What I think is happening is that for fire and forget DOT spells like Blizzard and Hydra the attacks happen at the same frequency but the game utilizes your DPS to determine the damage done each tick, not your weapon damage. So in that way IAS is factored in but does not actually increase the tick rate.
However, should you ever have a choice between two weapons with the same damage but one that attacks faster, you should choose the faster one because over a period of 10 seconds you will still end up with more damage even with using lower damage modifer spells.
I'd just like to point out that if two weapons have the same damage and one attacks faster it obviously is a higher dps weapon. Using a slow weapon with less dps over a fast weapon with more dps will only work if the difference is small (less than 20-30% difference, rough math) and, of course, we're talking about a long period of time.
In fact i have used a fast weapon combo during most of my inferno progress because i got a high damage one -hand and an awesome off-hand. The difference was just too big. Even using Astral Presence and Cold Blooded i was still running out of ap during long casts, like during Azmodan and Belial. It was still a dps gain using the 1h because the damage was just much higher. When i got a slow weapon that could match that damage i started using Disintegrate (not viable before, getting out of ap in 4secs) and the 280% damage rune for Ray of Frost and that's a dps gain.
I heard a rumor about a bug, that Ray of Frost was never criting (i think other spells aswell) and in fact i haven't seen it crit like...ever, even with 10+ % crit chance. Can anyone confirm this?
Yes. Is there ever a situation where you'd actually care about this?
Quite a few. Those who are actually progressing in Inferno can tell. Even if you're not, you should know how your class works.
And it also applies for Disintegrate.
You're right. But I'm not sure how that is different. You have a static regen, and casting faster drains faster. Makes sense to me.
Unless you're arguing that it shouldn't be like this? Maybe I missed the point.
Maybe? You sure missed the point.
The expected behavior of 'cast faster lose resource faster' would be linear. That is, if you double your speed you're expending your resource twice as much. It's not what happens with channeled spells for the wizard tho, and that's what we're talking about. You double your speed you're spending your resource almost 3 times faster, due to how channeled spells work in correlation to how arcane power works. It's not always like that, the behavior can vary wildly. Is that the same as 'cast faster lose resource faster'? Not really. Is that important? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a fact about game mechanics, some like to know these kind of things.
So I show that attack speed has the same dps gains and scaling as base damage for your example, contradicting your premise that it behaves strangely or unfavorably, and you call it stupid and attack the messenger? So, this conversation is going nowhere. GL in your little world.
And since when the whole discussion was about attack speed? It's about the relation between attack speed and arcane power for channeled spells.
I never took as a premise that attack speed behaves strangely or unfavorably, rather the relation we were discussing the whole time.
You didn't even understand it? Talk about strange little worlds.
So in conclusion, the same thing Blues stated months ago: Attack speed increases the pace of you combat, increasing resource gains(typically), and values certain stats (ex: flat damage buff) more heavily then slow AS builds.
So all this shit is to say attack speed makes combat faster, favors +dmg and resource gain? Really? I mean, REALLY? Are you...
...special?
You don't have a model for what you do during filler time, you don't list what ability you would use, etc.
In fact we did. If you actually read the posts it's there. I had the trouble of showing how much dps you do when you can't sustain RoF for long and have to fill with a signature.
"What about the durations!? The slower weapons let you use your ability for longer!" And I say, "So what?".
No. The slower the weapons the more sustainable is using a more expensive version. In this case a more expensive version means higher dps.
You didn't refute anything. You didn't refute the assumptions, you didn't even mentioned them. And you didn't refute the math. You just raised a point that was raised before (and in a more intelligent way), which is really a point of someone who could not understand really really simple concepts such as: if you can sustain a more expensive/more dps version you gain dps.
It's really pitiful when somebody dumb as hell tries to appear intelligent. Sir, using "sophisticated" words such as assumptions, modelling, controlled variable, etc, doesn't make your argument any more logical or intelligent. It just tries to cover that what you're saying is absolutely obvious or dumb.
ITT: Bad arguments against flawed refutations of incorrect assumptions using inconsistent math.
Not sure even where to start...
Start showing any incorrect assumptions or any inconsistent math.
The only assumptions we based ourselves are:
1-Arcane power regenerate every second, this regeneration is not effected by attack speed.
2-When channeling a spell like Ray of Frost or Disintegration you spend Arcane Power every cicle, not every second. It is affected by attack speed.
The rest is a consequence.
Both "assumptions" have been tested over and over on beta. And confirmed. (Actually there are a few more interesting details about channeled spells that weren't mentioned)
The consequences also were tested and confirmed.
I'm really curious to hear. (So many really dumb people...)
Whats not taken into account is the Additional 70 AP that S2 will continue to generate over the 6.7 seconds, and more importantly the added damage and AP S2 can gain by casting thier signiture in the 6.7 seconds gained.
