Good night, sweet prince, may you grace us in our dreams.
Thanks for your concern But realistically I'll probably just continue to post over at diii.net, where the flaming is not tolerated at all so people are forced to either have meaningful discussion or just not post.
And yes, I realize that this is a post after I made my "last post" feel free to laugh, etc.
Take Diablo 1 for instance, I got the game the summer it came out so it was about 4 months old and know what everyone was doing? They were killing eachother! Why? Because thats what Diablo is really all about. It never was about pve or any of that pussy stuff, it is all about a good story line and then get to the real stuff and kill eachother.
Look at Diablo 2, how many people you see make pve characters? How many people do you see not hostile and kill people? Pk and PvP are ESSENTIAL parts of any Diablo game.
The people crying about PK shouldn't play Diablo, this is a mature game that is made by the community and if you take away the PK the community of people from Diablo 1 and 2 are gonna verbally ass ram you so bad you will think you are getting violated even when they can't because you were to scared they would kill you. So regardless if you wanna cry about PK and want it out, you are gonna get grieved, you are gonna get violated, you are gonna get pushed from this game because you simply do not fit the game that is Diablo
Of course you see a lot of people PKing on Bnet because many of the people who don't like PKing stopped playing on the realms out of frustration. It doesn't prove that the PK community is larger (or smaller) than the non-PK community. All it proves is that the PKers were given the power to muscle out the non-PKers.
This is my last post on the topic and likely on these forums. The moderation here seems fickle at best since a lot of these posts are nothing but flames/insults and they are allowed to stay. Many people posting in these topics do nothing but flame/insult and they are not even temporarily banned. Add this to the fact that all the anti-PK arguments boil down to "PKing was intended to be in the game, therefoe it SHOULD be in the game" and "Your argument that your fun is ruined is invalid but my argument that is exactly the same only for me is perfectly valid."
Not to mention that most of my posts go unnoticed even when I put a lot of effort into them. Either that or they are selectively quoted so as to be rendered meaningless. Have fun guys, good luck to the anti-PKers, and don't get too stressed out, it's not worth it.
Thats right... lets make diablo like every other game out there because you could never handle the heat of PK.
The Diablo PvP system was never broken (before hacking, obviously hacking destroyed a good thing), so why fix it. Oh thats right, because while your saying the people who want to keep PK are crying.. its in fact the crying of people like you over multiple years of getting owned in game that forced Blizzards hand to change a good thing in the first place.
Gogo generic game pvp for the protection of weak players.
It's not about being "weak" or my ability to "handle the heat", it's about whether or not a style of play that is inherently divisive, inappropriate, and inconsiderate of others should be promoted in a game. I wouldn't be surprised if most anti-PK players could rush through a cookie cutter PvP build and handle themselves in PvP. The point is, they don't want to and shouldn't HAVE to just to be able to play the game that Blizzard has provided.
In the other thread, I was told that all my arguments were invalid because of two things. 1) People's fun being ruined is invalid because to remove the PK system would ruin the fun of PKers. 2) PK should be in the game because the removal of PK would necessitate a radical overhaul of the PvP system. Although I have gone over these points before, I will attempt to tackle them again, and hopefully these relevant sentences will be included in any quotes people take from this post.
For number one, PKing is designed to ruin the fun of other players. You may not do it just to ruin their fun or "grief" them, but that is the result. That is what it is designed to do. Having fun by causing others misery is not a constructive style of play to promote. So when you say my argument is invalid because the PKers fun would be ruined if it's removed, that's kind of my point. I am saying that the fun they are having is destructive and harmful to the community, and should not be promoted.
For number two, that is once again my pont. The PvP system NEEDS a radical change to allow players of all types to have fun playing on the realms. There are ways that PKers can still have fun, like the suggestion that many people have come forward with of seperate realms for PvP-enabled and non-PvP. Unless your style of play requires killing people who don't even want to fight back, this should be no problem. As for how it would "split the community", I disagree. There are plenty of people who don't play D2 on the realms or at least in public games because they dislike the PvP system. If a system like this were implemented, these people would all have places to play in public. Thus, while the community would be split, the net size of the comunity would be larger than it would be otherwise, mitigating the effect.
