I'm through with even trying to rationalize with you. You simply keep quoting me and oversimplifying every response and then apply all kinds of absolute statements to what I said that I never even intoned. Arguing with you is like throwing cotton balls at some obtuse wall. Anyone with an open mind will be able to read through this thread and others and clearly see who is right and who is a ranting and irrational recycling plant.
Enjoy yourself, I'm through with you.
Oh well, I guess failling to agree with your same 2 arguments which I gave multiple reasons why I disagreed with each, and calling you out on blatant lies multiple times makes me closed minded.
Just out of curiosity though, did you by any chance vote for Obama?
Sure, theres glitch rushing, and yeah, thats a glitch, I couldnt care less either way if it was or wasnt removed in the patch.
Hey I said that a while back. You said...
You're already promoting one extreme- seeding past everything (in your open support of both rushing and grushing)-
I'm clearly not promoting glitch rushing, I admitted its a glitch, and it wouldnt bother me at all to see it go. I never promoted glitch rushing, but yes, I do support regular rushes that require you to level to at least 24 to do your norm ancients/baal, do either some norm baaling or a bit of leveling in nm, and some nm baaling or hell grinding to be able to get to hell baal. I support it, becuase rushing is simply having someone help you get through the game quicker and more efficiently. Even if blizzard tried to limit it by, yes I'm going to use an EXTREME EXAMPLE, making you have to completely clear each area, people will still rush. I'll just have a friend with an auradin walk me through normal and nightmare, and switch to a more capable build to kill crap for me in hell. Why, simply because at the very least killing in hell drops better gear and I'd much rather spend time in areas where I might get something then doing the same thing in areas where all crap is going to drop.
I think you should want to kill the majority of monsters in every area to proceed. That lack of appeal is the game flaw I've been saying over and over again but, once again, you keep ignoring it.
Why would I ever want to kill anything in normal or nightmare when I can kill the same stuff in hell and get better loot? I kill in normal until I am good enough to kill in nm, kill in nm until I can handle hell, then kill in hell. I'm not gonna waste any more time killing lower level crap then I absolutely have to. Besides, it takes a hell of a lot longer to go from 95-99 then it takes to go from 1-94, seems like it was intentionally designed for you to spend more time in the harder difficulties.
That's a very poor point. A game shouldn't have to rely on outside sources to help people figure out how things run inside it- that's the developers being lazy. It's great that they are there, of course, and this site is one of them, it should not be necessary, however, to go to these sites to figure things out. The game doesn't even offer an in-game browser or encyclopedia for any of these information sites, so you need to interrupt your play experience to get to any of this stuff.
Good point, blizzard should start a mailing list to mail people supplemental instruction manuals, becuase forcing you to hit alt+tab to look something up real quick is practically a crime.
It makes no sense, whatsoever, to hold all players to the same expectation of a priori knowledge
Hey, good point. Guess I was one of those lucky people who was born knowing everything about this game. Oh wait, no I wasn't, but I guess I enjoyed a game that required me to think to get good at. You can learn everything you need to know about the game by reading a few stickied post on the bnet forums, scanning the arreat summit site, asking players in game questions, and *gasp* doing some experimenting on your own.
Good argument.
Yeah it was, calling people on blatant lies is great.
Ah, so this is the root of the problem. You're essentially nostaligcally set against anything to be added in the patch. No matter what Bashiok says, you will be a complainer. Got it.
Nah, I'd be completely for it if he said they were releasing some new gear that was aimed at making some crappy builds more useful or make more potential variations of builds that are already useful, or if some crappy skills were tweaked to actually be useful, that would also open up more build options. I'd also be more then happy if he said botting and duping would be elimated. I'd also love if the "content patch" contained some new areas and bosses to pwn. Fixing desynching would probably give me an all out erection. If your going to make personal attacks against me at least make them somewhat realistic.
It's actually very simple.
Oh, please explain how when they are all identical as far as looks go when your sitting in a channel.
No, it wouldn't. You would still have hundreds of players making hundreds of the same games and running them the exact same way.
No you wouldn't. People generally bot when the are afk, and do other things like pvp or trade when they arent afk. Nobodies gonna do manual baal runs 18 hours a day just because they can't bot anymore.
I have never seen a Blizzard Sorceress take on a Hell Baal run with any efficacy at all. The room, itself, is, by default, filled with Cold Immunes, and Lister the Tormenter often spawns with a dual-immune featuring cold immunity.
Way to chop up a sentence into 2 and 3 word quotes to pull out out of context. I was saying if you were in baal game with 3 hammerdins and a blizzard sorc that can pretty much insta kill stuff while spamming the spawn point at throne and your on a build that doesnt do much aoe damage are you going to bother even pretending to do anything?
This is assuming 1) that stats and gear do not vary between PvM and PvP, 2) you will be allowed full-skill respec, and 3) people will not get rushed. If people get rushed, there would be no need to do what you said since they will not have to be the ones killing the scant few monsters to accomplish the quests.
1. For a lot of builds they don't.
2. Dear god we can only hope this never happens.
3. Would this really change that I'd still want to do baal/chaos runs as a pvm build then a pvp build?
Wow, a choice between two shields, big customization there.
I know, I know, I'm about to put words in your mouth again so I'll phrase it as a question.
Yeah, way to pull one tiny example of a plethora of examples I made to make this argument. Go ahead and find 2 wind druids, only gear theres almost 100% certainty they both have on is enigma and arachnid. Head gear might be shako, circlet, or a pelt, wield could be spirit, suicide branch, wizzie, hoto, shield could be spirit of monarch, rings could be sojs/bks or rare fcr rings, etc... Sure, your somewhat limited with character customization, but everyone being a cookie cutter clone like you keep insinuating is far from the truth.
And what do the vast majority of these thousands of clones wear? Exactly what all the builds tell them to wear- exactly what is most effective and overpowered- the commonly accepted gear, all predictable and easily spotted.
Sorry boss, there is really no 1 best gear set up for any build. Also, how exactly do you tell the difference between a spirit in a zak shield skin and a hoz? Can you really tell the difference between a barb wielding an eth death cleaver and an ebotd? Didn't think so.
I never said that, I said that each remake would essentially be the same, which means that yes, tweaks would be made, but overall gameplay would remain the same. You make a Fire Sorceress and pound points in to Fireball but completely disregard a synergy (ha ha, there we go again, synergies locking people in to specific builds), and so you remake that character and invest in the synergy, as well. Gameplay doesn't change. Nothing interesting happens. You're still spending hours of your time- wasting it, even- by either doing the same exact quests over or getting rushed and grinding (or rather, letting another player grind for you while you leech everything and do no work). Gameplay doesn't change for your character- your still using the same or very similar base skills. No variation.
Could uh, just keep the one you had and screw around with a different build.
I shouldn't have to do this. Diablo II was designed at first as oriented for single player with the addition of multiplayer until all this lame junk got patched in. I should not have to rely on other players for this.
