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2926855094?page=19#379[/url]

    How did Blizzard and the RMAH defenders respond? They couldn't. They were not smart enough to think of a response. They had no response at all.

    And this is why I won't waste time explaining to you why your comparison of botting to an AH is absurd. You're being downright irrational.

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2926855094?page=19#379[/url]

    Next, they used the argument that it won't affect you if you don't use it.

    It's terrible how many people are QQ'ing about this feature.

    1.) It won't affect your gameplay in any way. At all.

    2.) It's an optional feature..which means you don't have to take part in it.

    Do I really have to say more?

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2926885066?page=23#442[/url]

    WRONG. Even Blizzard has now rejected this completely wrong argument.

    When we initially designed and implemented the auction houses, the driving goal was to provide a convenient and secure system for trades. But as we've mentioned on different occasions, it became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10974978/diablo%C2%AE-iii-auction-house-update-9-17-2013[/url]

    And even I told them that this argument, that the RMAH doesn't affect you if you don't use it, is completely bogus because the RMAH makes the whole game, all of it, pointless:

    I've never played D3 and never will.

    I don't get what's so hard to understand. Consider the following 2 questions:
    1. Why play D3?
    2. If I play D3, can I just ignore the RMAH?

    In order to ask question 2, you must first ask question 1. The answer to question 1 is, there is no reason to play D3. The game is pointless. Therefore, question 2 is moot and irrelevant. Question 2 doesn't matter, because there's no reason to play in the first place.

    To see why the answer to question 1 is that the game is pointless, consider what the point of D3 ultimately is. To make a character with good gear? Why bother, you can just buy the best gear with real money. To farm for good gear? Why bother, you can just buy it for real money. To collect good gear? Again, anyone can buy the best gear for real money. To kill Inferno Diablo without using the RMAH? Why? What is the point of gear? Is the point of the game to beat people in PvP? There's no PvP, but if there was, again people who buy the best gear would win. Every possible reason to play D3 is defeated by the point that anyone can buy the best gear off the RMAH. Therefore, there's no reason to play the game in the first place, and hence no reason to ask question 2. The game is pointless, it would be a waste of my time to play such a pointless game, so I don't.

    Source: [url]http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/369764-blizzards-comments-on-activison?page=7#126[/url]

    Then they said that the game won't be destroyed. We should just trust them on that?

    Legendaîry (yet again):
    Most the people whining here won't buy it when it first comes out. But a few months later they'll pick it up (hypocrites that they are) when they see that all their predictions about the AH destroying the game was just them being Chicken Little.

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2926855094?page=20#390[/url]

    I realize there's going to be some assumptions that this is sky is falling/slippery slope, as always, but a real money auction house is something we think will work for Diablo III because of the way the item systems work.

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2926885066#8[/url]

    1. They are a company. They were always in it to make money in some form or another.
    2. They are trying something new and it will probably work.

    Source: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2926855094?page=17#323[/url]

    WRONG, again. It destroyed the game so badly that now even Blizzard has admitted their mistake and flipped-flop on the RMAH in an attempt to fix their mess. The RMAH has proven to be a catastrophic screw up of epic proportions, the most idiotic and foolish game design decision that Blizzard has ever made:

    I didn't buy D3 only because of the RMAH. And I won't ever buy it because of the RMAH.

    There is no point in playing the game because of the RMAH.

    Why play? To make the best character? All you need to do is to buy the best available items off the RMAH. To collect the best gear? You can just buy it off the RMAH. To trade with others? The only trading is buying things off the AH. To PvP? The best way to successfully PvP is to buy the best items off the RMAH.

    Every reason to play the game is killed by the RMAH. There's no point in playing.

    And I don't play pointless games.

    Can anyone give me one single reason to play D3 with the RMAH?

    Source: [url]http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1144230-I-feel-digusted-by-D3-RMAH?p=17120067&viewfull=1#post17120067[/url]

    Even the Korean government agreed with me by banning the RMAH and banning the sale of all in-game items, citing the main reason why I hated the RMAH:

    In your face, Blizzard.

    Korea is going to ban selling in-game items for real money and botting, with a maximum penalty of 5 years in prison. And the reason they've cited for this -- the reason I used to argue against the RMAH in D3 -- games are not real life, games are for fun.

    Selling items for real money destroys fairness in the game. They even mentioned that this was done because it was unhealthy for gaming culture.

    Korea has decided to ban trade for commercial game items from the second half of this year as a measure aimed at encouraging students to not waste time.

    The Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism has announced that it is planning to halt all virtual item trades with a new law, to be announced sometime next month.

    “The main purpose of the games is for entertainment and should be used for academic and other good purposes,” said Kim Kap-soo, head of the ministry’s content policy division, Wednesday.

    The government official also stressed item collecting for commercial use is a serious hindrance to creating a healthy game culture. [...]

    Source: [url]http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/06/129_112964.html[/url]

    Source: [url]http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/345366-korea-makes-rmah-botting-and-item-sales-illegal#1[/url]

    With the removal of the RMAH, Blizzard and the defenders of the RMAH have been proven to be wrong about everything on the RMAH and its effect on the game. They have no creditability left. Their wrongness destroyed the game.

    If only Blizzard did not listen to these stupid and debunked arguments, Diablo 3 wouldn't have been so bad, received so much backlash, and be so completely pointless, as it has been since launch.

    With the removal of the RMAH, Diablo is once again a game where buying items for real money is not legalized, where rich people cannot buy the best items for real money without risking a ban for violating the rules, just because they're rich enough to spend the money. The game is now more fair.

    Equality of opportunity is restored.

    Diablo 3 can look forward to a better future.

    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on From a year ago... How did D3 and the RMAH turn out?

    One year ago, we had this discussion...

    This was before the announcement of the RMAH. The last post here was 20 July 2011. Coincidentally the RMAH was announced on 1 August 2011 (http://www.mmo-champ...eal-Life-Money!).

    And now that Diablo 3 has been released, it seems I was wrong about Blizzard never supporting selling items for real money. But I've been absolutely correct about everything else, mainly on the fact that it destroys the whole point of playing the game.

    As Kripp said what is the point of this game, when credit card warriors can just buy the best items in the game, and for what? What for? The game is pointless.