I don't really have high hopes for this post, since most of my posts in the last thread were either ignored completely or selectively quoted to cut out the relevant parts of my post. I tried to keep it a little more brief than my multi-pager last time, so who knows? Oh yeah, and I was wondering if I could request that everyone could keep the insults and personal attacks to a minimum? It's what got the other thread closed, so if you really care about this discussion, it's not a constructive way to proceed. I'm not trying to backseat moderate here, I just feel strongly about this topic and would hate to see this thread end like so many other PK threads: locked.
Anyone who joins a game is subjecting themselves to this competition though. The competition is inherent to the game. More so in HC mode. It's like going into a counter-strike game and demanding that everybody use knives... and then when someone kills you with a gun, saying that you weren't willing to engage in a gun fight so they are doing something wrong. If you are familiar with CS, you will know what I mean.
It is actually not like that at all. There isn't a large section of counter-strike that can be played without killing other players. The game is based ENTIRELY around conflict with other players. Diablo 2 is not, there is an extensive PvM portion of the game that has had much more effort put into it than the PvP aspect. The games are entirely different, and beyond comparison. You tell people they cannot compare Diablo 2 with any other game when they try to make a point, but you endlessly compare it to games that have very few if any similarities to Diablo 2. You're choosing to selectively pick aspects of the games and use that as support for your argument. "You can kill people in D2, you kill people in CS: Ta-da! It's like the same game."
Just because you choose to ignore the PvM aspect of Diablo 2 does not mean that everyone does.
This is the only part of your post that I read because I am just skimming through these quickly
Quote from Souther »
when you said long, you weren't kidding
anyways, the PK system in D2 should be implemented in D3
Great, glad I spent the time to phrase me thoughts in a very detailed, organized manner. I hope someone enjoyed it anyway.
Edit: Ok, I just can't resist posting a little bit more than that. I went back and looked at the first post again. You said
Quote from etslayer »
Anti-PK camp: "other players should not be allowed to impose their playing style on me if I don't want to fight them!"
Wrong.
- nobody has the right to play the way they want in a multiplayer game. Everybody has equal opportunity to play within the rules proposed by the game. Only on single player or in private games do people have the right to make their own rules. Therefore PKers are not infringing on anybody's rights as long as they are not hacking. So if PKing is an imposition, telling people they have no right to PK you is also an imposition.
- your character has no rights. Your character is the property of Blizzard, not you.
What you don't seem to understand here is that I am not arguing that PK is not in Diablo 2, or that it was not supposed to be in Diablo 2, I am arguing that it SHOULD not be a part of Diablo 3. I am arguing that it is destructive, divisive, and inappropriate. These reasons are backed up with statements such as the ones above in my large post. Saying that it ruins people's fun because they do not want that type of interaction is completely legitimate as an argument. You didn't "disprove" that argument, you just said "I won't consider that a legitimate response because I don't want to".
Wow, these boards are pretty active. One day and another 20 pages pop up. I'll see if I can hit all the points that really stood out to me.
Quote from "etslayer" »
I agree, sometimes the duel is over before it began because the PKer is stronger than you, so you just have to end up leaving the game or waiting it out. But just because someone can potentially be too strong for you does not mean they should be denied the ability to compete with you. Are you saying that PKing would be OK if the PKer is not very strong?
Once again, the problem isn't avoided if my character avoids dying. The problem is that the PKer is intruding upon my game in a hostile manner. As soon as he hostiles me while I'm playing with people in a PvM game, he has succeeded in ruining my game. It doesn't add a bit of thrill to my game, or "competition", it adds feelings of frustration, anger, and resentment. The form of gameplay known as PKing is intrinsically divisive and harmful because it involves causing grief to players who do not want to participate. Keep in mind that since I am trying to play a PvM game, I have no interest in trying to PKK. I'm not going to bother "fighting back" because I don't have fun doing that. You seem to be saying that playing the game that way is fundamentally wrong, that I am defective as a person for not wanting conflict with other players.
Quote from Timaah »
This is a game based on blood and murder. Feelings? WHo asked you about your feelings?
I mean obviously your not gonna get PKd every single game you enter.. not even for the majority of them. But having the fear in the back of your head that eventually you WILL BE PKd.. even in areas where you really really dont wanna be.. makes the game that much more unpredictable and fun.