Every class is more then capable of beating hell solo if this is your goal. You could make a dual ele sorc for 2 elements worth of damage, and a merc that has some phys damage. Carry around some randoms with lower res and amp damage charges and your more then capable of beating the game.
The only reason really to make a narrow build is to maximize your damage for group efficiency or pvp killing power, so who really cares if they aren't always as capable of solo play as a character designed for it.
Oh, no. I said "thriving as it has always been" which means it is at an equal level with its past, which means no digression has taken place, not to say that it is, itself, particularly thriving or comparing it to any other standard with the use of the word "thriving".
Nah, there used to be more people playing, guess you just cant pick the bots out. Those annoying bastards that join your games at random and spam crap about item shops, are bots. Those guys that do 800 baal runs a day, are also bots. Anyone that makes random games and runs the same couple unique monsters over and over and leaves either right after you pk him or right when you hostile, is also a bot.
Grinding areas with imbalanced exp rewards in a systematic progression (Tristram > Tombs > Baal > NM Baal > ... ) as a means to an end (to get rushed and skip the content) is what I consider to be rushing as well, because it is not something you can do on your own and it is not how the game is meant to be played, as common sense would imply. So if they balance the experience gains, and it truly takes you months to get to a high level, then we will see who will be crying about the game being too hardcore. Certainly not me.
Why can't you do any of these runs on your own? Is taking advantage of a feature that grants more exp for being in a game with other people and doing it bad? I mean, we wouldn't want to discourage team play in online play would we?
As far as rebalancing the game to truly take months to level...is that a joke? Even if they made monsters drop tiny exp amounts so this did happen, what would it accomplish, you'd have to do 1000 trist runs instead of 10? Even if they fixed these imbalanced areas as you describe them, that would be a fantastic game design to require you to clear act 1 norm 19 times before you can think about taking on act 2 lol. Then, when you got to a level where you want to do some hell baals, it'd take months to get 1 level, awesome. That would totally make the game more hardcore! Just wondering, but did you know the game already has a hardcore option, and its a lot more hardcore then this crap lol.
You have conflicting arguments here. The second paragraph is a pointed and powerful argument FOR respecing. Leveling some builds absolutely sucks, all experienced players know this. Adding respecs enables people to more easily play the game the way it was meant to be played, without relying on grushes or power leveling to make the character they want.
Nah, its a multiplayer game, make friends and get help. You don't have to grush and power level to build harder to level builds, you can just find some friends doing a playthrough and follow along. Some builds have more of a coolness factor to them since they are harder to make. Most of such builds are basically pvp builds anyhow, so if you make them uber at pvp and uber at pvm, then what becomes the use of builds that are more pvm oriented?
Adding respecs without fixing grush, uber leveling and bots is perhaps not the best idea as good players will find a way to exploit it with whatever class/spec makes it into 1.13 as overpowered. However, if they do manage to curtail bots and stop grushing, respecing would make playing the game through a lot more fun as you wouldn't have to suffer through being useless until your skills & gear become available by level.
Grushing would be an easy fix if they wanted to. I dont have very much faith in blizzard to fix the botting though, seems to me like each ladders just been more hacked then the previous. Like some other dude already mentioned, and its not going to be a big suprise when it happens, people will just bot level 99 on a pvm build and respec to something more pvp oriented that couldnt handle functioning as a bot. Way to implement a change that rewards botting even more blizzard, I applaud you.
Back to the thing with some characters sucking at pvm and why I like it, how many level 99 auradins did you see last ladder vs level 99 hammerdins? If you were to actually level an auardin to 99 it'd be cool as hell, since you'd probably be the only one to do it on ladder, but after respeccing it wont mean anything. It'll just mean you fully botted a hammerdin, respecced, and leveled up another character to run as your hdin bot. Fixing bots and duping would be infinitely more beneficial to the game then respecs. Bet you won't see either fixed.
Yes, if you want to take it to extremes, since that's what you seem locked in to arguing in.
There is a huge difference between helping you through an area and killing everything for you so that you get quests done with no work invested.
Well I don't see where your coming from when you say having a higher level friend help me out is a flaw in the game, but that I shouldnt have to kill a majority of monsters in an area to proceed. What should I have to walk from entrance to exit of each area on my own only killing whats on my way, because clearing the area would be extreme, and having help to speed past it would be extreme?
That was never suggested.
Way to oversimplify it and cleverly place negative connotations on it. My argument was that is is unfair to expect all players to have the same exact foreknowledge and thus expect even the thousands of new players to conform to this predisposition of assumed knowledge base. It is not logical or feasible from a game development standpoint to assume that at all. The game offers no help what-so-ever in showing you the features of the game, advice on building your first build, or anything else that could be remotely considered user-friendly.
It is a flaw, therefor, to avoid trying to help people to understand the game and should be compensated for.
It is unfair to expect newer players to be as knowledgable of the game as someone with years of experience, therefore we should dumb the game down to make it easier for them. Its a point and click game, with a character menu, a skills tree menu, and an inventory menu. It comes with an instruction manual. Theres tons of websites, some of which are even afilliated with blizzard, designed to share knowledge of the game. Yeah your not talking about newbies, because theres a lot of veteran players on here that are still having a hard time learning features of the game, and that are working on their first build still.
Because you can just go and make another
Clearly there is character permanance if I must do this.
What is the point of having "permanent" characters if you can just go and make them by the bucket load as much as you please? Yes, technically the data of the character, itself, is permanent, but you can still make as many as you'd like, which is the same as remaking the same character over and over.
Oh ok, I'm going to keep erasing characters to make the same exact thing over and over without making any tweaks to it. Besides, if I have a red corvette, someone steals it and I collect insurance money and buy a new red corvette, I don't still have the same red corvette do I?
No, I said nothing about character skins
the vast majority of characters will always look the same
Lies.
And what do the vast majority use? The commonly-accepted items. And what do they strive for? The most powerful items for their build, which are the same for every character using the same build.
I can go in to channels in Diablo II and pick out tons of people with the same gear as others of their class just by looking at them. Just by sitting in a channel you can evidence that people are asking purely about cookie-cutter builds. They're all the same.
I just wrote a paragraph about similar builds using different gear set ups. If your smart and into dueling, your not even going to have 1 gear set up, your going to have swaps in stash, which would be why I'm against any sort of stash expansion/shared stashes if you'd like to know. Your pretty slick if you can tell the difference between an assassin with a bramble, a nigma, a fort, or one with a cracked version of the same armor as the others while sitting in a channel, even in game the only one you'd be able to pick out without playing with them for a bit would be the bramble, thanks to the aura.
Even hammerdins, probably the most numerous build have many gear variations. Some wear coas, some wear shakos, some wear circlets. Some swear by hotos, others wizardspikes. You see a lot using hoz's, but a lot also use spirit shields. Depending on their gear set up some use soj's, others use rare fcr rings. Every build has variations, which, like I said earlier, depend upon your budget and your personal playstyle or taste. What's the best weapon for a charger?