    And when Sixen, author of the thread, and the biggest Blizzard fanboy is criticizing the game lack of endgame, i.e. the lack of a point to this game, then you know that Blizzard has really fucked things up.

    So, one year on, I feel vindicated in being proved right that Diablo 3 has no point and RMAH makes the game pointless.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Diablo III Developer AMAA, Update on Auction House Commodity Sales (Working on US servers), Account Security Alert: LinkedIn
    Quote from Leonaras

    Joke post? April's fool? The moment I read that line, I actually believed I was reading a troll post in the wrong section. Bashiok stated the exact opposite, they conveniently delete it and now they're saying this. Come on. Lying through your skulls here.

    Come on, dont let your species down.

    Bashiok stated that the item drop rates were designed around the auction house, for example;

    Since the auction house exists in d3 they had to tone down base droprates for everything, because if they did not the entire thing would be flooded with thousands of legendarys/decent items.

    In no way did he state that the auction houses current load effected drop rates in game, he infact shot down that claim when it was first made. But it seems people who are decided on whining missed the logic train.

    The reason that comment is even in the patchnotes now is to debunk conspiricy theorists such as yourself.
    Except now they contradict even that.

    The AH was NOT accounted for in even the base drop rate.

    "The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House. For the majority of internal development we didn't have an Auction House, we all played using our own drops only."

    Therefore, now they're saying that they did NOT TONE DOWN base drop rates because of the AH's existence.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
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    posted a message on Diablo -- Mission: Accomplished?
    No. Diablo did not succeed. To suggest that Diablo doesn't really want to destroy Heaven because then there would be nothing left to do is based on no evidence, in fact, it contradicts Diablo's threat to Imperious that he is going to destroy Heaven.

    Diablo at this point is Team Rocket, blasting off again.

    "I'll get you next time, Gadget, next time."
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on [Spoiler] Chris Metzen hints at future Expansion(s) direction
    Imperious is not corrupted. That's just his usual personality.

    I didn't like how Diablo seemed to have killed Imperious and then he suddenly shows up at the door to the Crystal Arch as if nothing ever happened.

    What happened to Leah was sad and a great tragedy. Bringing her back will just cheapen that.

    The next expansion should focus on Malthael and his disappearance. An idea could be, after disappearing for 20 years to study the significance of the destruction of the worldstone, he concludes that the universe no longer has a point and so he wants to destroy all creation.

    Another potential idea is to explore the power vacuum in hell left by Diablo's defeat. The idea of Inarius escaping his prison and coming back to reclaim his Sanctuary would also be cool.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Quote from Nekrodrac

    Are you like a freaking maniac or something?

    Throughout this whole thing you are convinced that all or most players are on your side, along with blizzard. Yet you continue getting your panties in a mix over a hypothetical situation even though you are supposedly sure item selling store will never be in the game.

    Like, I am 100% sure something won't ever happen but hey you know what, I will still rage about it. You've got some serious issues.
    You jumped into the thread with that shitty attitude you know better than everybody when you simply don't.

    None of my claims are false, you idiot. They cannot be- something you have yet to grasp. They are only for people to consider while you've been on this whole crusade about how you are absolutely right and I am wrong. There is plenty of messed-up material with what you've just written right now but I'll skip over it. I tried at one point in getting this deal level and explained a possibility, but dealing with maniacs become extremely boring after a while.
    Another excuse for not responding to my arguments that you can't counter.

    A Blizzard-run item and gear selling store will never happen, but that's not going to stop me from pointing out your erroneous claims.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
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    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Quote from Nekrodrac

    True. I have nothing more to add. I have explained why I understand the option of item-selling store. Our point of views are based on entirely different assumptions about the game and the influence of the store.
    Yes, you have nothing to add because I have proved all your arguments wrong in those posts.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Someone is spending cash earned in real-life to buy virtual items is something foolish in my eyes. Cheating? That depends on the rules. If you notice the thread title- it says 'Future of item selling'. Neither me nor you know whether these rules will change or remain the same.
    You don't know if these rules will change or stay the same? Are you serious? Or just completely oblivious? Blizzard has always vigorously opposed selling items and gear at every single time point in the past, and at every possible chance they have to explain why they so strongly oppose selling items and gear. There is no possibility that this will ever change. Why don't you actually read some of the things Blizzard writes about selling items and gear? Then maybe you might understand why this will never change.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    In addition to referring to above reply, note that I've already given a few reasons why item selling/buying is actually so popular. The 'point' of the game does not change. The means do.
    Whether or not buying items and gear is popular (which is highly debatable since you have no evidence of how prevalent item buying is) doesn't change the fact that it is cheating. In a hypothetical future where it is allowed, the point of the game is completely destroyed. What's the point of trading when you'll just be beaten buy gear buyers? What's the point of collecting gear when you'll just be beaten by gear buyers? What's the point of PvP, when you'll just be beaten by gear buyers?

    Quote from Nekrodrac

    Question- How do you detect bought items if these have been legitimately obtained?
    How is this question relevant in any way to the quote it's replying to? That is:

    "Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters. If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play."

    The answer is, in the example where Blizzard sells gear, they will have a list of items they've sold.

    I see that you've completely dodged the point by ignoring everything I've written, and asked an irrelevant question instead.

    Quote from Nekrodrac

    It is relevant when considering gamers' behavior in relation to rare items- the reason why I mentioned it at all. It's in context.
    It's not relevant to anything. You're just throwing everything out there just to see what sticks, because you're not sophisticated enough to refine your thoughts.

    Your argument was that rare items are rare so that not everyone can get them. Then you randomly through out the completely irrelevant and unrelated fact that SoJs were duped. What has this got to do with rare items being rare?

    And now you're saying that you talked about duped items because it related to the behavior of gamers. Why does this matter? Are you trying to say players will cheat to get rare items? If so, why didn't you just say exactly that? If players want to cheat, the correct response is not "I wonder why they cheat?" (Answer: to get an advantage over legitimate players) or "Let's sell gear because that's what they want", the correct response is Blizzard's response: Ban them.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Blizzard is sueing any item/gold sellers because the latter are making profit off their product. That's my take on this matter. Note that I'm not saying you are wrong but that I on the other hand very much doubt that Blizzard did this to promote the game instead of their profits.
    Again, your lack of sophisticated thinking is showing. Blizzard isn't directly losing money because others are selling items and gear. Nor do they get money by closing down item and gear selling websites. Why doesn't Blizzard just open their own item and gear selling store, so that they can actually profit from it? Answer: because they are fundamentally against it.

