Balance and variety are probably the key words here.
I'm not sure if you agree with me, but see if you do.
If some of your items come from killing random trash enemies, some come from epic battles with elites and (mini/)bosses, some come from trading with friends because they upgraded or are from a different class, some come from trading with a random guy you found in a public game or general chat and you came to an agreement, and even one awesome legendary comes from breaking a barrel - and all that doesn't make your character perfect, but allows you to tackle challenges and keep searching for upgrades, the game experience feels awesome.
Now if every single piece of gear you have comes from your drops (because all items are fine tuned and you get max stat items handed to you left and right), or if from vendors/gambling/crafting, or if everything comes from trading with strangers or being handed leftovers by every friend who has only played a couple more hours than you.
That's precisely ywhen the item hunt starts to feel shitty to most people, imo.
In the current state of the game, I feel like they either don't care too much about that balance, or are struggling to achieve it. To me, they're still miles away from a rewarding item hunt experience (for reasons I stated in another thread regarding Smart Drops and overly babysitting player drops).
Zero, we did have this out in another thread, and you're right...balance and variety are the key words here. And you're not entirely wrong in your claims...
However, in all your criticisms of Smart Drops, and saying it's tuned to happen way too much, I don't see one single mention from you of the community VASTLY despising how too much RNG has made Diablo 3 an unnecessarily harrowing strugglein terms of hunting loot. Personally, yes...many people, like me, have found great enjoyment in playing "self-found", however the cold hard fact is...in Diablo 3, much of the reward of the challenge of playing self-found came from attempting to succeed with 1) drop rates of high end legendaries that are CRUSHED due to the presence of the Auction House, and 2) an oppressive amount of RNG that didn't simply make the loot hunt challenging...itobliterated 99% of gear into being absolute garbage, without a prayer of being viable in endgame...which forced people back into the Auction House...which iswhat really, as you say, "made the item hunt feel shitty to most people."
You say above..."If a player gets items from here and there, and the items don't make a character perfect, but they allow the player to keep tackling challenges and searching for upgrades, the game feels awesome." You're absolutely right! :-D Problem is...1) Players were so disheartened by the quality of loot, the most common place to "hunt loot" was the Auction House, and many AH campers didn't even like doing it,2) Players choosing to go self-found were very often not just "imperfect"...they were often unable to handle MP higher than 3 or 4, and that's when using the most common OP skill builds and item combos many don't even like using because they feel they "have to.". Look at my signature...it's no lie, on the live game, my Monk can often handle MP7 with no Life Steal or Life on Hit, and dreadful Attack Speed. He does die once in a while, but to say he hasn't gotten an upgrade in quite a few months is a pretty strong understatement. So I ask you...exactly how hard do you think a "loot hunt" should be in order to be considered rewarding? You're saying Smart Drops "babysit" players, as if a loot hunt is only rewarding when players are sifting through mountains of items for ANYTHING at all that's good.
And do you think a loot hunt should be challenging to find the RIGHT items a person WANTS, or about struggling to find anything good at all? If you answered yes to the second question, then I'm sorry you're so unhappy. From what I've seen of the community, most people want to answer yes to the first question...they want items to be powerful, and to make choices based on a wide VARIETY of strong items, as opposed to filling their packs with useless junk they don't have the heart to sift through. You're seeing Smart Drops as severely homogenizing items, that make it insanely easy to get "maxed out stats". Isee it as simplifying the basic (almost boring)things people want/need on items (like mainstat and vitality) by having them appear more often, thus making other affixes that people hardly ever look for now (like Health Globe bonus, Thorns Damage, andSkill Damage) more desirable and easier to build around. And Primary and Secondary stats being separated reduces the amount of overpowered combinations Full RNG has yielded (like quintfectas) as the only "good items" that are pretty much impossible to get to drop (but still manage to trivialize items that don't have ALL those conditions), and instead, creates the chances of affix combinations that are easier to determine whether they're meant for more offensive or defensive specs.
Bottom line, Zero...all Blizzard is doing with Smart Drops is filtering things out so players get to decide which good items they like enough to equip, instead of bombarding them with items they don't like, don't want, and aren't even good enough to use as a personal choice in endgame without feeling like they're severely gimping themselves, and it shouldn't be that way. Trust me...I want to continue defending RNG.I don't mind items having more randomness. I've obviously put up with it until now. But in the current live game, loot is abyssmal. Don't get me wrong, I have seriously enjoyed self-found...buttoo much RNG has made this game a running inside joke to a lot of people, and if something drastic, like Smart Drops,eitherisn't done or isn't done enough when the updates go live, players who hated loot before won't just shrug it off and deal with it again...they may just quit for good because they hit their last straw..