Because they weren't even relevant to the argument.
Yes it does. I must have mentioned 30 times now that allowing people to respec will encourage everyone to level as one of the better pvm builds for their class. So by asking you if you like hammerdins and summoners, its because your going to see a ton of them. Do you understand?
Because there is almost no variation with gear.
*palm to face* Sure not everyone is going to use something different, but there is quite a bit of variation from build to build, and even different tweaks of the same build. Are you still trying to figure out why some wind druids use spirit monarchs and others use stormshields, or you just thought all windy's were the same becuase they looked the same? Even back in the day when randoms were often your best gear choices, there were still ideal mods on randoms that were more commonly sought after then others.
I have no problem with a higher-leveled character helping out a weaker one. What I have an issue with is hundreds of games all being created for the soul purpose of a cookie-cutter build doing all the work for the weaker character to get all the quests done. That is not playing the game in any sense, that is getting someone to play it for you.
Ever try to level an auradin, you know, one of the real ones that your main aura is conviction and most of your damage comes froms auras off gears? Good luck getting anything done solo. Ever try to level a ghost? Have fun. You'd probably run out of money to fix your chaos claw, if you even could level enough to get to wear it. Some builds suck at pvm, its a multiplayer game, you get help to do it as quickly as possible.
I know, I know, I'm about to put words in your mouth again so I'll phrase it as a question. What do you want every character to be equal dps and have an equal amount of single immune monsters so pvm is fair? My old fire sorc blew nuts at pvm in hell, couldnt even solo a baal or chaos run with godly gear, but I could join a pub duel with her and kill everyone in it no problem. I never had a problem with that. Same for my bva, sucked pretty bad at pvm, was slow and costed a lot to keep gear repaired, but was a nasty dueler. So yeah, if I wanted to level one of these, I'd obviously go leech someone, but if I felt like hosting the runs I'd use one of my more capable pvm characters.
How the heck did you even get that out of it? I said that if you are allowed to respec, you will not need to re-level, so all of these "runs" will not be in such high demand. That is not contradictory at all.
The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in.
Doot dee doo.
Funny how you continue to just attack me on a personal level.
It wasn't attacking you on a personal level. You keep pointing out flaws in the game. A flaw is something not right with something. How exactly is the statement "If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it" attacking you? You said its flawed, if it has flaws, there are things wrong with it...
I'm not the one throwing personal attacks all over the place.
If you didnt contradict yourself so much and keep denying you said things when I can scroll back and quote them I wouldn't assume you were trolling.
I don't, so we're square. The difference here is that bots are against the EULA and respecs would not be since they would be implemented in a patch as an option integrated in to the game.
Agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that bots have a huge negative impact on the game for anyone not using one, as will respecs.
I'm talking about hundreds of games all going at once in which a full game of players simply sits in a room and leeches experience, not even talking to each other, not even strategizing. If they were doing both of those things, if there was a challenge and they were all pitching in and cooperating instead of just having some random runner kill monsters for them while they sit there like dumb sheep for game after game, then I would feel differently about it.
Fixing bots would solve some of this, however, like I mentioned above, some builds just suck at pvm. They arent useless characters, its just why bother even pretending to do anything when your in a baal run where 3 hdins, a trapper, and a blizz sorc kill everything within 5 seconds of each spawn and your on a bvc and dont feel like damaging your weapons.
I'm glad this game doesn't have the same features a lot of other games have, like in guild wars, when an 8 man group has to follow the basic set up of 2 healers, 2 tanks, and some nukers/status/hex spammers to do anything. If your two heales leave your screwed, if your tanks leave, your screwed. At least in D2 every character has potential to be a pvm or pvp power house depending how you build them, your not at the constant mercy of finding people of complementing classes to play with. However if you do, it can speed things up a lot and make things much easier. Hate dual immunes? Find a friend that plays a pally with conviction or necro that has lower res, or try a bowzon with an amp damage spammer.
Sure, and I'll make sure to hold up on my part in this and do the same thing when it proves that it is not "deader" and is, in fact, thriving as it always has been.
I wouldn't exactly call it thriving compared to what it used to be like unless you count bots.
Not rushing in my definition, no. A glitch is an unintended fault in the game. The game makers obviously did not spend months creating the game so that everyone on Battle.net would skip over 95% of it.
Got it, so you should have to kill 95% of the monsters in each area to proceed to the next, otherwise, your skipping more then your allocated 5% allowance and exploiting a flaw.
Yes it is. It is a flaw because allowing people to just skip everything is not encouraging people to play the game. It's a flaw.
Your right, I'll inform my friends they are no longer aloud to help me in certain areas of the game because its abusing a flaw in the design of the game.
Way to oversimplify it and cleverly place negative connotations on it. My argument was that is is unfair to expect all players to have the same exact foreknowledge and thus expect even the thousands of new players to conform to this predisposition of assumed knowledge base. It is not logical or feasible from a game development standpoint to assume that at all. The game offers no help what-so-ever in showing you the features of the game, advice on building your first build, or anything else that could be remotely considered user-friendly.
It is a flaw, therefor, to avoid trying to help people to understand the game and should be compensated for.
So, we should have to dumb down the game to make it more newbie friendly, rather then expect newbs to put a little effort into learning the game. Good idea.
My other two arguments, the only ones I can remember, are:
Let me paraphrase:
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
There is nothing permanent about characters in Diablo II. People make new ones by the buttload every hour.
Uh...they make new characters because the previous are all permanantly what they made them to be. If I make a sorc, spend all my stat and skill points, I can't ever change it, how is that not permanant? If I make a new sorc, the previous is still there. If I erase it, the sorc is permanantly gone.
Characters in Diablo II will never be unique besides their name. Unique character customization was never a part of Diablo II. Elite gear will always exist in the game (another game flaw), and so the vast majority of characters will always look the same and because of immunities and synergies the only functionally acceptable builds will always be inherently the same (another two game flaws).
Wow thats digging pretty deep, lack of character skins means your character has no uniqueness to it lol.
Otherwise, I half agree, half disagree. Sure, theres only so many possible ways to distribute your stat and skill points, and some ways just arent good, and theres only so many pieces of gear, some of which are more desireable then others, so naturally there are always going to be similar characters. Even still the only characters with exactly the same score screen you'll ever come across are level 99's on non ladder wearing identle sets of perfect modded gear and carrying identicle inventories of perfect torches, perfect annies, and perfect charms.
However, I disagree with functionally acceptable builds always inherently being the same. Example, WWsin. Some people use chaos/fury, some use chaos/fools claw, some even use chaos/bartucs. Some only use 1 point into lightning sentry/wof for locking people, some dump more points into traps so they can actually do meaningful damage, some max traps and prefer to do trap damage over ww damage. Some use dragon flight, some dont. Some wear nigma, some wear fort, some wear bramble. Regardless, the point is I could go on and on listing ways people tweak WWsins, and thats just one build for one class. It comes down to what you can afford for gear, and your personal playstyle, and your ability to best tailor your character to those two factors.