    Quote from Nekrodrac

    Cheaters need to be banned. Yes.
    Oh, so now you agree that Diablo 2 item buyers and sellers should be banned?

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    The presence of a blizzard store makes the buyers normal players.
    1)Damage to the economy and item trading is impossible to assess until the game is in operation. My assumption: The consequence of spending real-life money will act as a major deterrent for many from buying from store, especially since items are freely available in-game.
    The fact that spending real life money is a deterrent to buying gear doesn't help your argument, it hurts it. The more expensive the gear, the greater the deterrent to buy it, meaning that fewer players will have bought gear, and therefore the larger the gap between gear buyers and those who do not buy gear, i.e. gear buyers will be far better off and more powerful because they have better gear than a greater proportion of the playerbase.

    I can see why you want to help gear buyers and the expense of everyone else.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    3)If a person does not have the trading skills, they won't take this route and as you previously said, they do not even deserve that item which is on trade. Let's say that person goes to buy it in a store.
    Another person who is skilled in trading comes along and gets your item(that person exists by virtue of assumption in (1). Now for that guy who bought his in a store with real-life money, the assumption that I make to determine his impact on future trading is that the spending of real-life money on that item will make said-person reluctant to part with it easily. Therefore trading won't be marred by a sudden influx of bought-items.
    Items that are bought from a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, are created out of nothing. That necessarily implies an influx of items, popping into existence, out of nothing. Your assumption that players will not trade bought items has been pulled out of your ass, it is based on nothing.

    There is no point to trading, when gear buyers will have better items. Example: There is a gear store, but a player doesn't buy gear. This player wants to get a particular rare item that will make him better at PvP. The player trades items, until he eventually trades up to this rare item. Why should the player bother going through the effort of doing this since when he eventually gets this rare item, gear buyers will already have it, and other better items to beat him in PvP with?

    In this example, the most effective way to be successful at the game is to buy gear instead of trading, bypassing one of the core activities of the game.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Let us stick to bought items and D3. I don't play SC2 nor heard of the maphack, so I have no idea what you are talking about here.
    Those 'law-abiding' gamers are to me simply people who enjoy farming and have the time for it. It's convenient for them to play the game this way. If you want to elevate them on a pedestal for it, that's your own business. I think I've already addressed the point of 'cheaters'.
    If you're not going to play the game the way it is designed and intended, within the rules of the game, which means no items and gear buying, then you deserve to get banned, because your actions hurt legitimate players. In the case where Blizzard is selling items and gear, there is no point to playing the game, there is no point to the game, because no matter what you do, unless you also buy gear, you will lose: the gear buyers will be better and more successful than you.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You said there was no connection. I merely showed you one example where there was a connection. I'm not trying to win this argument but you were wrong there.
    I'm not wrong. This is another example of you randomly spewing completely irrelevant things out. Let's go back to where this started: You said that if I wanted you to give examples of ways extra money can be used to improved the game, then you would have to wait to see what the state of the in-game economy is, in order to give those examples. This claim you made suggests that the state of the in-game economy is a relevant contributing factor to the content that gets developed for the game, not that there exists one mere example where the in-game economy was partially responsible for the development of content.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    From all the discussions on this board, most PvPers have prided themselves on their skill. While they have acknowledged the importance of items, I'm pretty sure D3 will have a wide range of that, so that the determinant of PvP will still primarily remain skill.
    And you can't buy skill with money. I can easily imagine all true PvPers getting even more thrill from beating a guy who bought his items, since this community tends to look really highly upon challenging encounters.
    I can clearly see that you've never played any seriously competitive sports or games. In a competitive game, competitive players will do everything they are legally (or sometimes illegally) allowed, in order to win. The most competitive PvP players will be forced to buy gear to compete with other competitive PvP players. The most serious and competitive players will not be gimping themselves and be relying on skill alone, they will rely on both skill and gear, since others just as skilled as them will have bought gear to remain competitive.

    In SC2, Korean professional tournament players don't say to themselves, "I will win with skill, and therefore not spend the money to hire a coach". They will spend the money to hire a coach, because other professional tournament players have coaches, and skill plus coach will give them a greater chance of winning than skill alone. Just as skill plus buying gear will give a greater chance of winning than skill alone. The most competitive PvP players would be obligated to buy gear, and the most successful PvP players will be gear buyers who just happen to be very skilled.

    Quote from Nekrodrac

    Hypocrite- a person who pretends to be what he is not
    That's the definition I got. And yes, I understand the meaning and it definitely applies to you. Feel free to continue to pretend you can't comprehend.
    Here's the quote you were replying to when you called me a hypocrite:
    "8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because it will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally."

    Where in that quote have I pretended to be something I'm not? In fact, where in this entire thread have I pretended to be something I'm not?

    Let me give you a correct example of the usage of the word "hypocrite": If I were on the Blizzard web team, gleefully making those ads you can see on the WoW site to sell the sparkly pony mount for $20, then that would make me a hypocrite, given what I've written in this thread.

    Again you're randomly throwing things out there.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You have simply arranged (1) and (2) for your own convenience.

    Let me try-
    (1) Item selling did not destroy D2.
    (2) Item selling will not destroy D3.
    Item selling can go with either-
    (3) Item selling gives blizzard money
    (4) Item selling gives black market money

    Just the money going into different hands.
    I haven't arranged anything. You said: item selling didn't kill D2, so item selling won't kill D3. But item selling in D2 is NOT THE SAME as item selling in D3 (the hypothetical Blizzard-run item selling store). The effect of item selling in D2, says NOTHING about the effect of item selling in D3, because they are NOT THE SAME THING.

    What you've written there makes no sense. Your (1) does NOT imply (2) because, they are different things.