First of all, every person has feelings and emotions. PKing evoked negative emotions from those on the receiving end, but that's not the end. You see, if I die to an enemy in PvM, I don't feel upset or angry. Maybe disappointed that I made a mistake, but not upset. However, if a PKer comes into my game and ruins it for me just because he wants to cause me grief, THEN I get upset. It is overwhelmingly frustrating to have someone come and take my game away from me until they decide to give it back, or until I decide to pack up and leave. How is this constructive gameplay? How does this promote a community of gamers that can get along with one another?
The fear of potentially being PKed does not make the game more fun for me and many others. Many of the options we have suggested are regarded as foolish because it would "split the community too much". Well, if this is the way you and other PKers feel about the game, I would rather be split up. In fact, since many of you seem to advocate PKing because it's "competitive", I would think you would want the community split as well. I can guarantee that I will never give a PKer a chalenge because I don't -want- to fight him. If this is still fun for the PKer... well, that's my point: a play style that requires the participation of unwilling individuals is destructive and hurtful.
Not to mention that if PK exists in D3 despite what the devs have already said, I imagine many people who are adamantly against PK will just play single player or LAN games, which would split the community even moreso than seperate PvP servers, and in a much less constructive way.
Quote from "Ston3r" »
i hope blizzard doesnt fuck up and Diablo III is still apart of the Diablo series, because if i buy Diablo 3 and theres no hostile button on my party screen i am personaly never considering Diablo III apart of the real Diablo franchise that the brutaly genious game designers conjured many years ago.
This post really disappointed me. Is non-consensual hostility really the ONLY defining feature of the Diablo series for you? The entire series is defined for you by the ability to come into a PvM game and take it away from those who don't want PvP interaction?
Quote from Ston3r »
google online RPG and i garuntee if you arent blind you will find hundreds of games that are more suited for your weak-of-heart kind that cant handle pking
...
if your scared of a challenge stick to WoW, if your up for something that requires skill and talent then play a real game.
...
im just aggrivated by how scared people are of getting your charachter killed in a game, because that means that i cant have the thrill i seek.
Wow, a lot of anger here. I'm sure everyone on the other side of the argument would appreciate further comment from you to come without the insults and vulgar language. It really only detracts from your argument anyway, so I'm not sure why you insist on insulting people in almost every post you make.
Anyway, I'll repeat. It's not about being "scared my character died" or anything like that. It's about the disrespect the PKer shows for other people. It's about my ability to go and play PvM, which is a large, detailed world that has much more game support than PvP, WITHOUT it being ripped away from me by someone just because they can. As for PvM not requiring skill or talent, well, I agree that the game could stand to be much more difficult. It could also stand to have a lot more endgame content included in the PvM aspect of the game. I've played several mods for Diablo 2 and I must say, several of them have done a fantastic job at including endgame content as well as increasing the difficulty of the game.
Quote from Timaah »
Our sides will never agree...
see on my side (i don;t speak for everyone as im sure that you are correct about of alot of the anti-social misfits) there are big balled, blood hungry, top of the game, players. Players who are good enough to go out into the chaotic d2 pvp/pk system and own people... you know, geenrally stay alive long enough to do some dmg.
and on your side all i see is the argument comeing from the people who couldnt hold their own in the pvp/pk system.
its that simple.. if you were good, you LOVED it.. if you were bad.. well, you know how you feel.
Wow again. I can't say I'm surprised at the rudeness coming from the pro-PK crowd, since PKing itself is very rude, but this is pretty impressive at being offensive. As a side note, I guess these forums aren't quite as strictly moderated as those over at diii.net. Good news for etslayer, the thread starter, since he got 3 day temp banned over there for his unruly behavior in the PK threads.
To get to what you actually said, I'll put it here one more time for emphasis. It's NOT about "being good enough to compete" with the PKers. I just want to open a public game and be able to have other small balled, vegetarian, bottom of the barrel PvM players come and have fun together without some guy with huge balls coming in and stomping all over us. Since this is the internet, I'll just point out here that this paragraph was meant to be mostly humoruous.
Quote from "Djinn_690" »
[quote name='Happyfeshuzz]PK? How is PKing competitive? While I agree that the system is fine as is (it is fun to randomly kill one another for fun, screwing around), I am adamantly against PK.[/quote']I dont know about you, but for me it was one of the things that drove me to make much stronger characters.