Then again, for all the talk both of us have done on this subject today, it could just be for nothing. Some players won't be happy no matter what Blizzard does to this game. They wear their rose-colored glasses and surgically pick D3 apart, using anylogic they can to find any reason why new systems won't fix the game's problems, all the while ignoring the problems that occurred with itemization in the past. Ultimately, any improvements Blizzard makes to D3 could be entirely fruitless, pointless and unsuccessful because the community refuses to give them an inch.The Diablo community has always, and likely will always, feel they know more than Blizzard does and many (not all) can't enjoy D3 anymore without overanalyzing it.
This game could become perfect tomorrow, and if that happened, people wouldn't know what to do with thsemselves, because there'd be nothing to complain about anymore.
So, like you said, let's agree to disagree, put this to bed, and you're free tohave the last word on it.
The division between "self-found" and "not self-found" for me has always been use of the Auction House (buying or selling). Now that it doesn't exist, we're now back to what was normally available to a Diablo playe: vendors, crafting, slaying, and trading.
I've mostly defined it that way as well, though I guess for me, trading means getting an item without necessarily doing much for it, or even taking gifts. Which I don't at all mean as a dig toward trading, I've said this in a previous post that I'm looking forward to trading in the expansion pack. But that's another thing self-found did to me...it made me an island that didn't even want to trade because I wanted everything I got in the game to be stuff I got in the game on my own.
And I do know how passive that makes me sound. I'm not blaming the community or Blizzard or anyone else. I did this to myself, I take responsibility, and moving forward...
I'm happy that the updates will alleviate much of the need for people to identify with self-found play and non-self-found play, and some sense of normalcy and camaraderie can hopefully be felt in the whole community, as opposed to this constant civil war that's been raging.
I remembered that I put a post about this together, last May. Interesting how things have changed ever so slightly.
Sure, I'll clarify: you're getting too caught up in labels, wondering "does this qualify as self-found".
I'm possibly the most vocal supporter of that style of play over here, but I don't really care whether the way I play "qualifies" as SF or not.
I think this passage is enlightening:
Quote fromCardinalMDM
I questioned it myself."I'm supposed to be 'finding' all my gear...but I didn't find this ring, I bought it in New Tristram from the ring and jewelry guy. This really doesn't count." And so...that ring would sit in my stash, til I figured out what its fate would be.
The only thing you're "supposed" to be doing is having fun, so when faced with a decision (like buying from vendors), the only question you should ask is: will this enhance my 'fun factor'? If the answer is 'Yes', then you shouldn't let any sort of "SF Code of Honour" get in the way of that.
/clarified
Thank you...but in all fairness, I think you're entirely missing the point of this post.
Yes, to some extent, I was concerned with what playing self-found means, as I wanted to be sure others couldn't shoot holes through it. Not to mention it was becoming a royal pain in the ass, every time I'd enter into a "self-found discussion," having to define exactly what it meant for everyone involved. "What does MY version of self-found mean?" While you think I'm getting too caught up in labels, much like every other argument that gets started about labels out there in the real world, "labels" simply make things easier to identify for other people. Hell, you and I can both "label" ourselves as simple a thing as "males," and in some circles, that means far different things than it does in other circles.
At first, self-found was a pretty easy idea...but over time, as I say above, it began to include more and more things. As the definition got watered down as much as it has, it occurred to me that most people (including myself, I'll admit that) really just wanted to be on one side of the fight or another...were they for the AH or against it? Most people who played without the AH played "self-found," but then you had the people, like you Maka, who considers themselves to be playing self-found, yet you trade with friends. To me, that doesn't classify as self-found, and while I don't care one way or another how people play, I just want others to be honest.
And of course, yet again, you take two lines I say and wildly blow it out of context. What I meant when I said "I questioned it myself" was that I saw people playing without the Auction House, and people playing "self-found," and I wanted to stick to that as strongly as possible for myself...as opposed to people defining for it me (including foregoing buying items from vendors) and doing what other people told me to do. I questioned what self-found meant to me, and at the time...news flash...it was fun. I don't know why I have to keep spelling that out for you, that I have fun with this game. Every time I post something, you somehow twist things around and unfairly lump me in with every other jerkass who spends all day on the forums, whining and crying about how Blizzard is ruining their life, and make it sound like what I've been doing hasn't been fun. It has been fun
What I'm saying by this post is that while I've had a lot of fun playing self-found, when the updates go live, I'll be having a lot more fun...mostly because I won't have to worry about what labels are being used.
