I think it is unfair to summarize someone else's position to the strawman argument that they just "don't understand the beta." A lot of the people that were rather upset by everything were people that have put a lot of their time and effort into being effective beta testers and should not be dismissed out of hand just because people didn't like the tone of their argument. How is that unfair? Following your logic, Blizzard has to give in to people that clearly did not read the "everything is subject to change" disclaimer, sticking to all bad design decisions. Essentially, you're saying that even arguments based on a misunderstanding of the beta should hold up and be considered in further iterations. This will eventually lead to worse design. Is that fairer? Just because some people neglect the beta disclaimer, everyone has to live with the consequences of half-assed iterations and bad design decisions? I think this is not fair at all.
By the way, the tone has obviously a huge impact on how something is perceived, but if an argument is valid, it will not be automatically dismissed because of its tone. However, many people just don't have an argument at all. Jaetch brought forward very good arguments as to why legacy enchanting should be implemented. Blizzard acknowledged that the arguments are valid, but the implementation is not possible because of time issues. However, simply stating "70 > 60" is not valid because many many people highlighted that there are indeed level 60 items that trump level 70 items. Saying "we want legacy enchanting because it was promised to us in F&F beta" is not valid because absolutely everything has always been subject to change.
This is not about tone or fairness. This is about what's best for the long-term enjoyment of the game.
I don't really know how to be any clearer that I am not making any actual arguments to advocate for one side or the other, but rather clarifying the arguments of one side that were being incorrectly summarized. Strawman arguments are always unfair by simple fact of being logical fallacies to begin with. If an argument is to be made, it should be made against all of the merits of what it contests.
Taking this a step further, I do not understand how you can in the same post say that the people who were arguing for the inclusion of legacy items in enchanting, such as Jaetch, do not understand the purpose of a beta and then go on to say that Jaetch brought forward good arguments. Either he does not understand the purpose of a beta and thus does not have valid arguments to make, or his arguments are valid and he thus does understand the purpose of a beta, since all of his arguments are based on the testing therein. The two are mutually exclusive.
I will agree that it should not be about tone, but really, when it comes down to it, that is the main issue the community is having right now. Some people agree with the changes, some people disagree, but the majority of the commentary I have read on both boards about the changes has been an insult war about people paying to win, rabble, rambling, elitism and so on. Saying someone does not understand the purpose of the beta because they vehemently disagree with proposed changes is right up there.
As I previously mentioned, I really have no stake in this argument, I was just clarifying some of the points others - including Jaetch and MannerCookie - have made. It is not just a "one side" vs "the other side" sort of explosion. There were a lot of differing points of view which were not shared by everyone, but none of which were pointless QQ and rambling.
I think it is unfair to summarize someone else's position to the strawman argument that they just "don't understand the beta."
A lot of the people that were rather upset by everything were people that have put a lot of their time and effort into being effective beta testers and should not be dismissed out of hand just because people didn't like the tone of their argument.
To be fair, a lot of the vitriol comes from the fact that a lot of testers have been saying since the day they stepped into the Beta that enchanting was bugged in this way. They were told, eventually, that it would be fixed and that it was not intended to be that way. Then, a few days ago, blues came back with the information that, no, turns out that was not the case because some level 60 items could be re-rolled much better than the 70 items that are supposed to replace them.
The main points of contention then became:
That's not what you told us
How are we supposed to test things when you don't even know what we're testing?
There are maybe a handful of lvl 60 items that a lvl 70 might try to enchant to use as BiS item, and most of the time people still don't
Why would you make a decision like this based on so little information that isn't even completely accurate?
Okay, but you still have itemization issues to address?
So yeah, a lot of people got really mad and weren't exactly sunshine and daisies about it all, but there's more than one side to every argument, you know? The elitism I've seen from all sides about this is pretty headache inducing, to be honest. Just because you weren't upset by something does not automatically mean you are in the right or that their emotional reaction negates their reason for being upset in the first place.
Full Disclosure: I am not in the beta. I do not post on the official forums outside of bug reports. I do not really subscribe to any one side of this argument, I just read and listened a lot after the explosion happened.