But seriously now, how is elite gear a game flaw? Theres always going to be "best" gear, if variations in gear quality is a flaw why not just play a shooter? I'm starting to even wonder why you bother with this game if it has so many deep rooted design flaws lol.
Why the hell would there be any less character variation? All it is is an option to relocate a preset number of skill points. It's not like it's something like immunities or synergies which lock skills in to rigid builds. In fact, it would not affect builds at all.
Wow, and you said I am ignoring all your good points. You quoted from me a few lines above where you said this...
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper.
And shortly when I make a witty comment about hammerdins and summoners, because they are two of the dominant pvm builds for paladins and necros you come back with...
What the heck does that have to do with anything?
I don't know how to break it down any further for you.
Never said that.
Then why do you keep complaining about how flawed allowing a higher level character to help speed you through the game is? If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it.
Ok, so your admitting respecs will make hell baal and chaos runs more common...
Exactly. And so if you could respec a large amount of skill points, you would not have to remake a character and re-level as heavily, instead of exploiting glitches and game flaws.
The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in.
Then one line later...
This is exactly my point. This "runs" aren't even entertaining, they're a choir. You sit in a room or follow a Hammderin or some other abused character around, most likely with tons of duped runes and gear, usually a bot, and leech experience points. There's hardly ever even any talking. You just go from "Baal 01" to "Baal 02". Wow, that really brings the Diablo community together! That is really a challenge!
Adding the respeccing option would lessen the need for this and allow players to focus more of their time doing other things which I feel are more multiplayer-oriented, like dueling.
Your talking about how awful they are. Fixing bots would do a lot more to make the game enjoyable then respecs, because guess what, your going to be a worthless dueler with crappy gear, and the only way to get decent gear is to do some runs. Even if your an epic trader, your gonna have to do some runs on occasion to get things to trade off.
So you can milk areas for experience following bots or other cloned characters once again doing all the work with little-to-no player-to-player interaction and once again taking advantage of a game flaw- that you weren't intended to just level and level in these areas, you were intended to get to an adequate level before hand on the way there through the various fields and dungeons.
*palm to face* I thought we already covered this. Some areas are going to be more efficient then others simply because they are more densely packed with monsters or have more unique monsters. I guess I'll just revert down to one of your tactics since I'm getting tired of your obvious trolling. If you don't like bots don't use one.(
They obviously don't, since you're in a 16.28% minority and you and others have been repeatedly rebutted by other members and me in this thread.
People can still support something for stupid reasons. Guess I'll just make sure to bump this thread and say I told ya so 6 months after the patch when bnet is deader then ever.
There is nothing "permanent" about your character in D2. You can move your items, delete your character, make a new one and rush it to 85 in one day, get the items back. Free respec in one day.
There is permanance now. Once you assign stats or skills its permanent to that character. If you delete and make a new one its not the same character anymore. However you seem to grasp the concept of how easy it is to correct mistakes, do you really want it to be made even easier? btw when I mentioned previously how fast you could level people still cried about it being tedious and unfair to have to use the delete/remake method to fix a mistake, yet you refer to it as free respec in a day lol.
If they fix rushing (meaning that it MUST take you months to build a character) and implement a cooldown on the respec function, they can make it more restrictive than it used to be. And I am absolutely sure they will make it restrictive.
Try and argue with that.
Ok.
I'm just going on the assumption they can't ever really make multiplayer slower then single player, and I could walk a character up to hell baal in a few days, so I don't see how it'd ever take months to build a character for anyone with a clue. You say "fix rushing," how do you suggest fixing someone having a friend help them out to do something faster? Like I mentioned before, even if you had to complete every quest in the game, it just means a rush would take 20 minutes instead of 10, big deal.
Otherwise, I can't really tell if you think making the game more restrictive is a good or bad thing. I always thought it was a good thing to not be restrictive. I love how in this game, knowing what your doing can allow you to accomplish more in an hour then some clueless guy can accomplish in 5. If you make game progession more restrictive its just making it so game knowledge, efficiency, and actually bothering to make a few bnet friends means a lot less, and the game will become more of a mindless grindfest. Top it off with respecs making it so you can't even make any mistakes, and it just doesn't seem like that would be evolving the game into something more appealing.
I never said you had to do every single quest, but okay. If the game was designed better, then the quests should be advantageous or fun enough to make you want to do them. Since they obviously weren't made that way, respeccing should be an option to avoid having to do this kind of crap all over again when you don't really want to, or you wouldn't be rushing (skipping huge parts of the game, long series of quests or areas).
If you do every quest essential to drive the main plot line to get to the next quest, and every quest that offers a worthwhile reward, you pretty much just did every quest. Rushing, as you keep talking about as a glitch, is no more then having a high level help you do so faster.
Please stop confusing glitch rushing with rushing. I can see how a level 1 in hell isnt exactly legit, but having a level 70 teleport act 3 for me because I'm too lazy to walk it all, isnt cheating, glitching, or a flaw in the game any way you dice it up, so get over it.
Besides, if rushing is a flaw in game design, how exactly is respeccing going to fix rushing? I'm still gonna rush every character I make with the exception of the first I make after reset when nobodies really capable of rushing.
Want to know why? Because I'm doing exactly what you're doing to everyone with a fair argument. I'm ignoring your good points.
You've given 2 reasons, and I already responded to them both.
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Rushing in all its forms is a massive flaw in the game and respeccing will somehow magically fix it.
Response.
1. Permanent character development has always been part of D2. Not all characters should be able to do everything, its what makes your character have a more unique feel. You seem to disagree with the following, but if you screw up your character you should have to deal with it, not have an ezfix option.
Lower population of lowbies after a few weeks into ladder will make it awfully boring to level any new alts as norm and nm will be far less populated. The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in. I hope you enjoy any other type of run becoming much less common.
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper. Its going to make pvm a lot more boring when theres even less character variation then there is now. Hope you really like hammerdins and summoners. Likewise for pvp, seeing a high level ghost is totally gonna lose its mystique and coolness factor when everyone can just level as a light trapper w/infinity merc and respec when they wanna start pvp'ing.
2. See above. Also
No, my definition of rushing is skipping through large parts of the game (quests and/or areas) using glitches., or things that are not supposed to happen in the game which should be patched, if you really want to know.
I'd agree with glitch rushing fitting this definition. If you can't differentiate the two, glitch rushing allows you to have a level 1 all the way to helll if you want.
Regular rushing, you still have to put the time in to leveling the character to a high enough level to beat ancients in each difficulty. Your merely allowing a high level to get you through some of the slower areas of the game faster so you can level in the more efficient ones. If allowing a higher level to help you out is wrong in any way, then I guess every multiplayer rpg type game I've ever played has the same design flaw.