I have to say...it's been fun being a "self-found" player in Diablo 3. However, I'm glad that won't have to be qualified anymore, when the updates go live.
"Why are you letting other people influence how you play?"All these labels, man......
Maka, I'd love to agree or disagree, however once again you've chosen to quote a poster AND only add four words in a sort of riddle, so...if you'd like me to offer a deeper response here, gonna need you to clarify. :-)
Taking self found waay too litteraly. But hey, if that's how you enjoy your game, then go ahead.
Well, part of my point, TwoFlower, is that playing "self-found" is a reasonable and fun way to play, on its own. However, it kinda became a movement and a sub-community, many of whose members, as you say, took the idea way too literally.
I did that myself, I'm not denying my own responsibility in that. I'm just dedicated enough to stick to the literal definition as closely as possible, because since everyone defines it in their own way, lots of people can say they play "self-found," as it makes them a part of that community and that side of the argument, but ultimately the definition gets a bit watered down. For instance, some people say they play "self-found" but they trade with friends. So really, they're not playing "self-found," they're playing "AH-free." I'm sure you could probably find a way to say you FOUND some great bargain on the Auction House by your SELF, so technically, you also play self-found. But obviously, that's not what the idea is perpetuating.
Basically what I'm getting at here...as I said in the post...I've enjoyed playing self-found, and I stuck to it as closely as possible as long as I could...and I'm happy that I myself (independent of any pressure from any community or subcommunity) don't feel like limiting myself like that anymore. That's all.
The fact that you felt some form of guilt for potentially increasing your characters power by purchasing randomly-generating loot from an in-game NPC vendor ... well, to me, that's a sign that the community is controlling what you feel is fun, and that's a damned shame.
What I am saying is that people shouldn't be playing self-found because it gives them better street cred, or whatever. The whole idea that "my way is right, everyone else is cheating" is what spurs on this attitude, though, and it has to stop. We have to reject that.
Neither of us should have to feel that how we're playing is less-legitimate based on the other persons standards.
Like I said above, I don't necessarily feel the community is/was controlling what I feel is fun beyond seeing people play without the AH, and seeing the name of "self-found" attached to it. As shown here...
I'm not necessarily letting other people influence me when I'm making that choice myself. I didn't see people foregoing vendor buys and jumped on that bandwagon. I questioned it myself."I'm supposed to be 'finding' all my gear...but I didn't find this ring, I bought it in New Tristram from the ring and jewelry guy. This really doesn't count." And so...that ring would sit in my stash, til I figured out what its fate would be.
That is a question I legitimately asked myself, no one harassed me into asking it, it's a way I wanted to play. My point behind this post was to say...I enjoyed it before, but as the game is making a lot of positive changes in really healthy directions...I'm happy I don't feel compelled to feel that strongly about playing "self-found" anymore. I was proud to be part of that, and it's likely affected how I feel about other games...but admittedly, I did take it too far, as I'm sure many others have.
As for the "my way is right, everyone else is cheating," I do agree with you. People shouldn't do that. Then again, when people have used the Auction House exclusively to get every piece of gear they've ever acquired in this game, and repeatedly post about how unsatisfying the game is and how it's too easy and how Blizzard are morons...they may not be "cheating," but clearly THEIR way of playing the game went awry and THEY should do something different. I mean, that's been my biggest argument in favor of self-found play...
People who camp in the AH constantly complain about the game, they're constantly miserable, and despite those half-second bursts of joy they get from getting a new piece of gear, it never lasts more than a few minutes as they refuse to admit they bought their way to roflstomping. Meanwhile...I struggled for all my upgrades and I enjoyed every minute, yet you ask most AH campers and they'll tell you I was playing the game wrong. Aggravating, to say the least.
TLDR: Despite vendor item quality being not terribly appealing in endgame, playing self-found actually made me feel guilty for buying items from vendors. Even at lower levels, when better gear is needed to rise up in difficulties. After playing only a few days worth of the Patch 2.0.1 PTR over the weekend, I feel that guilt very much lifted.
I have to say...it's been fun being a "self-found" player in Diablo 3. However, I'm glad that won't have to be qualified anymore, when the updates go live.