I think what he meant by semi-meme is the fact that this was really only big in the manga/anime community or for people who were interested in animated stuff or cosplay. It's not like other real popular memes that spread across all communities and became really widely well-known. Just Google for top memes in 2008, it's in almost none of the top lists even of that year, let alone all-time.
I see. The way he phrased it initially sounded like he meant that it wasn't very big amongst the animanga community in particular, which it rather was.
This brought back memories!! Excellent choice in memes!! XD
Edit: This wasn't s a "semi-meme" it was a really big thing for a while. People went through a lot of effort to create and animate their favorite characters to this song. Others put on some pretty amazing cosplay and danced it themselves instead. Haven't seen it in a while, though, I have to say!
Gotta be honest, I'm pretty into MMOs and I had a similar experience. The art style in particular doesn't really draw you in, but beyond that the mechanics were just not as enjoyable in that format. I think it works better single player.
2
I don't really know how to be any clearer that I am not making any actual arguments to advocate for one side or the other, but rather clarifying the arguments of one side that were being incorrectly summarized. Strawman arguments are always unfair by simple fact of being logical fallacies to begin with. If an argument is to be made, it should be made against all of the merits of what it contests.
Taking this a step further, I do not understand how you can in the same post say that the people who were arguing for the inclusion of legacy items in enchanting, such as Jaetch, do not understand the purpose of a beta and then go on to say that Jaetch brought forward good arguments. Either he does not understand the purpose of a beta and thus does not have valid arguments to make, or his arguments are valid and he thus does understand the purpose of a beta, since all of his arguments are based on the testing therein. The two are mutually exclusive.
I will agree that it should not be about tone, but really, when it comes down to it, that is the main issue the community is having right now. Some people agree with the changes, some people disagree, but the majority of the commentary I have read on both boards about the changes has been an insult war about people paying to win, rabble, rambling, elitism and so on. Saying someone does not understand the purpose of the beta because they vehemently disagree with proposed changes is right up there.
0
As I previously mentioned, I really have no stake in this argument, I was just clarifying some of the points others - including Jaetch and MannerCookie - have made. It is not just a "one side" vs "the other side" sort of explosion. There were a lot of differing points of view which were not shared by everyone, but none of which were pointless QQ and rambling.
I think it is unfair to summarize someone else's position to the strawman argument that they just "don't understand the beta."
A lot of the people that were rather upset by everything were people that have put a lot of their time and effort into being effective beta testers and should not be dismissed out of hand just because people didn't like the tone of their argument.
--
2
To be fair, a lot of the vitriol comes from the fact that a lot of testers have been saying since the day they stepped into the Beta that enchanting was bugged in this way. They were told, eventually, that it would be fixed and that it was not intended to be that way. Then, a few days ago, blues came back with the information that, no, turns out that was not the case because some level 60 items could be re-rolled much better than the 70 items that are supposed to replace them.
The main points of contention then became:
So yeah, a lot of people got really mad and weren't exactly sunshine and daisies about it all, but there's more than one side to every argument, you know? The elitism I've seen from all sides about this is pretty headache inducing, to be honest. Just because you weren't upset by something does not automatically mean you are in the right or that their emotional reaction negates their reason for being upset in the first place.
Full Disclosure: I am not in the beta. I do not post on the official forums outside of bug reports. I do not really subscribe to any one side of this argument, I just read and listened a lot after the explosion happened.
0
I see. The way he phrased it initially sounded like he meant that it wasn't very big amongst the animanga community in particular, which it rather was.
Either way, it was fun to see it again.
1
This brought back memories!! Excellent choice in memes!! XD
Edit:
This wasn't s a "semi-meme" it was a really big thing for a while. People went through a lot of effort to create and animate their favorite characters to this song. Others put on some pretty amazing cosplay and danced it themselves instead. Haven't seen it in a while, though, I have to say!
0
Gotta be honest, I'm pretty into MMOs and I had a similar experience. The art style in particular doesn't really draw you in, but beyond that the mechanics were just not as enjoyable in that format. I think it works better single player.