This is actually another good point. There are some people who enjoy challenging themselves by using builds that may be considered underpowered, or work under other restrictions to artificially make the game more dfficult. Being forced to spec every character I play online with for PvP is not a benefit of the open-hostility system. If anything, it's a drawback. Here's another interesting link that likely no one will follow about a player who completed normal and nightmare difficulty with a sorceress, only allocating skill points into fire bolt, warmth, and fire mastery. Did I mention that this character was hardcore?
Oh right, I guess I should mention that he's also one of the most outspoken opponents of the open-hostility system I have ever seen. What a skill-less, talentless carebear.
Quote from "draeger" »
If you were in the game to farm an item or farm experience and somebody else is taking your zone, you get rid of them - plain and simple. It's hardly a quesiton of 'griefing' since that player can, in turn, resurrect and come back after you. Griefing is a terrible word for what it really is - PvP competition. It's dumb sharing a zone when you can have the entire thing to yourself. On a similar note, if I'm doing my thing and somebody wants a piece of it, I'm more than willing to either fight for it or concede by porting out if I feel my experience is too valuable. Everybody puts their cards in the middle and the winner is decided.
It's not PvP competition though. If it is welcome conflict then yes, but a PKer who hostiles people who do not want that type of interaction is indeed just griefing. True, I as the person who was killed or run out of the area have the option to come back and start a fight. But that's not want I want to do, and I won't have fun doing it. All I wanted to do was play PvM with like-minded individuals without having the game be taken away by someone who just wants to impose his will on us.
Quote from "cbr" »
I lol'd. If you feel guilty over an internet game, I think there isn't much left to be said.
Feeling guilty is a natural reaction when you realize that you have performed an action that caused another person grief without gaining anything yourself. Yes, it is an internet game, but there are real people playing this game, with real emotions. You can call me a fairy or carebear or whatever for recognizing that people have emotions, but it's true all the same. When a person is forcefully pulled out of the game they wanted to play and PKed, I can assure you that what they feel is not constructive or positive in any way. I have never said to myself "Wow! What a rush! That competitive edge is -exactly- why I play this game." after getting PKed. More likely I feel frustrated at how easy it is for another person to lock me out of the game I wanted to play, or disappointed that the game can not supply what was advertised to me: A fun online experience playing WITH other people.
Well that was pretty long, but I guess I said most of what I wanted to say. I welcome criticism, comments, and retorts, but if the responses to my post are as callous and offensive as many of the others I've seen in this thread, I think this will be my last post on these forums, sadly. Also, seeing as how my post was so long, I didn't go back and proofread it too much, so please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.
There is NOTHING competative about being able to choose who can and can't ever attack you.
This is not strictly true. Consensual dueling is good competition and can even be structured into a competitive tournament. On the other hand, there is nothing competitive about entering a game, hostiling everyone in it and then waiting outside town until everyone else just leaves the game. That's just going out of your way to drag unwilling participants into a game they never signed up for, ruining their fun. By the way, can I trouble you to read my first post in this thread, the one I reposted from diii.net that you never responded to there either? Thanks in advance
Diablo is a dark world. Pking fits perfectly into that.
I'd like to know how exactly PKing fits into the flavor and story of the Diablo universe. Yes, it is a dark world, but you are playing the role of a hero fighting against the darkness. What sense does it make for one of these heroes to go around killing other people who are also fighting against the darkness? Granted, I'm not very intimate with the Diablo lore, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Sup etslayer, too bad your thread on diii.net got closed. I'm going to repost one of my responses from that thread that you never answered and see if maybe you will answer it here.
______________________________________________________________________
Hmm, a lot's happened since I last posted. Let's see if I can cover everything I want to.
let me start with this
Quote from etslayer »
In HC mode, every single aspect of the game is taken to the hardest possible degree. Therefor to abandon the maximum PvP challenge is to not actually be hardcore.
This is just not true. I believe that you play your hardcore characters a certain way, but there is no reason to think that that is part of being hardcore. The one and only thing that changes when you check the hardcore box is that when you die, you do not respawn. That's it. It doesn't "take every single aspect of the game to the hardest possible degree". It just makes you not respawn. If I check hardcore will every unique monster have a devastating combo of attributes? Way more Multishot Lightning Enchanted than normally? More mobs of monsters that are harder than other potential spawns? Will my act 3 be as sprawling and maze-like as possible?