On the whole, I think that most players who were proud to dub themselves self-found, during what I hope will be referred to as "the Auction House era of D3," did want the same boosts to item and loot quality that everyone else wanted. But many also simply wanted a basic boost to difficulty, and to push themselves to challenging limits. Even though (loot-wise) much of that challenge was artificial as a result of item quality adjusted due to the Auction House, it was still fun to gear up with as little help beyond "finding loot" as possible, if not zero help at all.
However, that line got pushed farther and farther with time, and when it began to encompass things as traditional to ARPG loot progression as buying items from vendors, in my opinion, it went a bit too far. Not that I've seen tons of people en masse get criticized for buying from vendors to gear up, but I know there were people in the self-found/ironborn movement that didn't do it just because it didn't fall under the "finding my own gear from monsters" umbrella.
And in the scope of fun ARPG activities, that's kinda sad. I mean, for all the ways people say they'll have no use for their gold in the expansion or Patch 2.0.1, I rarely hear people suggest buying gear from vendors. Granted, on the live game, vendor item quality isn't great, but it can still help...and given that vendors typically have something of a ceiling for how good their gear can be in endgame, it's really not a cheap or game destroying mechanic to take advantage of when their wares are still viable.
Playing self-found has been very engaging and challenging for me, however I won't forgive how it went far enough that it made me feel guilty for buying items from vendors because it MIGHT make my characters LESS "self-found." I know, the typical response is likely, "why are you letting other people influence how you play?" I'm not necessarily letting other people influence me when I'm making that choice myself. I didn't see people foregoing vendor buys and jumped on that bandwagon. I questioned it myself.
"I'm supposed to be 'finding' all my gear...but I didn't find this ring, I bought it in New Tristram from the ring and jewelry guy. This really doesn't count." And so...that ring would sit in my stash, til I figured out what its fate would be.
I'm sure it sounds extremely weird, but...I'm glad that I've managed to break away from the "self-found" mindset, full of conditions and defenses and qualifications..."well, I'm mostly self-found, some of my stuff is crafted, and I traded for a few tomes to make some of the gems, but all in all, blah blah blah." I do still respect self-found play, but the way it's manifested in D3, and how a lot of people (including myself) play that way due to the Auction House being way TOO easy, can be just as unhealthy in some people as buying godly pieces from the AH and then filling the forums with vitriol over the game being too easy, or loot being trash, etc.
I'm glad that very soon, players in this community won't be identifying themselves based on whether they bought their gear or killed monsters for their gear...they can instead identify based on what their build approach is, what they're searching for, what their character is based on in mythology, what build they're trying to work on/toward, etc.
Anyway...just sharing some feelings I had. Carry on. :-)
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I've mostly defined it that way as well, though I guess for me, trading means getting an item without necessarily doing much for it, or even taking gifts. Which I don't at all mean as a dig toward trading, I've said this in a previous post that I'm looking forward to trading in the expansion pack. But that's another thing self-found did to me...it made me an island that didn't even want to trade because I wanted everything I got in the game to be stuff I got in the game on my own.
And I do know how passive that makes me sound. I'm not blaming the community or Blizzard or anyone else. I did this to myself, I take responsibility, and moving forward...
I'm happy that the updates will alleviate much of the need for people to identify with self-found play and non-self-found play, and some sense of normalcy and camaraderie can hopefully be felt in the whole community, as opposed to this constant civil war that's been raging.
I remembered that I put a post about this together, last May. Interesting how things have changed ever so slightly.
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/31759-what-does-self-found-mean-to-you
Maka, I'd love to agree or disagree, however once again you've chosen to quote a poster AND only add four words in a sort of riddle, so...if you'd like me to offer a deeper response here, gonna need you to clarify. :-)
Well, part of my point, TwoFlower, is that playing "self-found" is a reasonable and fun way to play, on its own. However, it kinda became a movement and a sub-community, many of whose members, as you say, took the idea way too literally.
I did that myself, I'm not denying my own responsibility in that. I'm just dedicated enough to stick to the literal definition as closely as possible, because since everyone defines it in their own way, lots of people can say they play "self-found," as it makes them a part of that community and that side of the argument, but ultimately the definition gets a bit watered down. For instance, some people say they play "self-found" but they trade with friends. So really, they're not playing "self-found," they're playing "AH-free." I'm sure you could probably find a way to say you FOUND some great bargain on the Auction House by your SELF, so technically, you also play self-found. But obviously, that's not what the idea is perpetuating.
Basically what I'm getting at here...as I said in the post...I've enjoyed playing self-found, and I stuck to it as closely as possible as long as I could...and I'm happy that I myself (independent of any pressure from any community or subcommunity) don't feel like limiting myself like that anymore. That's all.