    No, it's not as simple as just money going into different hands, there are 2 fundamental differences you've failed to account for: Firstly, item selling in D2 just changes the owner of an already existing item, item selling in D3 (as hypothesized) will create an item out of nothing. Secondly, item selling in D2 is illegal, item selling in D3 (as hypothesized) will be legal. Therefore, they are different.

    This causes far more complicated effects than simply money going into different hands.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    I don't see buying items as becoming rampant for reasons already mentioned. Furthermore Blizzard cannot detect bought items as far as I know so they wouldn't have been able to take any action anyway.
    Given that the best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy items, you're delusional if you can't see that item buying will become rampant, at least amongst the serious and competitive players.

    In the case of a Blizzard-run item selling store, they CAN exactly tell what items have been bought. They created those items out of nothing, for the very purpose of letting them be bought. Are you so stupid you can't see this obvious fact?

    It's not whether Blizzard can detect bought items that is important, it's the fact that Blizzard would create an item out of nothing, every time someone enters their credit card details, allowing these items to flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate. There is no feasible way to control the amount of items people buy, the same way one can control a drop rate.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    I've already explained the rationale of stores and how they could work. I believe I have nothing more to add.
    Your approach to this whole matter leaves much to be desired but understandable if you think the game will be unplayable should stores somehow be implemented.
    You haven't explained anything. All you've done is suggest that people want to buy items so they should be able to, while throwing completely random and irrelevant statements and making objectively false claims about the effects of a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    That quote unfortunately makes Maka's assessment of you pretty accurate.
    I don't care what he, nor you, thinks of me. Especially since neither one of you have countered a single one of my arguments.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
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    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Quote from maka
    To paralleluniverse: you are obviously a kid or a very childish adult, that much is plain to see.
    Beginning with an ad hominem, that's a good start to a rather sour post.

    Quote from maka
    Hell, I'm (technically) on your side of this argument, and I still tend to dislike your posts.
    If you are in favor of vanity stores, we are not on the same side, we are mortal enemies.

    Quote from maka
    That's how much you suck at posting.
    If you actually have something substantive and on-topic to say, then please do.

    Quote from maka
    All that dribble about vanity items affecting your enjoyment of the game and therefore being unfair to sell,
    No one in this thread has given a good reason why it is better to sell vanity items, than to not sell vanity items.

    Look at the poll results, over 55% of the respondents on this website agree that there should be absolutely no store at all, including no vanity item store. One reason that has been commonly given in this thread, by myself and others, is that even vanity items are unfair. If you disagree with that argument, then why don't you make a counterargument.

    Why do you think over 55% of respondents think there should be no store in D3?

    Quote from maka
    plus that thing about "why don't we play with coloured cubes instead of armour", bla bla bla. I hoped I wouldn't have to tell you this, but: vanity items =/= visuals.
    Vanity items and visuals are synonymous in the sense that every visual can be made to be generated as a result of a vanity item. This is obvious, as vanity items are purely visual.

    Consider a game, where the 5 classes appear as 5 differently colored cubes, and there exists a vanity item, that when acquired, changes the cube to appear as a normal looking character model. In this case, one can argue that this particular vanity item is not a core part of the game, therefore it is justifiable to charge $20 for it. It's only vanity, it doesn't affect gameplay in any way after all. Right?

    This is the argument of "Vanity items do not affect gameplay and are not a core part of the game so it is acceptable to charge for it", taken to its logical extreme. Agreeing with this argument, necessarily implies agreeing with the example above.

    Otherwise, you or Neckrodrac should refine your argument to "Vanity items do not affect gameplay and are not a core part of the game so it is acceptable to charge for it, as long as they do not drastically alter visuals to a point where I have arbitrarily decided that my enjoyment of the game would be hindered without it."

    Quote from maka
    The fact that you think it's "unfair" to sell something like that because it *might* affect your enjoyment of the game is hilarious.
    If it's so hilarious it shouldn't be difficult to come up with a counterargument.

    Quote from maka
    I guess that, in theory, anything *might* affect your enjoyment of anything, so nothing should be sold, everything should be given.
    Last I checked, D3 won't be free.

    However, if you would like to send a free copy my way, I'll be happy to accept it. And if you send a free copy to every player, I will concede my argument is erroneous, because then D3 really is "given".

    Quote from maka
    Hell, I'm gonna march right now to the car dealer down the street and tell him that it's unfair that he charges extra for those 22" rims!
    A car is not a game. If you can't articulate your argument within the confines of the discussion, instead of appealing to an analogy that doesn't even fully apply, then you need to improve your exposition skills.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
  • 0

    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You won't make a very good detective though. Your suspicions are crappy. I can reply to all of your so-called arguments but unlike you I have identified from where our perceptions differ and have thus explained to you why I can understand the rationale of a store. Of course I now know you do not have the ability to understand anything beyond your opinion.
    I didn't write those posts only so that you can understand them, although I would hope that the first step before replying is obviously understanding. I wrote them to show that you are wrong and so that people can argue against them, if they disagree with what I said. I see that you have nothing further to say or argue.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You see, you can't understand anything. Rare items are RARE. That's how the game is designed which also means that only a minority will get them, however much trading there is. So what will happen to the rest, eh? Damn you are so clueless, it's pathetic. If trading was so easy, why would people ever want to spend real-life money on items? Make some sense already besides your cheating melodrama. Seriously, I'm starting to doubt you even have a brain, nevermind a functioning one.
    And ya SOJs were all totally genuine. So much that people were selling them by the hundreds.
    The fact that you or anyone else are unable to obtain a rare item in a legitimate way, within the rules of the game you agree to when making a B.net account, doesn't give you the right to cheat in order to get them. Buying and selling items is cheating.

    Your assertion people should be allowed to buy items because they are unable to legitimately obtain those items by trading is a direct endorsement for cheating. It is a complete antithesis to the whole point of the game.

    Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters.

    If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play.