The answer to all those questions is "maybe, but it's no more likely than if you were softcore". So please, don't tell me that hardcore implicitly means you wouldn't mind getting PKed, because the box could be labeled "No Respawn" and it would do and mean exactly the same thing.
-=[]=-
It seems like not many people who are posting in this discussion followed the link I posted to an old but well detailed argument against PK, so I'll just repeat a lot of it here. (the link I posted was to http://sirian.warpcore.org/diablo2/protest.html if anyone here is interested) The fundamental problem people have with understanding why I and many others dislike PK so much is that they think "If the PK doesn't kill anyone, the PvM players have 'won' and his impact is trivial and meaningless." This is wrong. If I am playing a PvM game with people and a PKer joins and hostiles everyone in the game, he has ALREADY WON.
Now my options are:
1) continue play as normal and get killed by the PKer
2) run back to town and hope he leaves
3) join a different game
In any of these situations, my gameplay has been disrupted in a way that I never wanted to have happen to me. The PK may not have killed anyone, but he ruined our game, which was his goal. That is why I say that he has already won, so don't tell me that PKing is trivial because it's so easy to avoid death.
So what it basically boils down to is that the PK's dollar is worth more to the company than my own. We both bought Diablo 2 to play the game we wanted to play. I wanted to play the game advertised on the back of the box, and he wanted to play a game involving killing people who played the game on the back of the box. Apparently, his game is more important than mine. I understand people are saying "PvP is a critical and intrinsic part of playing on Battle.net", but I would disagree with that as well. The box for Diablo 2 didn't say anything about having every B.net game requiring PvP, or really anything about PvP at all. PKing was certainly not one of the main selling points of the game. Maybe a lot of people bought the game for PvP, but it was not touted as a reason why one should buy the game by Blizzard North.
So when I install this game with supposedly co-op multiplayer with a wide audience of people to meet and play with only to have my party get destroyed by some random person who wanted to ruin our day, what am I supposed to think? It's no coincidence that I stopped playing on B.net less than a month after I bought D2.
_________________________________________________________________________
By the way, I find it more than a little entertaining that you're still waving that quote I posted around like it justifies PKing in the game. Just because it was intended to be in the game does not mean it SHOULD be in the game. Not to mention, that when he said that he was not in any way speaking for the company, which if any of the pro-PK people had followed the link I posted initially, you would know. I only posted it anyway to correct someone who said PKing was an unintended side effect of the PvP system.
And here's my final statement from the last topic, right before it got closed:
A type of gameplay that requires conflict with UNWILLING PARTICIPANTS is a divisive, anti-social, hurtful style of play with no regard for others' feelings or wishes. It should not be in the game.
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Thanks for your concern
And yes, I realize that this is a post after I made my "last post" feel free to laugh, etc.
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Of course you see a lot of people PKing on Bnet because many of the people who don't like PKing stopped playing on the realms out of frustration. It doesn't prove that the PK community is larger (or smaller) than the non-PK community. All it proves is that the PKers were given the power to muscle out the non-PKers.
This is my last post on the topic and likely on these forums. The moderation here seems fickle at best since a lot of these posts are nothing but flames/insults and they are allowed to stay. Many people posting in these topics do nothing but flame/insult and they are not even temporarily banned. Add this to the fact that all the anti-PK arguments boil down to "PKing was intended to be in the game, therefoe it SHOULD be in the game" and "Your argument that your fun is ruined is invalid but my argument that is exactly the same only for me is perfectly valid."
Not to mention that most of my posts go unnoticed even when I put a lot of effort into them. Either that or they are selectively quoted so as to be rendered meaningless. Have fun guys, good luck to the anti-PKers, and don't get too stressed out, it's not worth it.
1
It's not about being "weak" or my ability to "handle the heat", it's about whether or not a style of play that is inherently divisive, inappropriate, and inconsiderate of others should be promoted in a game. I wouldn't be surprised if most anti-PK players could rush through a cookie cutter PvP build and handle themselves in PvP. The point is, they don't want to and shouldn't HAVE to just to be able to play the game that Blizzard has provided.