In both cases Damage per AP should be the same, but a faster weapon will allow more Signiture filler, and therefore additional damage and AP return (which means even more damage).
We already proved a few posts ago that dps is a lot lower when you fill cast time with signature. Please read the whole thing.
@Glowyrm, i wouldn't be so sure about the "you can't sit and cast 10 seconds on inferno". You'll find very different situations. Sometimes you won't be able to sit for long, you'll have to move to avoid or kite. Sometimes you will be able to sit for a very long time, have no doubt about it.
Imagine you're doing an elite/boss with a group. They have a lot of hp, it's a long fight. Some fights will require movement, others not so much. When you're in a fight where you have the chance to cast a lot while the enemy is busy with your teamates, well, you better do a lot of dmg, the most dmg you can of the situation, right?
Not only in groups. Playing solo you pop Diamond Skin and cast for 6seconds, you can pop Mirror Image and cast for 7seconds, etc etc.
Also note that with a good amount of defense (armor, resistances, health, etc) and lifesteal you'll be able to sit and cast while mobs hit you, at least when they're not doing using some nasty ability.
If you dish a lot of dmg, and fast, you'll be able to benefit quite a bit from lifesteal and life on hit.
That reminds me of an interesting question. Ray of Frost as you folks might notice is divided into minor ticks. You don't actually land a single big 215% hit every cicle, you actually land various ticks that sum 215% over that period of time. Question is: does +life on hit applies for every tick or just for the whole cicle? Even if it's only for each cicle, you'll be able to recover a lot of health with a high attack speed. Now if actually procs for every single tick...you'll recover a ridiculous amount of health every second while casting rof.
You can reliably get up to around 30AP per crit, and it's also fairly attainable to get 50% crit chance as well.
So you can safely increase your attack speed to just over 2.4APS and still have neutral AP use.
You are perfectly correct, except in the fairly attainable part. Remember that the best gear possible will be lvl63 gear obtained in Inferno Act3-4. I wouldn't expect such huge amounts of ap per crit on earlier gear. I would expect 20-25 in a perfect act2 gear, 15-20in a perfect act1gear and 10-15 in a perfect inferno gear. And i also wouldn't expect such a huge crit chance early on.
Let's say you have a more modest set. With 15ap per crit and 33% crit chance. With that gear you could sustain a neutral ap cast of the weaker ray of frost, that deals 215%dmg and costs 12ap. But the 20ap one would be pretty unbearable.
Now note that if you have 2.4 speed and you can spam ray of frost you're dealing a ridiculously huge amount of single target damage, even with the initial inferno gear, even more with the final.
Initial inferno gear, 215% ray of frost spam:
2.4 x 215%= 516% weapon damage per sec
Final inferno gear, 280% ray of frost spam:
2.4 x 280%= 672% weapon damage per sec
HUGE numbers, and we're not applying any other bonus damage, like passives and such.
Yes, arcane power on crit is pretty powerful. And yes, you can have a really fast set that still works with ray of frost. You just gotta make the numbers work for you.
... but keep in mind that you have Signature spells that are not AP dependent (or in some cases even restore AP or proc additional effects).
If you read some posts back you'll see that using signature spells is quite a dps loss.
On the 2h vs 1h i wouldn't take the 1h+orb victory for granted. Both can be quite good, it depends quite a bit on what items you actually have, gems, build etc.
Why? Because being able to dump your AP faster before having to move will allow you to fully utilize your regen.
I really doubt most boss encounters are going to allow you to sit there and channel a spell onto a boss for a significant amount of time.
Remember that it takes at least 8 secs to regen from 0ap while running. 8 secs running is...a lot.
I think an optimal setup would be ~ one that you could cast ray of frost for 12-15 seconds before running out. Above 15 you may be ap capped while moving, dps loss, bellow this you may be ap starved while standing.
Also remember the wizard can pop mirror image and cast for a while, pop diamond skin and cast for a while. As usual, you want to minimize movement and be able to stand and cast.
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Could be...
In fact i have used a fast weapon combo during most of my inferno progress because i got a high damage one -hand and an awesome off-hand. The difference was just too big. Even using Astral Presence and Cold Blooded i was still running out of ap during long casts, like during Azmodan and Belial. It was still a dps gain using the 1h because the damage was just much higher. When i got a slow weapon that could match that damage i started using Disintegrate (not viable before, getting out of ap in 4secs) and the 280% damage rune for Ray of Frost and that's a dps gain.
I heard a rumor about a bug, that Ray of Frost was never criting (i think other spells aswell) and in fact i haven't seen it crit like...ever, even with 10+ % crit chance. Can anyone confirm this?
And it also applies for Disintegrate.
