Bunterr, this would prove that in this case it is multiplicative of it's approach, and yes, a limit would exist of a geometric series. Your statement proves that the game is doing a multiplicative approach rather than a flat additive approach.

OK, I'm gonna be honest, that's as far as I read. I do understand how multiplicative bonuses work. However, that does not refute the fact that CDR is affected by diminishing returns.

I don't mean to be a dick right now, but I just got done talking with the police so I'm not in a particularly good mood.

I would've read the rest of your reply, but I assume it isn't entirely directed towards me and, if anything, other people might benefit from the explanation.

Sorry to hear that. Basically the TLDR version is things that reduce items (like CDR) would diminish, while things that increase by a % would be the best in the end.

Bunterr, this would prove that in this case it is multiplicative of it's approach, and yes, a limit would exist of a geometric series. Your statement proves that the game is doing a multiplicative approach rather than a flat additive approach.

Here's how it works:

Just so you know: paragon -- 10% CDR would mean that 90% of the cooldown is left right?

Helm -- if 12.5% is given, that means 87.5% is remaining

8% from each ring would be at 92% remaining from each one

90% * 12.5% *92%*92% (or 0.90*0.875*0.92*0.92) = 66.7% remaining CD or (100-66.7) = 33.3% reduction.

Sorry, but discounts would behave in this fashion are logical to do so and lot of these geometric functions would reduce in this manner.

However, growth and decay behave quite differently when dealing with %s. Decay will rapidly reach a limit. And this makes sense, there is no way CDR could ever reach 100% as that would mean all cooldowns would be gone. A CDR of over 100% would have no reasonable outcome at all based on the context of the situation.

A growth would be exponential. And if elemental damage behaves the same way that the CDR example you just provided, the +elemental damage willbe vastly more powerful than the example that I listed earlier.

20% Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat + 20% Amulet + 20% Ring1+20% Ring 2 + 20% Bracer = 330% if multiplicative with +35% half of the time = 330% (half) + 446% (half) = average of 389% more damage.

While 20% Ring1 + 20% Ring 2 + 20% Amulet + 20% Bracer +35% Champion = 279% all the time with 6 piece bonus. Probably a better setup to find a ring with +20% than a RRoG to wear a Cindercoat (only 10%)

So unless the DoT effect from Firestarter = approximately 110% of your current damage (calculating based on your weapon), it would be more wise to run an elemental build compared to a 6 piece build.

Let's say you run a 1,000,000 damage build with a 2800 DPS 2 hander. 2800*460%/3 = 4300 fire damage per stack per second. How many stacks of the DoT can you effectively apply to a mob before it dies? How quickly can you stack the DoT? You would have to hit a monster multiple times per second for this to match up. And if you are using a 2h, it is unlikely that you will get more than 3 applications running at a time (4300*3 = dot damage of 13k) which will be nowhere near the 110% damage required to make it more damage.

"2. Bunterr you mentioned that you weren't sure why firestarter was reputed to be so good by people. It's because that 1.5 whirlwinds worth of damage you mentioned is added to -everything-. So eg a consecrate-shattered ground goes from 155% weapon damage per tick to 620% per tick for 10 seconds (155+465). and other spells that have damage over time type effects also add in. So EG those 5 ticks a single fist of the heavens leaves behind goes from 500% weapon damage over 5s to 2825%, at least as far as I understand the mechanic."

Justusy -- it would not make sense to behave in this way.

The description of Firestarter states that it will add a dot of 465% weapon damage over 3 seconds to any enemy that takes damage from you. Consecration would hit for it's damage, and then a DoT would be applied separately based on it's description. It sounds like another hit would be given. Based on everything that I've been reading it would hit for 155% and then apply a 465% DoT for 3 seconds.

So if you do 100 damage and you have 100% fire damage you do 200 damage. Adding a piece of gear that adds 20% more fire dmg increases you damage by 10% by that point.

Strictly speaking theres "diminishing returns" after the first piece of elemental gear you put on As for pretty much EVERY stat in the game.

So how is the 35% from Akhan's calculated? I would assume the same way then. So I would assume if you could somehow hit more than an average of 35% all the time would be a larger increase?

Meaning if you have 100 damage and 100% damage + Akhan's Champion (35%) would only be 235.

For example:

20% from Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat would be +50% damage all of the time (+85% half of the time +50% the other half, maybe more if you have CDR), compared to +35% all the time.

Let's assume that if both gear sets are +20% fire damage from both rings and amulet and bracers (+80%) and we are doing a straight 100 damage.

The first case would be +165% fire damage during Champion, and +130% without (approximately half of the time). So 265 + 230 would be an average of 248 damage over all the time.

The second case with perma Champion would be +115% or 215 damage all the time. How much damage does the DOT do? If it would not be equivalent of 33% of your damage, I see the +fire coming out ahead. Even if the Champion is multiplicative, I see the +fire damage coming out ahead. The notes say 460% of your weapon damage over 3 seconds.

Ugh, this is turning out to be too many variables for me to think about right now.

Hmmm I would like to see some numbers behind this to be honest.