In the other thread, I was told that all my arguments were invalid because of two things. 1) People's fun being ruined is invalid because to remove the PK system would ruin the fun of PKers. 2) PK should be in the game because the removal of PK would necessitate a radical overhaul of the PvP system. Although I have gone over these points before, I will attempt to tackle them again, and hopefully these relevant sentences will be included in any quotes people take from this post.
For number one, PKing is designed to ruin the fun of other players. You may not do it just to ruin their fun or "grief" them, but that is the result. That is what it is designed to do. Having fun by causing others misery is not a constructive style of play to promote. So when you say my argument is invalid because the PKers fun would be ruined if it's removed, that's kind of my point. I am saying that the fun they are having is destructive and harmful to the community, and should not be promoted.
For number two, that is once again my pont. The PvP system NEEDS a radical change to allow players of all types to have fun playing on the realms. There are ways that PKers can still have fun, like the suggestion that many people have come forward with of seperate realms for PvP-enabled and non-PvP. Unless your style of play requires killing people who don't even want to fight back, this should be no problem. As for how it would "split the community", I disagree. There are plenty of people who don't play D2 on the realms or at least in public games because they dislike the PvP system. If a system like this were implemented, these people would all have places to play in public. Thus, while the community would be split, the net size of the comunity would be larger than it would be otherwise, mitigating the effect.
I don't really have high hopes for this post, since most of my posts in the last thread were either ignored completely or selectively quoted to cut out the relevant parts of my post. I tried to keep it a little more brief than my multi-pager last time, so who knows? Oh yeah, and I was wondering if I could request that everyone could keep the insults and personal attacks to a minimum? It's what got the other thread closed, so if you really care about this discussion, it's not a constructive way to proceed. I'm not trying to backseat moderate here, I just feel strongly about this topic and would hate to see this thread end like so many other PK threads: locked.
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It is actually not like that at all. There isn't a large section of counter-strike that can be played without killing other players. The game is based ENTIRELY around conflict with other players. Diablo 2 is not, there is an extensive PvM portion of the game that has had much more effort put into it than the PvP aspect. The games are entirely different, and beyond comparison. You tell people they cannot compare Diablo 2 with any other game when they try to make a point, but you endlessly compare it to games that have very few if any similarities to Diablo 2. You're choosing to selectively pick aspects of the games and use that as support for your argument. "You can kill people in D2, you kill people in CS: Ta-da! It's like the same game."
Just because you choose to ignore the PvM aspect of Diablo 2 does not mean that everyone does.
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Great, glad I spent the time to phrase me thoughts in a very detailed, organized manner. I hope someone enjoyed it anyway.
Edit: Ok, I just can't resist posting a little bit more than that. I went back and looked at the first post again. You said
What you don't seem to understand here is that I am not arguing that PK is not in Diablo 2, or that it was not supposed to be in Diablo 2, I am arguing that it SHOULD not be a part of Diablo 3. I am arguing that it is destructive, divisive, and inappropriate. These reasons are backed up with statements such as the ones above in my large post. Saying that it ruins people's fun because they do not want that type of interaction is completely legitimate as an argument. You didn't "disprove" that argument, you just said "I won't consider that a legitimate response because I don't want to".
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Once again, the problem isn't avoided if my character avoids dying. The problem is that the PKer is intruding upon my game in a hostile manner. As soon as he hostiles me while I'm playing with people in a PvM game, he has succeeded in ruining my game. It doesn't add a bit of thrill to my game, or "competition", it adds feelings of frustration, anger, and resentment. The form of gameplay known as PKing is intrinsically divisive and harmful because it involves causing grief to players who do not want to participate. Keep in mind that since I am trying to play a PvM game, I have no interest in trying to PKK. I'm not going to bother "fighting back" because I don't have fun doing that. You seem to be saying that playing the game that way is fundamentally wrong, that I am defective as a person for not wanting conflict with other players.
First of all, every person has feelings and emotions. PKing evoked negative emotions from those on the receiving end, but that's not the end. You see, if I die to an enemy in PvM, I don't feel upset or angry. Maybe disappointed that I made a mistake, but not upset. However, if a PKer comes into my game and ruins it for me just because he wants to cause me grief, THEN I get upset. It is overwhelmingly frustrating to have someone come and take my game away from me until they decide to give it back, or until I decide to pack up and leave. How is this constructive gameplay? How does this promote a community of gamers that can get along with one another?