    Item duplication is completely irrelevant. It is a solved issue, no item has ever been duplicated in WoW.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Be careful- you could overdose on excess self-rightenousness. Oh yeah blizzard, ban them! So easy- i mean in your fairy world it must be. I'm sure all the righteous gamers who spend their days farming/trading items instantly recongize duped or bought items and must feel all heart-broken and all.
    Oh the tragedy!!!
    Not only is it easy for me to say, it's easy for Blizzard to say too. Blizzard bans item and gold buyers, they ban maphackers, they sue item and gold sellers. They are correct to take this sort of action, because all of these examples undermine how the game is intended to be played. Not banning cheaters will give an unfair advantage to cheaters at the expense of legitimate players.

    You've also completely dodged the core of my argument, justifying why cheaters need to be banned:
    1) Their actions damage the economy.
    2) The people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers.
    3) They undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game.
    4) Legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    If playing the way the game is meant to be does not provide the most fun, players will find a way around. I am sure none of us skipped content here. I mean how could we possibly have done something so aweful(and against the game's philosophy) and yet enjoyed the game?
    Impossible right? Oh man, seriously, get a clue.
    I've never claimed that cheaters are not having fun. But who is hurt? The fun they experience is derived from the unfair advantage they have over legitimate players, whether it's because they use a maphack to remove the fog of war in SC2, or because they win in PvP due to the items they have bought. In all these cases, their fun comes at the expense of legitimate and law-abiding players. Therefore, they should be banned, and Blizzard is of the same opinion.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Ya I know, selling SOJs and the appearance of Uber Diablo were PURELY coincidental.
    Do you seriously think this is something that will ever be repeated again in D3? As I've already said, duplicating items is a solved issue. When's the last time Blizzard paid attention to the WoW in-game economy for anything? Never, because the in-game economy is a free market, players can do whatever they want. Do you know what actually motivates the development of content? Blizzard's development schedule, staffing, and priorities, not the in-game economy.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Such empathy warms my heart.
    I have no sympathy for cheaters, and don't be surprised if most legitimate players don't either. But most importantly, Blizzard has no sympathy for cheaters. They get banned.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Circumventing only for those choosing to do so. And there are good reasons for many to skip trading and some content(impossible to circumevent all content). I already mentioned that spending real life money for items that can be freely obtained will continue to be the deterrent for most people.
    Then those who choose to spend the most real life money will be able to buy the best items, the most gold, the strongest PvP characters. Then the cheaters win, so I can see why this is an outcome you are in favor of.

    But I can also see why this is an outcome that Blizzard will do everything in their power to stop.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You are one incredible hypocrite.
    I suggest that you stop using words whose meaning you clearly don't understand. Your usage of the word "hypocrite" is completely out of context, it doesn't even apply here. How in any way does your response to what you quoted, even if it were true (which it isn't), show that I'm a hypocrite? Stick to using only words that you are capable of understanding.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Whether it is legal or not, it's almost impossible to detect items that are bought, especially if they have been originally otained in a legit manner. So these stores will continue to EXIST. If the existence of such a store can't ruin a game, it can't ruin anything legal or not.
    Again your unsophisticated thinking is not able to grasp the issue here. In D2, items already obtained in the game are illegally sold, call this (1). In what you're suggesting, D3 should have a store where Blizzard legally sells items and gear, not already in possession of any particular player, for real money, call this (2). You claimed that (1) didn't kill D2, but how then does this imply that (2) will not kill D3, when (1) is not the same as (2)?

    Your argument would be valid if (1) is exactly the same as (2), but they are different.

    First difference: In (1), the transaction is illegal, and as a result legitimate players are not inclined to partake in such a sale. Only a small portion of players, cheaters, do this. In (2), the transaction is completely legal, so buying items can become rampant. The best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy even more items, since Blizzard will take no action against it.

    Second difference: In (1) the item is already in the game so such a transaction is harder to detect. In (2) the item is created out of nothing, and Blizzard will have a record of the items they've sold. As a result, a large amount of items will flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate, as opposed to (1) where they are controlled by a drop rate.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    I have never cheated in D2- unless you count using mods in single player offline as cheating. But I try my best to understand all parties, something you are uncapable of.
    The best you can do is label people apparently. Good luck with that.
    I understand cheaters, I understand why they do what they do, why they destroy the game, why they need to be banned, and why Blizzard agrees and rightfully bans cheaters.

    If you have a valid argument why buying and selling items for real world money is not cheating, then please make it. Until then, I and many other players, are of the correct opinion that cheaters are a cancer that needs to be exterminated.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
  • 1

    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    I want everyone to read Nekrodrac's post quoted here.

    Quote from Nekrodrac

    Alrighty then. First of all I understand my magnificent sense of humor has been kind of off-putting to you. I do apologize.
    As a result I will try to keep matters as formal as possible in this post. However I am afraid I will have to do you the discourtesy of not replying directly to what you posted. My excuse is that I have grasped much of your standpoint. So instead of going back and forth on how I am right and you are wrong, and vice-versa, I will try to explain to you my standpoint and why item-selling stores won't be the end of D3.

    Before we proceed, let's consider this famous statement made by this famous person-

    Half a game is defined as how the creators designed it and the other half how the players will approach it.

    Item selling has been around since D2 and it has been a reasonably successful and lucrative business albeit illegal. From here, we have identified that a market exists for this type of transaction.
    Now while it is easy to jump the gun and cry- cheaters!, let's examine the following scenario-

    This is entirely from my experience, though I'm hoping that when others read this, they will support this case with their own stories.

    This is my gaming post patch 1.10 on D2 lord of destruction: I have leveled between 7-8 toons to level 75. I then proceeded to farm for the stone of jordan with ALL of these characters respectively. I seem to recall from reading a few guides that nightmare(?) Andy was the best boss. However I alternated between different best-farming places with at least 3 of these characters. Another point to note, one of the characters had over 700% MF while most of the others averaged 400%. I still managed to find and kill Andy in less than a minute. Between these characters I had totaled well over 200 runs.

    Results- I have never obtained a stone of jordan though I collected a variety of other unique rings. It could be that I have just been really unlucky if not for the fact that I have heard a lot of similar stories. Then when duping came in and there were so many SOJs that the uber diablo event was created to address this issue, I understood that luck wasn't much of an issue here really.