It's so obvious no numbers need to be shown. You can log on and take a look for yourself. High percentages suffer from extreme diminishing returns, whereas permanent AC allows you to not only spam your abilities (pretty much anything you decide to pick), provides you with 35% increased damage 100% of the time, and if those weren't enough (trust me, they would be), you get Fire Starter, which deals insane damage.

How does it suffer from extreme diminishing returns?

How are the +% damage affixes calculated? Are the %'s additive or multiplicative?

Say you deal a straight 100 damage:

Say 20% from Magefist, 20% bracer, 20% Stone of Jordan = 60% increased damage to the damage? So this would be 160 damage done

Or is it 20% from Magefist = 120 + 20% from Stone of Jordan = 144 +20% bracer = 173?

Not familiar enough with the formula to determine what the sequence should be.

But I would assume if the elemental damage > a flat 35%, that the elemental damage would be preferred correct? How is the DOT calculated from Firestarter?

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Here's how it works:

Just so you know: paragon -- 10% CDR would mean that 90% of the cooldown is left right?

Helm -- if 12.5% is given, that means 87.5% is remaining

8% from each ring would be at 92% remaining from each one

90% * 12.5% *92%*92% (or 0.90*0.875*0.92*0.92) = 66.7% remaining CD or (100-66.7) = 33.3% reduction.

Sorry, but discounts would behave in this fashion are logical to do so and lot of these geometric functions would reduce in this manner.

However, growth and decay behave quite differently when dealing with %s. Decay will rapidly reach a limit. And this makes sense, there is no way CDR could ever reach 100% as that would mean all cooldowns would be gone. A CDR of over 100% would have no reasonable outcome at all based on the context of the situation.

A growth would be exponential. And if elemental damage behaves the same way that the CDR example you just provided, the +elemental damage willbe vastly more powerful than the example that I listed earlier.

20% Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat + 20% Amulet + 20% Ring1+20% Ring 2 + 20% Bracer = 330% if multiplicative with +35% half of the time = 330% (half) + 446% (half) = average of 389% more damage.

While 20% Ring1 + 20% Ring 2 + 20% Amulet + 20% Bracer +35% Champion = 279% all the time with 6 piece bonus. Probably a better setup to find a ring with +20% than a RRoG to wear a Cindercoat (only 10%)

So unless the DoT effect from Firestarter = approximately 110% of your current damage (calculating based on your weapon), it would be more wise to run an elemental build compared to a 6 piece build.

Let's say you run a 1,000,000 damage build with a 2800 DPS 2 hander. 2800*460%/3 = 4300 fire damage per stack per second. How many stacks of the DoT can you effectively apply to a mob before it dies? How quickly can you stack the DoT? You would have to hit a monster multiple times per second for this to match up. And if you are using a 2h, it is unlikely that you will get more than 3 applications running at a time (4300*3 = dot damage of 13k) which will be nowhere near the 110% damage required to make it more damage.

"2. Bunterr you mentioned that you weren't sure why firestarter was reputed to be so good by people. It's because that 1.5 whirlwinds worth of damage you mentioned is added to -everything-. So eg a consecrate-shattered ground goes from 155% weapon damage per tick to 620% per tick for 10 seconds (155+465). and other spells that have damage over time type effects also add in. So EG those 5 ticks a single fist of the heavens leaves behind goes from 500% weapon damage over 5s to 2825%, at least as far as I understand the mechanic."

Justusy -- it would not make sense to behave in this way.

The description of Firestarter states that it will add a dot of 465% weapon damage over 3 seconds to any enemy that takes damage from you. Consecration would hit for it's damage, and then a DoT would be applied separately based on it's description. It sounds like another hit would be given. Based on everything that I've been reading it would hit for 155% and then apply a 465% DoT for 3 seconds.

Meaning if you have 100 damage and 100% damage + Akhan's Champion (35%) would only be 235.

For example:

20% from Magefist + 20% Andarial's Visage + 10% Cindercoat would be +50% damage all of the time (+85% half of the time +50% the other half, maybe more if you have CDR), compared to +35% all the time.

Let's assume that if both gear sets are +20% fire damage from both rings and amulet and bracers (+80%) and we are doing a straight 100 damage.

The first case would be +165% fire damage during Champion, and +130% without (approximately half of the time). So 265 + 230 would be an average of 248 damage over all the time.

The second case with perma Champion would be +115% or 215 damage all the time. How much damage does the DOT do? If it would not be equivalent of 33% of your damage, I see the +fire coming out ahead. Even if the Champion is multiplicative, I see the +fire damage coming out ahead. The notes say 460% of your weapon damage over 3 seconds.

Ugh, this is turning out to be too many variables for me to think about right now.

How are the +% damage affixes calculated? Are the %'s additive or multiplicative?

Say you deal a straight 100 damage:

Say 20% from Magefist, 20% bracer, 20% Stone of Jordan = 60% increased damage to the damage? So this would be 160 damage done

Or is it 20% from Magefist = 120 + 20% from Stone of Jordan = 144 +20% bracer = 173?

Not familiar enough with the formula to determine what the sequence should be.

But I would assume if the elemental damage > a flat 35%, that the elemental damage would be preferred correct? How is the DOT calculated from Firestarter?