DiabloFans

This thread will be updated, just post and I will add VALID arguments to the tables, yes this is biased, yes this is the PvP discussion. This will be used to strengthen the PvP argument.

Plaintiff - PvP'ers
Demands

Customizable Arena options for private matches - Game types (FFA, Teams, 2 v 3, ect) - Changing the time limit - custom respawn times (instant, XX seconds, none) - other options I can't think of right now.

World PvP option (D2 Style) - Allow world PvP as a game option during creation.

Group/Party vs Group/Party - Able to selectively choose if you want to take XXX to the arena/dual/game.

Statistics (toggleable or personal only) - Kills, deaths, highest burst damage, most players killed in a life, ect.

Guild/Clan Flags - Ability to show your guild/clan name on your flag.

Wishful thinking:

Wagers - A safe way to bet on duels (it is going to happen either way right? Cough Cough RMAH logic).


Defendant - PvM'ers
Defense

Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument. - And no you don't need to be inside of an arena for skills to be balanced, even in D2 they had ways of balancing skills on players.

Ladders - PvM'ers do not want ranks/ladders.

Esport - PvM'ers don't want an "esport".

Elitism - Don't want to deal with elitism.

Us "PvPers" aren't expecting BALANCE, we want more FREEDOM that was taken away from us (FREEDOM that we had in D2, and no not everyone's experience of PvP consisted of random public games). Since they took away the FREEDOM and tried to control PvP, they need to add certain FEATURES and OPTIONS and CUSTOMIZATION to make it right again. We want to be able to make custom PvP matches, even if that consists of battling it out in "blood moor" instead of a damn arena. The ability to fight as parties vs parties.

Right now pvp is limited to some bullshit 2v2 kill until your run out of lives crap, with no way to directly face another party (your friends) since in battle.net 2.0 social aspects have been removed from the game.

No more iron mans (and other classic fun games)
No more joining a random pub game clearing it out and having fun.
No more guild/friend/clan/random battles of 4v4 in a GM style setting.
No more challenging specific people to duels.
No more killing bots in public games (they will come in time).

Some things that could definitely be added to be an IMPROVEMENT over D2. (Very wishful thinking).
Obviously PvP games that consist of 6-12 people, we don't care if it is too chaotic and you can't tell who everyone is, but let it be an option, let us figure it out, let us make the choice if it is "too chaotic."
Statistics - Stuff like kills - damage, burst damage - most kills in a row stuff would be neat. Public/Private, people who are good can obviously show off, people who are bad just mind their own business, no harm done.


Edit, and for everyone who thinks we are trying to turn the damn game into an "ESPORT" you are full of shit whiners, pretty much every game on the market - even runescape - has better PvP than what is currently incorporated into D3, and don't deflect by telling us to "PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME" for something so fundamentally simple that needs to be in the game.

December, 2012 Headline:
"Blizzard fights angry PvPers by telling them to go play LoL."

So I am going to rant a bit because this bugs me a lot. PvE people and Blizzard "cough" Jay Wilson "cough". I feel like people who are agaisnt PvP in Diablo didn't even play the game.. It honestly hurts my brain to see people agaisnt PvP in this game. Truly hurts my brain. I can't grasp the concept of hating on something so much when it has literally zero effect on any PvE'ers.. If you don't want to PvP it's very simple. You just don't do it. It makes no logical sense to hate or bash something that doesn't effect you.. I'll say it again. It makes no logical sense. So I am not sure why PvE players care so much that PvP people want Blizzard to back one of the biggest, if not the biggest thing about Diablo 2's endgame. PvP.

I mean lets be real about D2 for a second shall we? So you're level 90+ on almost every character.. You've already maxed out all the PvE content in the game 8x3 = 24+ times AT THE VERY LEAST! I played the game for 5-6 years and you can imagine how many times I beat the game over and over to get loot. So in terms of story line, original content, and really anything else to the game it's over with pretty quickly or at least Diablo 2 was. First run through is nice and takes a while, everything after that you're rushing a character through the game to get to a point where you can farm bosses for loot, to trade, then to PvP. Unless you play offline which takes a lot longer and can be done for a personal goal but that has again ZERO effect on PvP so it's irrelivent. Anywho the PvE aspect of this game has been covered in that Diablo 3 will most likely have a great story line (Played the Beta, It was awesome for me and I go into it) but once the game is beaten, (yes I know Blizz said I will die a lot and Inferno mode will be incredibly hard and most likely very fun but..) you just beat end game content over and over for more loot so you can..