There you have it, direct answers with some relevance to the game, debunking one answer thats just whining and another thats on a totally related topic and still doesn't even amount to a decent argument. When the anti-respec arguments clearly outweigh the pro-respec arguments, that is why I do not support respecs in this game.
That was never even brought up. Stop bringing up irrelevant arguments.
Then how else do you beat the game without some degree of rushing? If your not doing every quest and searching every side area, your rushing, therefore your not playing the game as it was designed according to your logic.
I do.
And you said my point was irrelevant. Respecs are going to go in regardless. Respecs are going to kill the game. I see people in the other thread listed a lot of the same valid reasons I listed in this thread, yet the only support still remains QQ why should I have to remake a character I screwed up on. This isnt D2, this is Pokeland! We're all winners here! Yayyyyy!
No one I know agree with that line (I asked), and I know I certainly don't.
Oh but they all agree with having to kill every monster in every area to proceed to the next? Besides, I don't know anyone that agrees with respeccing(I asked), and I know I certainly don't.
Didn't the quote from Bashiok state that the respecing element would be very limited? (Or did i dream that?) In which case it is really just a case of wait and see how their plans are executed.
The interesting debate will start after we've all seen it and can form opinions based on our experiences.
Once they beging pussifying the game, it will be irreversable and awful. I can't wait until they patch in a pikachu class.
If respecs help to get the amount of rushing and leeching down it's already a good thing only for that reason.
But rushing is no more then helping someone through the game. Your always going to have leeching in this game. If I'm playing a wwsin and I'm in a game full of trappers and hdins pwning everything, why am I even gonna pretend like im useful and damage my claws. WWsins are aresome pvp'ers though. This is character diversity, as long as it exists there will be leeching(characters helping other characters from a different perspective) in the game. Respeccing is going to take away from character diversity.
public xp1+n, exp here 1+n games.. just like before LOD when there really wasn't much Runs games because party exp was poor in a 8 player party. People made random exp games where they hooked up with a friend or some random guy at about same level and went clearing CS, river or something. Or they just soloed which was the best exp if you killed fast enough solo.
Why would I ever want to clear river when chaos is one area away and contains a lot more unique monsters that have better drops and is more densely packed with monsters then river. Its like the other guy said, even if you nerf certain areas as they are now or buff others, theres always going to be ideal areas people will farm. Nothing ever held anyone back from creating a game for a river run if they want, just not many people would want to bother when theres probably chaos runs going on. As far as the whole best exp solo thing, why would I ever want to run around solo exping when its a multiplayer game? Is giving people reasons to actually play with other people a bad thing on a multiplayer game?
read the parenthesis, pratice what you preach plz..... now how does it feel that rushing is affecting you even tho your not using it, same way with respecing. so your arguement that if you dont like it dont use it, is flawed.
Rushing really doesn't impact him at all. Even if your getting rushed you still have to level the character to 25 before you can exp off baal runs. This means your always going to find characters leveling from 1-25, and have a good chance of finding some norm baal runs when your there. Only way they can argue with rushing is to continuosly bring up glitch rushing, which nobody on the board seems to be in support of anyhow. Otherwise, rushing is simply a player helping another player out in a multiplayer game, how is that a design flaw?
What do you people want, the game to force you to clear every monster in an area before it allows you into the next, and only allows you to join games in which people are in the exact same area as you, because skipping any portion of the game clearly is not how its meant to be palyed. Top it off with respecs, and what you have would be far, far from the design thats made D2 successful.
Adding a respeccing option (option, you know, the thing you don't have to use if you don't want to but makes it more convenient for everyone?) will greatly lessen the need for all these Baal, Chaos, and other run games where players don't even talk to each other or strategize- they just sit in a room or follow a single powerful player around and absorb experience.
Hey your finally getting there my friend! Ok now, let's take this in small pieces.
You are anti rushing, so lets pretend there were no rushing games.
You are anti runs, so lets pretend there were no trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, chaos runs, or baal runs, any of those nifty runs that end in a number that tends to get +1 after each game.
Whats left? You'd have your pub trade games and pub duels. I mean, wouldn't anyone looking for help with an act technically be getting rushed if someone else just popped in and tp'd them to the few things they'd need to do to get past it in a matter of minutes? What you consider fixing the game would actually kill massive portions of it.
As far as making the game convenient for everyone, no, no it will not. Its going to be harder to level lowbies because there wont be nearly as many lowbies in normal after the first few weeks of ladder when everyones got high levels they can just respec. Try leveling in a tomb game solo, and in a full tomb game and tell me which is more convenient. Surely you must have at least noticed this convenience factor even in norm baal games, or do you do solo baal runs to level all your characters?
As far as lessening the need for chaos and baal runs...what?? Of all the characters on ladder, what % do you think are non bot level 99's? Even if everyone had level 99's they'd still do these runs for mf'ing.
Players not talk or strategize? If you want to talk, say something? Unless your in a game with just you and a bot(which I really hope they'd get rid of) you'll get some answers. Strategizing? wtf? The AI in this game is horrible, why would you ever need to strategize? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just say your not into dueling. You should really try it out if your not, theres plenty of conversation and strategizing, especially if you get into team duels.
Those things aren't even supposed to be in the game in the way that players currently use them.
They are not in the game to group up and kill in? The reason people use these areas is because they are densely packed with monsters. The game as meant to replay the same areas. Otherwise they wouldnt have bothered with the random area generation. What if you want to get to ubers, should you have to make a new alt for each key attempt becuase each area was intended to be run one time? If you only cleared each area once you'd probably never get out of normal. Suppose baal and minions should only spawn once too, wouldnt want people abusing baal runs.
Nowhere am I saying you should be punished. If you take the time to level a character, you have your reward, you have that particular character. Punishing you would be if the character randomly self deleted for sucking. Nothing would be stopping you from continuing playing a level 95 with a spec that is nondesirable for your current gaming mood or force you to erase them. I'm simply saying, as others have posted, permanant choices add to the unique feel to each character you make as well as add to character diversity.
This is going to be the most bland ladder season ever. Anyone with a clue is going to level as the better pvm builds for each character and respec at high levels. You'll never see a newbie boner when you can just level as a summoner. You'll never see a newbie foh'er when you could just level as an hdin. You'll never see anyone leveling a ghost of venomsin when they could just level as a light trapper. Oh sorry, I must be trolling again, what the hell was I thinking providing actual examples of why respecs are going to blow other then whining about how I hate screwing my characters up.
leveling to 90 in an hour or whatever it is that some people do.
This is called glitch rushing. Like I previously stated I never tried making a case for glitch rushing. There is a difference between glitch rushing, and regular rushing. Saying rushing is wrong, is basically saying its wrong to help someone in an online game. What do you want me to do if my friend asks for help to get past act 4 and 5, follow him with an foh'er and randomly thin the herd for him to make the game 30% easier? Nah, I'd rather just tp him right to the boss and give him the quest.
"This is my first character, I've been playing with friends, and we just got to Hell difficulty, and I'm specced <This way>, but it's worthless here, and re-rolling would undo all of the work we just did."