Like I said above, I don't necessarily feel the community is/was controlling what I feel is fun beyond seeing people play without the AH, and seeing the name of "self-found" attached to it. As shown here...
That is a question I legitimately asked myself, no one harassed me into asking it, it's a way I wanted to play. My point behind this post was to say...I enjoyed it before, but as the game is making a lot of positive changes in really healthy directions...I'm happy I don't feel compelled to feel that strongly about playing "self-found" anymore. I was proud to be part of that, and it's likely affected how I feel about other games...but admittedly, I did take it too far, as I'm sure many others have.
As for the "my way is right, everyone else is cheating," I do agree with you. People shouldn't do that. Then again, when people have used the Auction House exclusively to get every piece of gear they've ever acquired in this game, and repeatedly post about how unsatisfying the game is and how it's too easy and how Blizzard are morons...they may not be "cheating," but clearly THEIR way of playing the game went awry and THEY should do something different. I mean, that's been my biggest argument in favor of self-found play...
People who camp in the AH constantly complain about the game, they're constantly miserable, and despite those half-second bursts of joy they get from getting a new piece of gear, it never lasts more than a few minutes as they refuse to admit they bought their way to roflstomping. Meanwhile...I struggled for all my upgrades and I enjoyed every minute, yet you ask most AH campers and they'll tell you I was playing the game wrong. Aggravating, to say the least.
TLDR: Despite vendor item quality being not terribly appealing in endgame, playing self-found actually made me feel guilty for buying items from vendors. Even at lower levels, when better gear is needed to rise up in difficulties. After playing only a few days worth of the Patch 2.0.1 PTR over the weekend, I feel that guilt very much lifted.
I have to say...it's been fun being a "self-found" player in Diablo 3. However, I'm glad that won't have to be qualified anymore, when the updates go live.
On the whole, I think that most players who were proud to dub themselves self-found, during what I hope will be referred to as "the Auction House era of D3," did want the same boosts to item and loot quality that everyone else wanted. But many also simply wanted a basic boost to difficulty, and to push themselves to challenging limits. Even though (loot-wise) much of that challenge was artificial as a result of item quality adjusted due to the Auction House, it was still fun to gear up with as little help beyond "finding loot" as possible, if not zero help at all.
However, that line got pushed farther and farther with time, and when it began to encompass things as traditional to ARPG loot progression as buying items from vendors, in my opinion, it went a bit too far. Not that I've seen tons of people en masse get criticized for buying from vendors to gear up, but I know there were people in the self-found/ironborn movement that didn't do it just because it didn't fall under the "finding my own gear from monsters" umbrella.
And in the scope of fun ARPG activities, that's kinda sad. I mean, for all the ways people say they'll have no use for their gold in the expansion or Patch 2.0.1, I rarely hear people suggest buying gear from vendors. Granted, on the live game, vendor item quality isn't great, but it can still help...and given that vendors typically have something of a ceiling for how good their gear can be in endgame, it's really not a cheap or game destroying mechanic to take advantage of when their wares are still viable.
Playing self-found has been very engaging and challenging for me, however I won't forgive how it went far enough that it made me feel guilty for buying items from vendors because it MIGHT make my characters LESS "self-found." I know, the typical response is likely, "why are you letting other people influence how you play?" I'm not necessarily letting other people influence me when I'm making that choice myself. I didn't see people foregoing vendor buys and jumped on that bandwagon. I questioned it myself.
"I'm supposed to be 'finding' all my gear...but I didn't find this ring, I bought it in New Tristram from the ring and jewelry guy. This really doesn't count." And so...that ring would sit in my stash, til I figured out what its fate would be.
I'm sure it sounds extremely weird, but...I'm glad that I've managed to break away from the "self-found" mindset, full of conditions and defenses and qualifications..."well, I'm mostly self-found, some of my stuff is crafted, and I traded for a few tomes to make some of the gems, but all in all, blah blah blah." I do still respect self-found play, but the way it's manifested in D3, and how a lot of people (including myself) play that way due to the Auction House being way TOO easy, can be just as unhealthy in some people as buying godly pieces from the AH and then filling the forums with vitriol over the game being too easy, or loot being trash, etc.
I'm glad that very soon, players in this community won't be identifying themselves based on whether they bought their gear or killed monsters for their gear...they can instead identify based on what their build approach is, what they're searching for, what their character is based on in mythology, what build they're trying to work on/toward, etc.
Anyway...just sharing some feelings I had. Carry on. :-)