TRADE! That's right. That's the other part of this fantastic game which was so incredibly fun! Blizzard has already managed to ruin that in Diablo 3 making items purchasable through the game (Yes I know websites would of been selling items anyways but doing this encourages every 12 year old with a credit card to have FAT LOOTS when all they did was drop 100 extra bucks on the game making them no better then anyone else which imo is complete bullshit to promote in a game BUT ANYWAYS!) You beat the hardest end game bosses for more loot! With this loot you trade it to get better loot! So you can kill bosses faster to get loot FASTER! So you can either end the game here for yourself and trade all day (not hating, tradings cool if you wanna trade all day but there's more to the game) or you can use that nicely aquired loot too..

KILL OTHER PLAYERS. Now onto the final stage of what Diablo 2 was. I played D2 for a long, long time. It the game I've returned too most in my entire life. Everytime I came back to the game it went exactly like how I wrote it down. PvE to get Items, then trade those items, so I can be good at PvP. To do anything otherwise seemed.. Pointless..? PvP was the ultimate end game in D2 if you really think about it.

I mean really, what else is there too the game? Kill stuff for rewards, then trade rewards for better stuff, then try and build the best character for PvP. Now you might say I have a flawed view of the game or I am just being biased towards PvE because I was an avid fan of PvP and still em but I will tell you, you're completely wrong if you think that.

I LOVE a good storyline. I LOVED D2's storyline. I watched every cinematic countless times because I just enjoyed the game so much in every aspect.I came back to the game not only because I loved it's PvP but because I loved playing Diablo the game so much. To not take advantage of what Diablo 2 had to offer was just silly, and still is silly in my eyes. There's three things you can do in D2. PvE for Loot. Trade Loot. PvP. That's it. You can choose to do 1/3 or 2/3 and limit the games full potential but I chose to do 3/3 and I enjoyed D2 more then any game in my entire life.

So when you have people spamming "WAHH WE DON'T WANT IT TO BE AN ESPORT!" or "PVP WILL TAKE AWAY FROM THE PVE CONTENT BECAUSE BLIZZARD WILL HAVE TO TRY AND BALANCE IT AND PUT RESOURCES ONTO SOMETHING I AM NOT INTERESTED IN!" I'd call you a selfish person then. If you try and claim PvP wasn't a massive part of D2 then you didn't play the game to it's full potential. I want D3 to be a kick ass storyline driven RPG as much as anyone does. In fact I am sick of all this PvP games I've been playing lately and I've been waiting for a great game with a great storyline to come out and I cannot wait for D3. Once I am done beating the game in 2-3 months I will want to move on from the RPG aspect and start PvPing again. Except I can't because it's not going to be supported what so ever..

The game will be completely imbalanced most likely for PvP. (I am aware D2 was imbalanced but D3 has the knowledge, the tools (the pve and pvp balancing tool which YES THEY DO HAVE!), and the time to make it balanced for the PvP community. Blizzard is a big boy company now since D2's release and they can handle this shit if they so choose too they just simply aren't which again, blows my mind) The game will have very little support for PvP compared to the PvE aspect and won't have any ranked system for players to go up against each other and see who's the best. To not promote or care about one of the three BIGGEST aspects let alone the ONLY three aspects of D2 makes me lose faith in Blizzard as a company and dims the light PC gaming as a whole as Blizzard has produced the best games I've ever played in the past, but it seems the future holds a different story for me and Blizzards relationship.

Supporting PvP supports the Diablo community. Supporting PvP as an eSport makes the game more popular then you can imagine. You want more PvE content? Well if the games an incredibly popular eSport it will give Blizz the money and motiviation to keep it comming with more great content for us. Supporting PvP just adds to the game. I think that's the biggest point here is that adding and supporting PvP just adds more content and things to do in the game which to my knowledge isn't a bad thing what so ever. I don't think I can stress that enough that it only adds to the greatness of what Diablo 3 can be.