The fear of potentially being PKed does not make the game more fun for me and many others. Many of the options we have suggested are regarded as foolish because it would "split the community too much". Well, if this is the way you and other PKers feel about the game, I would rather be split up. In fact, since many of you seem to advocate PKing because it's "competitive", I would think you would want the community split as well. I can guarantee that I will never give a PKer a chalenge because I don't -want- to fight him. If this is still fun for the PKer... well, that's my point: a play style that requires the participation of unwilling individuals is destructive and hurtful.
Not to mention that if PK exists in D3 despite what the devs have already said, I imagine many people who are adamantly against PK will just play single player or LAN games, which would split the community even moreso than seperate PvP servers, and in a much less constructive way.
This post really disappointed me. Is non-consensual hostility really the ONLY defining feature of the Diablo series for you? The entire series is defined for you by the ability to come into a PvM game and take it away from those who don't want PvP interaction?
Wow, a lot of anger here. I'm sure everyone on the other side of the argument would appreciate further comment from you to come without the insults and vulgar language. It really only detracts from your argument anyway, so I'm not sure why you insist on insulting people in almost every post you make.
Anyway, I'll repeat. It's not about being "scared my character died" or anything like that. It's about the disrespect the PKer shows for other people. It's about my ability to go and play PvM, which is a large, detailed world that has much more game support than PvP, WITHOUT it being ripped away from me by someone just because they can. As for PvM not requiring skill or talent, well, I agree that the game could stand to be much more difficult. It could also stand to have a lot more endgame content included in the PvM aspect of the game. I've played several mods for Diablo 2 and I must say, several of them have done a fantastic job at including endgame content as well as increasing the difficulty of the game.
Wow again. I can't say I'm surprised at the rudeness coming from the pro-PK crowd, since PKing itself is very rude, but this is pretty impressive at being offensive. As a side note, I guess these forums aren't quite as strictly moderated as those over at diii.net. Good news for etslayer, the thread starter, since he got 3 day temp banned over there for his unruly behavior in the PK threads.
To get to what you actually said, I'll put it here one more time for emphasis. It's NOT about "being good enough to compete" with the PKers. I just want to open a public game and be able to have other small balled, vegetarian, bottom of the barrel PvM players come and have fun together without some guy with huge balls coming in and stomping all over us. Since this is the internet, I'll just point out here that this paragraph was meant to be mostly humoruous.
This is actually another good point. There are some people who enjoy challenging themselves by using builds that may be considered underpowered, or work under other restrictions to artificially make the game more dfficult. Being forced to spec every character I play online with for PvP is not a benefit of the open-hostility system. If anything, it's a drawback. Here's another interesting link that likely no one will follow about a player who completed normal and nightmare difficulty with a sorceress, only allocating skill points into fire bolt, warmth, and fire mastery. Did I mention that this character was hardcore?
http://sirian.warpcore.org/diablo2/ember.html
Oh right, I guess I should mention that he's also one of the most outspoken opponents of the open-hostility system I have ever seen. What a skill-less, talentless carebear.
It's not PvP competition though. If it is welcome conflict then yes, but a PKer who hostiles people who do not want that type of interaction is indeed just griefing. True, I as the person who was killed or run out of the area have the option to come back and start a fight. But that's not want I want to do, and I won't have fun doing it. All I wanted to do was play PvM with like-minded individuals without having the game be taken away by someone who just wants to impose his will on us.
Feeling guilty is a natural reaction when you realize that you have performed an action that caused another person grief without gaining anything yourself. Yes, it is an internet game, but there are real people playing this game, with real emotions. You can call me a fairy or carebear or whatever for recognizing that people have emotions, but it's true all the same. When a person is forcefully pulled out of the game they wanted to play and PKed, I can assure you that what they feel is not constructive or positive in any way. I have never said to myself "Wow! What a rush! That competitive edge is -exactly- why I play this game." after getting PKed. More likely I feel frustrated at how easy it is for another person to lock me out of the game I wanted to play, or disappointed that the game can not supply what was advertised to me: A fun online experience playing WITH other people.