    Now the designers (and the very lucky players) of the game might argue that the rarity of an item is what makes it worthwhile to get which is an alright philosophy if people actually have the required patience to achieve this goal. The problem here is that inevitably only a small minority of (lucky!) players will legitimately acquire the rarest of items.
    A good portion won't and it will not be due to their lack of skill or patience but that the roll of the dice simply didn't favor them.

    So here we suddenly find ourselves in a position where skill verily doesn't count. And this is what causes players to turn towards a less direct way of obtaining items. For in their minds there is really no reason as to why they didn't obtain x and y items when they've spent the same amount of time as the guy who's showing off next door with all his gear.

    This one of the ways how the market for item-selling eventually builds itself. Of course it is only part of it since there are people who simply view farming as an extremely unpleasant facet of the game and just want the gear that will maximize the power of their skills which will give them the thrill they are seeking. Yet another group sees PvP as their main way of having fun and going again through the process of farming to ready their characters becomes way too tedious and they look for the short-cut.

    The thing is that all of this has been happening since D2 but it wasn't in the open. The point though is that players have created that market and it's a certainty that this market will be here in D3.
    Some items in D3 are going to continue to be rare to keep the experience of finding one as exhilarating as it were in the previous games which will give rise to the situation(s) I described above.

    Let us switch sides for a moment and see this whole matter from the game creators point of view-
    We create a game. We tailor the experience of adventuring around looting and confronting monsters and other players.

    And then-
    We see that while we made all items (freely) available in-game, some of are actually going out of their way to buy them from third parties and they are making a decent amount of money too out of it.

    If that's how part of the player base wants to approach the game, why not give them the option and we make the money instead?

    You'll see that I regard item-selling stores as more of a natural response from blizzard rather than contrived attempt at making more money.

    I also wish to impress upon you another point- item-buying is unlikely to become rampant or out-of-control. I suspect the same group of people who bought items in D2 will be the ones buying gear for D3- that is those who can afford it and are willing to exchange time(spent farming) for money.

    The other group (probably the majority of D3 players) will find money a very strong deterrent to acquiring items through the store when these are available freely in-game.

    I mentioned in-game economy because that is the only thing in my eyes that can be truly affected and from which you can actually collect quantitative data to examine trends and results.
    You mentioned soul, integrity, fairness of game all of which are abstract/subjective and arbitrary concepts that I unfortunately cannot relate to. So I was not trying to evade any of your points but rather bring it to a level where our arguments can be more objectively compared.

    End note- Item selling has been here since D2. Some players want to play the game this way- whether you offer them this choice through legitimate means or not.
    D2 survived. D3 will too whether those stores are official or illegal. The decision for how to acquire these items will be made within the same mind-frame in either case except that in the former one, the money goes to the company who created the game. And you've already shown you know how the game can be improved with more money.

    Peace. :)
    This is the most self-indulgent post, rationalizing the "legitimacy" of cheating, that I've ever read.

    1) I suspect the reason you didn't directly reply to all of my points is partly because there are some for which you can't.

    2) The legitimate way to get those rare drops after being continually screwed by the RNG is buy trading up to them.

    3) If part of the playerbase wants to approach the game by buying items, Blizzard correctly bans them, because they are cheaters, their actions damage the economy, the people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers, they undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game, and because legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.

    4) Buying your way to the best items is cheating, it's not playing the game the way it is intended. Nor should it be the way the game is intended because striving for the best items by running content and trading is the core of Diablo gameplay.

    5) You mentioned in-game economy in relation to Blizzard spending money on patching and developing content for the game. There is no connection. Blizzard doesn't gather data to see that the average price of a SOJ is 50,000 gold, and decides as a result of this that it's time to release a new dungeon, or make a patch to nerf the Wizard because she's overpowered, or open an item and gear selling store.

    6) Yes, some people want to pay the game by buying and selling items, and those cheaters should all be banned.

    7) The core and soul of Diablo is an loot and item trading game. Buying items circumvents the need to run content or trade, therefore it destroys the game.

    8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because the game will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally.

    9) It is now apparent to me that you are a cheater, or at least a sympathizer of cheaters. Thus, I have no respect for you.

    Jay Wilson, D3 lead designer, on the core of Diablo:
    Jay Wilson: Well, Diablo, at its core is basically a trader's game. If you look at other types of progression based RPG games, World of Warcraft is a great example. In World of Warcraft the best items are you know, held by the raiders. In Diablo the best items are really held by the traders. You know those people that are really good at trading with other people. We have no intention of destroying that design or that group of players.

    Source: http://www.diablowiki.net/BlizzCast_Episode_5
    Posted in: News & Announcements
  • 0

    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Now onto vanity stores...

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    I do not regard vanity items as core of the game.
    And how do you justify this absurd claim? If vanity items are not core to the game why are there armor designers, they could just release a game with 1 armor texture. By extension of this short-sighted claim, it would be perfectly acceptable if each of the 5 classes appeared as different color cubes, and we would have to buy a character model upgrade for $20.

    To claim that vanity items are not a core part of the game is brick-headed. Nearly everything you see in a game is vanity. Items and features that are purely vanity are offered freely as a core component of all Blizzard games.

    You're shifting the goalpost from vanity items don't matter to vanity items aren't a core part of the game, because this is an argument you've clearly lost.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    It only fails if you see vanity items as core of the game and our views differ on this one.
    No. Even if vanity items are not a core part of the game my counter to your bad argument would still hold.

    You justified selling vanity items as acceptable because it doesn't have any affect in killing monsters, which is generally considered more important. And then you argued that vanity items don't make you enjoy the game more than useful gear.

    I countered by saying that the enjoyment one gets from vanity items compare to useful gear is arbitrary and subjective (especially in the case of a negligible stat increase versus a look one may want). And selling vanity items is unacceptable because it is unfair that one must pay real life money to access vanity features that do affect the enjoyment of the game.

    Where in the counter do I rely on the fact that vanity items are core to the game? Nowhere, I only claim that it has an affect on ones enjoyment of the game. Your comment that my argument falls apart if vanity items are not a core part of the game is simply false. Thus my counter holds.

    Do you even read?

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You completely lost me on this one. You are not suggesting but you are saying hypothetically... Language barrier I fear.
    Also you can't just randomly mention an idea if it is not even feasible which is I why I actually considered it as a possible alternative since our perceptions of fairness is different.
    Blizzard could easily increase the price of D3 to $70 and the expansions to $50. I'm not saying they should do this, but how is it not feasible?