So PvE'ers I am not sure what your problem is other then you want all the focus to be on PvE game for your own selfish needs because you've all made it so clear you don't dare about PvP in your game. PvP only makes Diablo 3 stronger in EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME and if you don't want to support that aspect guess what.. YOU DON'T HAVE TOO! Just go kill monsters and shit to trade over and over and let the community of PvP'ers be happy killing each other with that aquired loot.

PvE'ers by not supporting PvP you take away from the game, and most of all you take away from the community. Remember that when bashing PvP.

Blizzard by not supporting PvP the way it should be supported in Diablo 3 you take away from your game, and you let down the community. Remember that when neglecting a major aspect of what made your game popular and what kept people coming back to play it.

I don't know about you guys, but the only reason that I ever leveled a character on Diablo 2 was so that I could PvP at end game. I don't think anyone had fun just spamming baal runs till 99 and then just stoping... PvP has always been Diablo's real end game.

Beginning: It would be cooperative and by lore, hack and slash alone or with friends. No opposite faction or open world. What better way to kill the last boss with 3 friends that got your back.
End game content: It's going to be a competitive game for who has the stronger gear and go into arena. PvP is always the only end game unless you're playing WoW where they make more bosses and acheivements.

If by competitive you mean it's about competing with your friends and every one else for better gear, then it's defiantly all competitive.

Quote from MasterFischer

It's like this really:


1 guy is a dedicated gamer

1 guy is a busy workaholic

Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.

Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?

The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.

Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game.

Blizzard has said that the focus of the game is casual play, not hardcore, not PVP.

Any questions?

Thank you for this post. I actually think my thought process and the look I have upon myself has changed thanks to this good comparison. I have been to competetive to see why before, but it makes sense now. Fun is the word. Fun, if other factors ruin your fun, you gotta stop letting these factors ruin.

Quote from MasterFischer

Quote from CherubDown

From my vantage point, I'm not too fond of this approach. I feel that the original plan worked fine. I felt that the skill restriction of having only 7 skills was enough to make the player choose which of those skills to level hard. For example, if I was given 60 points to allot to 7 different skills, I'd put 40 of those points into 2 skills and the other 20 I'd find a way to fit them in so that they make sense. OR I'd find a way to allot all 60 points into 3 skills. That would be a part of the customization, which is what Diablo is supposed to be all about.

I'll have to play the game to find out if I like the system, but as it stands from my point of view, it doesn't feel like you can actually create a bad build - which I think bad.

Why ? Why is it bad, not being able to create a bad build?

I simply cannot understand this argument.I simply cannot. Is it fun for you, failing everytime with a build? Is it fun for you having to restart and rewind everything, all the time, because you choose poorly, and because the design system is flawed?

Most people will probaly agree that this isn't a whole lot of fun. Part of what made Diablo 2 bad, was exactly the way, that bads builds were really bad, and that locking yourself into this, made the game even more skewed in a weird way.

You said u wanted to make all skill points into 3 skills, yet you had to choose from 7? That doesn't make any sense to me. Having only 3 skills out of 25 or whatever, is a bad system design.

6 skills is a perfect nr cos blizzard have internal information about skills that you don't.

Because it feels awesome to finally make a good, viable build when you've failed a few times. It's rewarding.

Ok, so I dont know if I am missing something here or not. People are arguing that they are basically taking out the players choice and consequences for their actions because you can freely choose which skills to use at any given time (which I agree). So, what if the player still had to choose which skill to use out of their 6 and they could not change it after they selected it. The skills still scale with level and are made more powerful. With that being said, you keep respec in the game to change your 6 skills that are alotted to you. This way, the players choices have consequences, there is a cost to change skills around, and this still eliminates the skill system. I just dont think that people should be able to choose whatever skill to use at any given time, that just doesnt make since to me. You are going to use whatever skill set is effective for whatever types of monsters you are fighting at that time and change it as you go. I dont feel like people have to make very many decisions and everything is handed to you on a silver platter. If anything, they should make it where it costs the player something to change their 6 skills around...by thats just me, anyone see any problems with this?

Yea, I'm not buying any of this. They are just being lazy. Instead of balancing skills so people actually have more than a couple of viable builds they are just throwing the entire concept out of the window.