Maybe? You sure missed the point.
The expected behavior of 'cast faster lose resource faster' would be linear. That is, if you double your speed you're expending your resource twice as much. It's not what happens with channeled spells for the wizard tho, and that's what we're talking about. You double your speed you're spending your resource almost 3 times faster, due to how channeled spells work in correlation to how arcane power works. It's not always like that, the behavior can vary wildly. Is that the same as 'cast faster lose resource faster'? Not really. Is that important? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a fact about game mechanics, some like to know these kind of things.
Learn to read. Learn to understand.
I never took as a premise that attack speed behaves strangely or unfavorably, rather the relation we were discussing the whole time.
You didn't even understand it? Talk about strange little worlds.
So all this shit is to say attack speed makes combat faster, favors +dmg and resource gain? Really? I mean, REALLY? Are you...
...special?
In fact we did. If you actually read the posts it's there. I had the trouble of showing how much dps you do when you can't sustain RoF for long and have to fill with a signature.
No. The slower the weapons the more sustainable is using a more expensive version. In this case a more expensive version means higher dps.
You didn't refute anything. You didn't refute the assumptions, you didn't even mentioned them. And you didn't refute the math. You just raised a point that was raised before (and in a more intelligent way), which is really a point of someone who could not understand really really simple concepts such as: if you can sustain a more expensive/more dps version you gain dps.
It's really pitiful when somebody dumb as hell tries to appear intelligent. Sir, using "sophisticated" words such as assumptions, modelling, controlled variable, etc, doesn't make your argument any more logical or intelligent. It just tries to cover that what you're saying is absolutely obvious or dumb.
Start showing any incorrect assumptions or any inconsistent math.
The only assumptions we based ourselves are:
1-Arcane power regenerate every second, this regeneration is not effected by attack speed.
2-When channeling a spell like Ray of Frost or Disintegration you spend Arcane Power every cicle, not every second. It is affected by attack speed.
The rest is a consequence.
Both "assumptions" have been tested over and over on beta. And confirmed. (Actually there are a few more interesting details about channeled spells that weren't mentioned)
The consequences also were tested and confirmed.
I'm really curious to hear. (So many really dumb people...)
We already proved a few posts ago that dps is a lot lower when you fill cast time with signature. Please read the whole thing.
Imagine you're doing an elite/boss with a group. They have a lot of hp, it's a long fight. Some fights will require movement, others not so much. When you're in a fight where you have the chance to cast a lot while the enemy is busy with your teamates, well, you better do a lot of dmg, the most dmg you can of the situation, right?
Not only in groups. Playing solo you pop Diamond Skin and cast for 6seconds, you can pop Mirror Image and cast for 7seconds, etc etc.
Also note that with a good amount of defense (armor, resistances, health, etc) and lifesteal you'll be able to sit and cast while mobs hit you, at least when they're not doing using some nasty ability.
If you dish a lot of dmg, and fast, you'll be able to benefit quite a bit from lifesteal and life on hit.
That reminds me of an interesting question. Ray of Frost as you folks might notice is divided into minor ticks. You don't actually land a single big 215% hit every cicle, you actually land various ticks that sum 215% over that period of time. Question is: does +life on hit applies for every tick or just for the whole cicle? Even if it's only for each cicle, you'll be able to recover a lot of health with a high attack speed. Now if actually procs for every single tick...you'll recover a ridiculous amount of health every second while casting rof.
Let's say you have a more modest set. With 15ap per crit and 33% crit chance. With that gear you could sustain a neutral ap cast of the weaker ray of frost, that deals 215%dmg and costs 12ap. But the 20ap one would be pretty unbearable.
Now note that if you have 2.4 speed and you can spam ray of frost you're dealing a ridiculously huge amount of single target damage, even with the initial inferno gear, even more with the final.
Initial inferno gear, 215% ray of frost spam:
2.4 x 215%= 516% weapon damage per sec
Final inferno gear, 280% ray of frost spam:
2.4 x 280%= 672% weapon damage per sec
HUGE numbers, and we're not applying any other bonus damage, like passives and such.
Yes, arcane power on crit is pretty powerful. And yes, you can have a really fast set that still works with ray of frost. You just gotta make the numbers work for you.
Thank you for the elucidation Alouu
On the 2h vs 1h i wouldn't take the 1h+orb victory for granted. Both can be quite good, it depends quite a bit on what items you actually have, gems, build etc.
I think an optimal setup would be ~ one that you could cast ray of frost for 12-15 seconds before running out. Above 15 you may be ap capped while moving, dps loss, bellow this you may be ap starved while standing.
Also remember the wizard can pop mirror image and cast for a while, pop diamond skin and cast for a while. As usual, you want to minimize movement and be able to stand and cast.