    Quote from Nekrodrac

    Vanity is extra. Paying for extra is completely justifiable. Wanting extra for free is 'spoiled' to me.
    I've already explained above why vanity items are not extra. D2 and WC3 do not sell vanity items and vanity features, they are a core part of the game.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Wanting extra for free is 'spoiled' to me.
    D3 is not a free game.

    I suggest thinking before posting.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Alright let's talk a bit about this fairness business.

    First of all I simply cannot stomach that notion of being 'forced' to get a vanity item if you want it. Just like the extra in a collector's edition that you have to pay more for, vanity items are the extra of the game. Should you feel you absolutely need it to enjoy the game, then you should pay for it.
    My statement that you were replying to is the following:

    Quote from paralleluniverse
    Why would you prefer that in order to get certain vanity items someone may want, that they be forced to pay for it through a store, or go without it?
    I noticed that you have conveniently dodge the question. My statement still stands, it says "in order to get certain vanity items someone may want". Notice this preface, as it is key. It then says "that they be forced to pay for it through a store". Now if someone wants a vanity item from a store (again notice the preface, it starts with an "if"), is there any legal way for them to acquire this item without buying it from the store? No. Therefore, by definition, that person is forced to pay real life money if they want that item.

    Collectors edition vanity items are almost as despicable, but they tend not to be as fancy or used as frequently as what is typically sold in vanity stores. Two wrongs don't make a right, so pointing to WoW and SC2 collector's edition doesn't justify anything.

    Quote from paralleluniverse
    D3 is not real life but the financial model will be based on real-life applications. Like, if you are willing to pay more, you are entitled for more.
    And this is what is fundamentally unfair by definition. You should not be able to pay more to get more. Everyone should pay the same, even if it means that everyone has to pay more. As a result, everyone should get the same access to the entire feature set of the game, vanity or otherwise.

    I've already justified why this should be the case: because D3 is a game and real life money shouldn't come into it beyond the price that everyone equally pays.

    On the other hand, you've mostly been spouting nonsense throughout this thread with no justification at all.

    Quote from paralleluniverse
    I partially agree with you that item-selling stores might probably have too much of a consequential disadvantage upon gameplay
    Really? Why?

    Quote from paralleluniverse
    but as far as vanity items go, the whole playing field changes.
    Obviously your perception will be different because of the importance you attribute to these, but understand that for some vanity is fluff and such a store generating revenue is hence perfectly alright.
    Again you make a sweeping statement with no justification.

    Call it fluff all you want, the fact remains that it can affect ones enjoyment of the game, and it is unfair to charge additionally for it.

    A higher game price or a subscription model is acceptable for reasons I've already explain in the above posts. These are superior revenue generating models because they do not cause the game to be unfair.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
  • 1

    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Quote from Nekrodrac
    A shit game probably not. A good one, definitely yes. ;)
    So you're disagreement is either that a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store will not cause at least one of the points in the list below, or that the effect of all 6 of the below points will not cause D3 to be a shit game.

    1) It renders the main point of the game meaningless, that is acquiring and collecting gear.
    2) It trivializes game content as one of the primary reasons to run content is for a chance of getting gear.
    3) It delegitimizes PvP when a major contributor to winning or losing is the gear you've bought.
    4) It destroys fairness because those who are willing to spend more real life money can get more gear in the game.
    5) It destroys the sense of escapism that game should offer.
    6) Some people who do not want to play a game ruined in this way will quit.

    So which is it?

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Isn't a subscription model much more suitable for MMORPGs that have considerable server costs? I really can't see how the expenses involved in D3 would warrant one-
    Your hypocrisy is laughable.

    Firstly, if we use your bad argument that Blizzard can use the money they made from their item and gear selling store to continue to make patches and support the game, why can't that same argument be applied for the money (or excess money) they obtain from a subscription model. The difference here is that making money with a subscription model won't destroy the game.

    Secondly, you claim that a subscription model is associated with high server costs, yet you don't see how the "expenses involved in D3 would warrant one", which would imply that you know the expenses in making D3. But clearly you don't.

    Thirdly, a subscription model is not an all or nothing affair. If $15 a month is excessive for D3, then they could go with, say, $3 a month.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    which is why I deem a simple vanity store to be fair(your favorite word) as a form of constant revenue and why a subscription-based system never crossed my mind.
    We're still on the topic of a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store here, not a vanity store, as this is still a response to Sixen's post. Also, by definition, vanity stores would not be fair since players will have unequal access to vanity content dependent on whether they pay real life money for it our not. More on vanity stores in the next post.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    I don't know, man. I would love to think the poll is representative of what the majority of players feel about the whole thing but I haven't seen anything so far that would suggest that the people who voted constitute a normative sample. I might be totally wrong though and only 400 or so people are going to play D3.
    I don't appreciate your humorless attempt at satire.

    I never claim that the poll is a representative sample, nor do I require it be to make my point. You said that:

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Whether it is worth playing to you is completely irrelevant since my point was that more money can lead to more improvements. And that's pretty much a fact.
    And I agree that in the grand scheme of things, whether the game is worth playing for me is irrelevant, but the poll demonstrates that I'm not the only person who wants no stores at all, and a majority of respondents in this website, which constitutes probably the more devoted Diablo fanbase have the same opinion. A representative sample is not required for these mere inferences that I've made.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Also nobody knows the exact financial model D3 is going to be based on and the level of control the team has over it,
    Why does this matter? How is it relevant to the discussion.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    in the case of imminent failure as you have predicted should item-selling stores form part the game. Best bet is to wait and see I guess.
    A game doesn't have to be a financial failure to be a failure. I will guarantee you that D3 will not have a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, as Blizzard has always been unambiguously opposed to cheating and buying and selling gear for real world money. Blizzard has no plans to attempt financial suicide by introducing such a store.