Well that was pretty long, but I guess I said most of what I wanted to say. I welcome criticism, comments, and retorts, but if the responses to my post are as callous and offensive as many of the others I've seen in this thread, I think this will be my last post on these forums, sadly. Also, seeing as how my post was so long, I didn't go back and proofread it too much, so please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.
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This is not strictly true. Consensual dueling is good competition and can even be structured into a competitive tournament. On the other hand, there is nothing competitive about entering a game, hostiling everyone in it and then waiting outside town until everyone else just leaves the game. That's just going out of your way to drag unwilling participants into a game they never signed up for, ruining their fun. By the way, can I trouble you to read my first post in this thread, the one I reposted from diii.net that you never responded to there either? Thanks in advance
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I'd like to know how exactly PKing fits into the flavor and story of the Diablo universe. Yes, it is a dark world, but you are playing the role of a hero fighting against the darkness. What sense does it make for one of these heroes to go around killing other people who are also fighting against the darkness? Granted, I'm not very intimate with the Diablo lore, but it doesn't make sense to me.
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Hmm, a lot's happened since I last posted. Let's see if I can cover everything I want to.
let me start with this
This is just not true. I believe that you play your hardcore characters a certain way, but there is no reason to think that that is part of being hardcore. The one and only thing that changes when you check the hardcore box is that when you die, you do not respawn. That's it. It doesn't "take every single aspect of the game to the hardest possible degree". It just makes you not respawn. If I check hardcore will every unique monster have a devastating combo of attributes? Way more Multishot Lightning Enchanted than normally? More mobs of monsters that are harder than other potential spawns? Will my act 3 be as sprawling and maze-like as possible?
The answer to all those questions is "maybe, but it's no more likely than if you were softcore". So please, don't tell me that hardcore implicitly means you wouldn't mind getting PKed, because the box could be labeled "No Respawn" and it would do and mean exactly the same thing.
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It seems like not many people who are posting in this discussion followed the link I posted to an old but well detailed argument against PK, so I'll just repeat a lot of it here. (the link I posted was to http://sirian.warpcore.org/diablo2/protest.html if anyone here is interested) The fundamental problem people have with understanding why I and many others dislike PK so much is that they think "If the PK doesn't kill anyone, the PvM players have 'won' and his impact is trivial and meaningless." This is wrong. If I am playing a PvM game with people and a PKer joins and hostiles everyone in the game, he has ALREADY WON.
Now my options are:
1) continue play as normal and get killed by the PKer
2) run back to town and hope he leaves
3) join a different game
In any of these situations, my gameplay has been disrupted in a way that I never wanted to have happen to me. The PK may not have killed anyone, but he ruined our game, which was his goal. That is why I say that he has already won, so don't tell me that PKing is trivial because it's so easy to avoid death.
So what it basically boils down to is that the PK's dollar is worth more to the company than my own. We both bought Diablo 2 to play the game we wanted to play. I wanted to play the game advertised on the back of the box, and he wanted to play a game involving killing people who played the game on the back of the box. Apparently, his game is more important than mine. I understand people are saying "PvP is a critical and intrinsic part of playing on Battle.net", but I would disagree with that as well. The box for Diablo 2 didn't say anything about having every B.net game requiring PvP, or really anything about PvP at all. PKing was certainly not one of the main selling points of the game. Maybe a lot of people bought the game for PvP, but it was not touted as a reason why one should buy the game by Blizzard North.
So when I install this game with supposedly co-op multiplayer with a wide audience of people to meet and play with only to have my party get destroyed by some random person who wanted to ruin our day, what am I supposed to think? It's no coincidence that I stopped playing on B.net less than a month after I bought D2.
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By the way, I find it more than a little entertaining that you're still waving that quote I posted around like it justifies PKing in the game. Just because it was intended to be in the game does not mean it SHOULD be in the game. Not to mention, that when he said that he was not in any way speaking for the company, which if any of the pro-PK people had followed the link I posted initially, you would know. I only posted it anyway to correct someone who said PKing was an unintended side effect of the PvP system.
And here's my final statement from the last topic, right before it got closed:
A type of gameplay that requires conflict with UNWILLING PARTICIPANTS is a divisive, anti-social, hurtful style of play with no regard for others' feelings or wishes. It should not be in the game.