Hey thanks for supporting me, becuase this directly translates to "I screwed up, why should I have to deal with my mistake"
What about, "I've finished the game after having tested this one build, but I'd like to give this other build a shot?"
Remember, not everyone is a hardcore "Lets get g-rushed and do chaos runs until 80" kind of person.
So you do some trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, anciets at 24, and then start baaling, if you have friends in hell with you who will baal you in pub games, that other lowbies usually join so you all get more exp, you can catch up to them pretty damn fast with no grush involved. Its pretty fun sometimes doing newbie runs like this, but hey who cares if its going to be impossible to ever fill a game up with lowbies becuase everyone can respec their screw ups away. Not all characters are meant to be equal. Some are better pvp and not so good pvm, some awesome pvm and not so good pvp, some decent at both, and some just suck. If you want to be equal in all parts of the game as everyone else, check out Call of Duty.
As far as the not everyone is a hardcore grusher, I've never made an argument for why grushing should be kept around. You can do legit rushes without grushing. To complain about people skipping quests not important to push through the storyline and having help to kill bosses(legit rush omg), then to complain its boring and tedious to have to level a new character in the next breath, just doesn't make very much sense. Even if you had to do every quest to push through the storyline, it'd just mean the difference of a legit rush taking 20 minutes instead of 10.(not counting however fast you can level to 24 to hit 25 off ancients and be able to baal.) Even if they patched it so you couldnt move back to a difficulty after you beat it to prevent people from legit rushing, you'd just see people leaving level 40's in normal forever for the purpose of norm runs, and a level 70 in nm forever for nm rushing. I always thought the ability to have someone give you waypoints and help on bosses was one of the perks to playing on bnet instead of on single player.
There was not a single reason given other then "I shouldnt have to go through the whole game again becuase I screwed my character up," which amounts to QQ its not fair that I can't be 1337 just because I don't understand the game as much as some other people.
So, if you value this "very little time investment", which hangs on wasting a good couple of hours doing the same exact things over in the game, why not just remove the time investment completely so that you can do what really matters with your character- play it?
Theres already a genre of online games that dont require character development. They're called first person shooters. If I wanted a game taht required no time investment to build a character I'd go play one of those rather then whine a relatively fast moving rpg needs to be even faster.
I value how I can tell my character is going to be total garbage with little time investment, but if you can remember the rest of what I said, you can also work on the same character for an entire ladder trying to level and get uber gear.
Still have yet to see a good reason for respecs on this thread other then QQ its not fair that I messed up.
anyway my point is that irrevocable, permanent choices are not a flaw to me; they are deeply important to my diablo experience, both for the gravity of the decision itself and for what it means to the character.
yes.
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Oh well, I guess failling to agree with your same 2 arguments which I gave multiple reasons why I disagreed with each, and calling you out on blatant lies multiple times makes me closed minded.
Just out of curiosity though, did you by any chance vote for Obama?
Hey I said that a while back. You said...
I'm clearly not promoting glitch rushing, I admitted its a glitch, and it wouldnt bother me at all to see it go. I never promoted glitch rushing, but yes, I do support regular rushes that require you to level to at least 24 to do your norm ancients/baal, do either some norm baaling or a bit of leveling in nm, and some nm baaling or hell grinding to be able to get to hell baal. I support it, becuase rushing is simply having someone help you get through the game quicker and more efficiently. Even if blizzard tried to limit it by, yes I'm going to use an EXTREME EXAMPLE, making you have to completely clear each area, people will still rush. I'll just have a friend with an auradin walk me through normal and nightmare, and switch to a more capable build to kill crap for me in hell. Why, simply because at the very least killing in hell drops better gear and I'd much rather spend time in areas where I might get something then doing the same thing in areas where all crap is going to drop.
Why would I ever want to kill anything in normal or nightmare when I can kill the same stuff in hell and get better loot? I kill in normal until I am good enough to kill in nm, kill in nm until I can handle hell, then kill in hell. I'm not gonna waste any more time killing lower level crap then I absolutely have to. Besides, it takes a hell of a lot longer to go from 95-99 then it takes to go from 1-94, seems like it was intentionally designed for you to spend more time in the harder difficulties.
Good point, blizzard should start a mailing list to mail people supplemental instruction manuals, becuase forcing you to hit alt+tab to look something up real quick is practically a crime.
Hey, good point. Guess I was one of those lucky people who was born knowing everything about this game. Oh wait, no I wasn't, but I guess I enjoyed a game that required me to think to get good at. You can learn everything you need to know about the game by reading a few stickied post on the bnet forums, scanning the arreat summit site, asking players in game questions, and *gasp* doing some experimenting on your own.
Yeah it was, calling people on blatant lies is great.
Nah, I'd be completely for it if he said they were releasing some new gear that was aimed at making some crappy builds more useful or make more potential variations of builds that are already useful, or if some crappy skills were tweaked to actually be useful, that would also open up more build options. I'd also be more then happy if he said botting and duping would be elimated. I'd also love if the "content patch" contained some new areas and bosses to pwn. Fixing desynching would probably give me an all out erection. If your going to make personal attacks against me at least make them somewhat realistic.
Oh, please explain how when they are all identical as far as looks go when your sitting in a channel.
No you wouldn't. People generally bot when the are afk, and do other things like pvp or trade when they arent afk. Nobodies gonna do manual baal runs 18 hours a day just because they can't bot anymore.
Way to chop up a sentence into 2 and 3 word quotes to pull out out of context. I was saying if you were in baal game with 3 hammerdins and a blizzard sorc that can pretty much insta kill stuff while spamming the spawn point at throne and your on a build that doesnt do much aoe damage are you going to bother even pretending to do anything?
1. For a lot of builds they don't.
2. Dear god we can only hope this never happens.
3. Would this really change that I'd still want to do baal/chaos runs as a pvm build then a pvp build?
Yeah, way to pull one tiny example of a plethora of examples I made to make this argument. Go ahead and find 2 wind druids, only gear theres almost 100% certainty they both have on is enigma and arachnid. Head gear might be shako, circlet, or a pelt, wield could be spirit, suicide branch, wizzie, hoto, shield could be spirit of monarch, rings could be sojs/bks or rare fcr rings, etc... Sure, your somewhat limited with character customization, but everyone being a cookie cutter clone like you keep insinuating is far from the truth.
Sorry boss, there is really no 1 best gear set up for any build. Also, how exactly do you tell the difference between a spirit in a zak shield skin and a hoz? Can you really tell the difference between a barb wielding an eth death cleaver and an ebotd? Didn't think so.
Could uh, just keep the one you had and screw around with a different build.
Every class is more then capable of beating hell solo if this is your goal. You could make a dual ele sorc for 2 elements worth of damage, and a merc that has some phys damage. Carry around some randoms with lower res and amp damage charges and your more then capable of beating the game.