    Therefore, my purpose has mainly been to convince you, and others, how idiotic your opinion is.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
  • 1

    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    Quote from Nekrodrac
    As for the possibility of the in-game economy being affected, I'm assuming the range of items offered in the store will be limited.
    Quote from Nekrodrac
    I know that bit was nowhere in your argument but I'm just considering the different aspects of the game that can be hit by the presence of the store.
    It is unclear why you've brought the in-game economy into this as it is not related to any of the points previously discussed.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Other illegal sites can profit from that
    What is the purpose of this statement? Why are you even mentioning other illegal sites, and in what way is it related to the argument you are making?

    Not only is this statement completely irrelevant, it is also misleading. In what way do illegal sites profit from Blizzard running an item and gear selling store? By undercutting them? By selling items not available on the Blizzard store? Surely, these sites would be more profitable if they did not need to undercut or compete with Blizzard, in the instance where Blizzard has no store.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    but my point is that blizzard can earn substantial revenue from selling a good range of gear
    Blizzard is better off earning that revenue in a way that doesn't destroy the game, such as either increasing the price of the game, making more frequent expansions charged at a higher price, or using a subscription model.

    You've also made no account of the fact that Blizzard would lose money from people who quit because their item and gear selling store has destroyed the game.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    so that if ever buying items from the store becomes common-place, there will still be items in the game that will have a high fetching price, thereby not completely invalidating your farming efforts.
    I find your analysis crude and simplistic, to the point of deceiving. Even if I were to accept your idea that only a limited range of items were sold from a Blizzard-run store, those items could then be sold for gold, up to the point where everyone who wants the item has it. This means that even selling only a limited range of items is equivalent to selling gold, and since gold is common currency, any item can be bought with gold at some price. Therefore, selling only a limited range of items is, in effect, selling all items.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    So I'm expecting the economy to adjust by itself.
    Do you even know what this statement means? I have no idea. Your language is imprecise and the meaning is completely ambiguous. Explain this statement, and then justify how you can claim it to be true.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    The way Sixen worded his post made me interpret it as there being a market out there for buying items with real-life money. And these items make it into the game.
    No, those items are *already* in the game. Item selling websites won't be able to poop or clone items into existence.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    With a blizzard hosted store, that market will still exist but this time the game developers will benefit from it.
    If by "benefit from it", you mean destroy the game causing points (1) to (6) in my posts above, then yes.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Of course, there's always the issue of competitive prices but that's a whole another matter.
    Why are you bringing "competitive prices" (whatever this is) into the discussion? In what way does it relate to your points, or the topic?

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    They key difference is that this time, it's in the open and not a backyard deal. If D2 was not broken due to that, I find it an exaggeration to claim that D3 suddenly will be unplayable because of the store.
    You've completely missed the fundamental difference between D2 and a D3 that will hypothetically include a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store. Firstly, whether illegal item selling destroyed or harmed D2 is debatable. Secondly, and more importantly, selling items in D2 is against the ToS.

    This is the fundamental difference. In legalizing this practice by opening a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, players will be encourage to buy items, instead of getting banned for buying or selling items. The amount of damage that backroom deals did to D2 is thereby directly tied to the effectiveness of Blizzard's efforts to ban these cheaters. In contrast, if D3 had a Blizzard-run item selling store no action will be taken, and as a result it will waste the efforts of collecting gear, ruin the in-game economy, trivialize the game content, undermine fairness, and in general utterly destroy the game.

    Rob Pardo on microtransactions:
    "We've taken the approach that we want players to feel like it's a level playing field once they're in WoW."

    "Outside resources don't play into it - no gold buying, etc. We take a hard line stance against it," he continued. "What you get out of micro-transactions is kind of the same thing and I think our player base would feel betrayed by it. I think that's something else you have to decide on up-front instead of implementing it later."

    When it was suggested micro-transactions might make it easier for casual gamers to maintain pace with more serious players, Pardo said, "They aren't going to be the ones spending the money."

    Source: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/81640-Blizzard-VP-Says-No-Micro-Transactions-for-World-of-Warcraft
    Posted in: News & Announcements
  • 1

    posted a message on The Future of Item Selling
    I want everyone to read this (which is why I've emphasized it):

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    Because not everyone is willing to consider spending real-life money as one of the variables to their approach to the game. You can see it this way- if you have time to farm and luck is on your side, you don't need to spend money. In the other case, you always have the option to spend cash and save yourself time.
    This is precisely the problem. The utter unfairness and inequality in this is akin to cheating, in the sense that out of game resources are brought into the game, in order to give one an advantage in the game.

    Your argument is absolutely absurd and revolting. By your logic it is acceptable for players to use power-leveling services in WoW, because it is merely spending money to save time. Consider the fact that Blizzard is unambiguously against this, and will ban you if you use a power-leveling service or bot.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    One possible advantage(I'm only speculating) is a faster way to build a PvP character.
    How is this in any way an advantage? The point of PvP is to compete with your character, in the gear that you've acquired, not the gear you've bought. This is the sort of nonsense that makes a mockery of PvP, particularly since a major contributor to winning or losing is gear, or as you suggest, the gear that you have bought.

    Have you even thought this through? This idea is at worse forcing everyone to buy gear with real life money to be even competitive in PvP, and at best, asking casual players to buy gear with real life money before attempting to PvP. Who do you think you're helping here? This is the sort of ill-conceived nonsense that will make PvP have no legitimacy at all.

    Quote from Nekrodrac
    You can argue it will be unfair but the counter to this is that you won't get someone in the arena until you feel they are ready, independent of how they acquired their gear.
    So you would have players buy their way to gear, rather than to earn it in-game and on an equal playing field like everyone else? If you or anyone is too lazy to play the game, within the constraints of the game, in order to acquire the gear to effectively PvP, then you do not deserve that gear.

    It is categorically unfair, by all sensible definitions of the word, to the person who has legitimately acquired this gear in-game that another player can simply buy that gear for real life money. In many ways, your position parallels an argument in support of cheating.

    Consider the following idea: There is a "standard gear" arena option. When a game uses this option all classes are put into a standard set of gear, so that gear has no factor in the outcome of the battle.

    Now lets evaluate this idea compared to your idea of selling gear for PvP. In what way is your idea superior to mine? None. You would destroy the essence of PvP competition to give Blizzard some more money, just as quickly as you would trade away the soul of this game for some extra patches.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
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