The only reason really to make a narrow build is to maximize your damage for group efficiency or pvp killing power, so who really cares if they aren't always as capable of solo play as a character designed for it.
Nah, there used to be more people playing, guess you just cant pick the bots out. Those annoying bastards that join your games at random and spam crap about item shops, are bots. Those guys that do 800 baal runs a day, are also bots. Anyone that makes random games and runs the same couple unique monsters over and over and leaves either right after you pk him or right when you hostile, is also a bot.
Why can't you do any of these runs on your own? Is taking advantage of a feature that grants more exp for being in a game with other people and doing it bad? I mean, we wouldn't want to discourage team play in online play would we?
As far as rebalancing the game to truly take months to level...is that a joke? Even if they made monsters drop tiny exp amounts so this did happen, what would it accomplish, you'd have to do 1000 trist runs instead of 10? Even if they fixed these imbalanced areas as you describe them, that would be a fantastic game design to require you to clear act 1 norm 19 times before you can think about taking on act 2 lol. Then, when you got to a level where you want to do some hell baals, it'd take months to get 1 level, awesome. That would totally make the game more hardcore! Just wondering, but did you know the game already has a hardcore option, and its a lot more hardcore then this crap lol.
Nah, its a multiplayer game, make friends and get help. You don't have to grush and power level to build harder to level builds, you can just find some friends doing a playthrough and follow along. Some builds have more of a coolness factor to them since they are harder to make. Most of such builds are basically pvp builds anyhow, so if you make them uber at pvp and uber at pvm, then what becomes the use of builds that are more pvm oriented?
Grushing would be an easy fix if they wanted to. I dont have very much faith in blizzard to fix the botting though, seems to me like each ladders just been more hacked then the previous. Like some other dude already mentioned, and its not going to be a big suprise when it happens, people will just bot level 99 on a pvm build and respec to something more pvp oriented that couldnt handle functioning as a bot. Way to implement a change that rewards botting even more blizzard, I applaud you.
Back to the thing with some characters sucking at pvm and why I like it, how many level 99 auradins did you see last ladder vs level 99 hammerdins? If you were to actually level an auardin to 99 it'd be cool as hell, since you'd probably be the only one to do it on ladder, but after respeccing it wont mean anything. It'll just mean you fully botted a hammerdin, respecced, and leveled up another character to run as your hdin bot. Fixing bots and duping would be infinitely more beneficial to the game then respecs. Bet you won't see either fixed.
Well I don't see where your coming from when you say having a higher level friend help me out is a flaw in the game, but that I shouldnt have to kill a majority of monsters in an area to proceed. What should I have to walk from entrance to exit of each area on my own only killing whats on my way, because clearing the area would be extreme, and having help to speed past it would be extreme?
It is unfair to expect newer players to be as knowledgable of the game as someone with years of experience, therefore we should dumb the game down to make it easier for them. Its a point and click game, with a character menu, a skills tree menu, and an inventory menu. It comes with an instruction manual. Theres tons of websites, some of which are even afilliated with blizzard, designed to share knowledge of the game. Yeah your not talking about newbies, because theres a lot of veteran players on here that are still having a hard time learning features of the game, and that are working on their first build still.
Clearly there is character permanance if I must do this.
Oh ok, I'm going to keep erasing characters to make the same exact thing over and over without making any tweaks to it. Besides, if I have a red corvette, someone steals it and I collect insurance money and buy a new red corvette, I don't still have the same red corvette do I?
Lies.
I just wrote a paragraph about similar builds using different gear set ups. If your smart and into dueling, your not even going to have 1 gear set up, your going to have swaps in stash, which would be why I'm against any sort of stash expansion/shared stashes if you'd like to know. Your pretty slick if you can tell the difference between an assassin with a bramble, a nigma, a fort, or one with a cracked version of the same armor as the others while sitting in a channel, even in game the only one you'd be able to pick out without playing with them for a bit would be the bramble, thanks to the aura.
Even hammerdins, probably the most numerous build have many gear variations. Some wear coas, some wear shakos, some wear circlets. Some swear by hotos, others wizardspikes. You see a lot using hoz's, but a lot also use spirit shields. Depending on their gear set up some use soj's, others use rare fcr rings. Every build has variations, which, like I said earlier, depend upon your budget and your personal playstyle or taste. What's the best weapon for a charger?
Yes it does. I must have mentioned 30 times now that allowing people to respec will encourage everyone to level as one of the better pvm builds for their class. So by asking you if you like hammerdins and summoners, its because your going to see a ton of them. Do you understand?
*palm to face* Sure not everyone is going to use something different, but there is quite a bit of variation from build to build, and even different tweaks of the same build. Are you still trying to figure out why some wind druids use spirit monarchs and others use stormshields, or you just thought all windy's were the same becuase they looked the same? Even back in the day when randoms were often your best gear choices, there were still ideal mods on randoms that were more commonly sought after then others.
I have no problem with a higher-leveled character helping out a weaker one. What I have an issue with is hundreds of games all being created for the soul purpose of a cookie-cutter build doing all the work for the weaker character to get all the quests done. That is not playing the game in any sense, that is getting someone to play it for you.
Ever try to level an auradin, you know, one of the real ones that your main aura is conviction and most of your damage comes froms auras off gears? Good luck getting anything done solo. Ever try to level a ghost? Have fun. You'd probably run out of money to fix your chaos claw, if you even could level enough to get to wear it. Some builds suck at pvm, its a multiplayer game, you get help to do it as quickly as possible.
I know, I know, I'm about to put words in your mouth again so I'll phrase it as a question. What do you want every character to be equal dps and have an equal amount of single immune monsters so pvm is fair? My old fire sorc blew nuts at pvm in hell, couldnt even solo a baal or chaos run with godly gear, but I could join a pub duel with her and kill everyone in it no problem. I never had a problem with that. Same for my bva, sucked pretty bad at pvm, was slow and costed a lot to keep gear repaired, but was a nasty dueler. So yeah, if I wanted to level one of these, I'd obviously go leech someone, but if I felt like hosting the runs I'd use one of my more capable pvm characters.
Doot dee doo.
It wasn't attacking you on a personal level. You keep pointing out flaws in the game. A flaw is something not right with something. How exactly is the statement "If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it" attacking you? You said its flawed, if it has flaws, there are things wrong with it...
If you didnt contradict yourself so much and keep denying you said things when I can scroll back and quote them I wouldn't assume you were trolling.
Agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that bots have a huge negative impact on the game for anyone not using one, as will respecs.
Fixing bots would solve some of this, however, like I mentioned above, some builds just suck at pvm. They arent useless characters, its just why bother even pretending to do anything when your in a baal run where 3 hdins, a trapper, and a blizz sorc kill everything within 5 seconds of each spawn and your on a bvc and dont feel like damaging your weapons.
I'm glad this game doesn't have the same features a lot of other games have, like in guild wars, when an 8 man group has to follow the basic set up of 2 healers, 2 tanks, and some nukers/status/hex spammers to do anything. If your two heales leave your screwed, if your tanks leave, your screwed. At least in D2 every character has potential to be a pvm or pvp power house depending how you build them, your not at the constant mercy of finding people of complementing classes to play with. However if you do, it can speed things up a lot and make things much easier. Hate dual immunes? Find a friend that plays a pally with conviction or necro that has lower res, or try a bowzon with an amp damage spammer.
I wouldn't exactly call it thriving compared to what it used to be like unless you count bots.
Got it, so you should have to kill 95% of the monsters in each area to proceed to the next, otherwise, your skipping more then your allocated 5% allowance and exploiting a flaw.
Your right, I'll inform my friends they are no longer aloud to help me in certain areas of the game because its abusing a flaw in the design of the game.
So, we should have to dumb down the game to make it more newbie friendly, rather then expect newbs to put a little effort into learning the game. Good idea.
Let me paraphrase:
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
Uh...they make new characters because the previous are all permanantly what they made them to be. If I make a sorc, spend all my stat and skill points, I can't ever change it, how is that not permanant? If I make a new sorc, the previous is still there. If I erase it, the sorc is permanantly gone.
Wow thats digging pretty deep, lack of character skins means your character has no uniqueness to it lol.
Otherwise, I half agree, half disagree. Sure, theres only so many possible ways to distribute your stat and skill points, and some ways just arent good, and theres only so many pieces of gear, some of which are more desireable then others, so naturally there are always going to be similar characters. Even still the only characters with exactly the same score screen you'll ever come across are level 99's on non ladder wearing identle sets of perfect modded gear and carrying identicle inventories of perfect torches, perfect annies, and perfect charms.
However, I disagree with functionally acceptable builds always inherently being the same. Example, WWsin. Some people use chaos/fury, some use chaos/fools claw, some even use chaos/bartucs. Some only use 1 point into lightning sentry/wof for locking people, some dump more points into traps so they can actually do meaningful damage, some max traps and prefer to do trap damage over ww damage. Some use dragon flight, some dont. Some wear nigma, some wear fort, some wear bramble. Regardless, the point is I could go on and on listing ways people tweak WWsins, and thats just one build for one class. It comes down to what you can afford for gear, and your personal playstyle, and your ability to best tailor your character to those two factors.
But seriously now, how is elite gear a game flaw? Theres always going to be "best" gear, if variations in gear quality is a flaw why not just play a shooter? I'm starting to even wonder why you bother with this game if it has so many deep rooted design flaws lol.
Wow, and you said I am ignoring all your good points. You quoted from me a few lines above where you said this...
And shortly when I make a witty comment about hammerdins and summoners, because they are two of the dominant pvm builds for paladins and necros you come back with...
I don't know how to break it down any further for you.
Then why do you keep complaining about how flawed allowing a higher level character to help speed you through the game is? If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it.
Ok, so your admitting respecs will make hell baal and chaos runs more common...
Then one line later...
Your talking about how awful they are. Fixing bots would do a lot more to make the game enjoyable then respecs, because guess what, your going to be a worthless dueler with crappy gear, and the only way to get decent gear is to do some runs. Even if your an epic trader, your gonna have to do some runs on occasion to get things to trade off.
*palm to face* I thought we already covered this. Some areas are going to be more efficient then others simply because they are more densely packed with monsters or have more unique monsters. I guess I'll just revert down to one of your tactics since I'm getting tired of your obvious trolling. If you don't like bots don't use one.(
People can still support something for stupid reasons. Guess I'll just make sure to bump this thread and say I told ya so 6 months after the patch when bnet is deader then ever.
There is permanance now. Once you assign stats or skills its permanent to that character. If you delete and make a new one its not the same character anymore. However you seem to grasp the concept of how easy it is to correct mistakes, do you really want it to be made even easier? btw when I mentioned previously how fast you could level people still cried about it being tedious and unfair to have to use the delete/remake method to fix a mistake, yet you refer to it as free respec in a day lol.
Ok.
I'm just going on the assumption they can't ever really make multiplayer slower then single player, and I could walk a character up to hell baal in a few days, so I don't see how it'd ever take months to build a character for anyone with a clue. You say "fix rushing," how do you suggest fixing someone having a friend help them out to do something faster? Like I mentioned before, even if you had to complete every quest in the game, it just means a rush would take 20 minutes instead of 10, big deal.
Otherwise, I can't really tell if you think making the game more restrictive is a good or bad thing. I always thought it was a good thing to not be restrictive. I love how in this game, knowing what your doing can allow you to accomplish more in an hour then some clueless guy can accomplish in 5. If you make game progession more restrictive its just making it so game knowledge, efficiency, and actually bothering to make a few bnet friends means a lot less, and the game will become more of a mindless grindfest. Top it off with respecs making it so you can't even make any mistakes, and it just doesn't seem like that would be evolving the game into something more appealing.
If you do every quest essential to drive the main plot line to get to the next quest, and every quest that offers a worthwhile reward, you pretty much just did every quest. Rushing, as you keep talking about as a glitch, is no more then having a high level help you do so faster.
Please stop confusing glitch rushing with rushing. I can see how a level 1 in hell isnt exactly legit, but having a level 70 teleport act 3 for me because I'm too lazy to walk it all, isnt cheating, glitching, or a flaw in the game any way you dice it up, so get over it.
Besides, if rushing is a flaw in game design, how exactly is respeccing going to fix rushing? I'm still gonna rush every character I make with the exception of the first I make after reset when nobodies really capable of rushing.
You've given 2 reasons, and I already responded to them both.
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Rushing in all its forms is a massive flaw in the game and respeccing will somehow magically fix it.
Response.
1. Permanent character development has always been part of D2. Not all characters should be able to do everything, its what makes your character have a more unique feel. You seem to disagree with the following, but if you screw up your character you should have to deal with it, not have an ezfix option.
Lower population of lowbies after a few weeks into ladder will make it awfully boring to level any new alts as norm and nm will be far less populated. The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in. I hope you enjoy any other type of run becoming much less common.
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper. Its going to make pvm a lot more boring when theres even less character variation then there is now. Hope you really like hammerdins and summoners. Likewise for pvp, seeing a high level ghost is totally gonna lose its mystique and coolness factor when everyone can just level as a light trapper w/infinity merc and respec when they wanna start pvp'ing.
2. See above. Also
I'd agree with glitch rushing fitting this definition. If you can't differentiate the two, glitch rushing allows you to have a level 1 all the way to helll if you want.
Regular rushing, you still have to put the time in to leveling the character to a high enough level to beat ancients in each difficulty. Your merely allowing a high level to get you through some of the slower areas of the game faster so you can level in the more efficient ones. If allowing a higher level to help you out is wrong in any way, then I guess every multiplayer rpg type game I've ever played has the same design flaw.
There you have it, direct answers with some relevance to the game, debunking one answer thats just whining and another thats on a totally related topic and still doesn't even amount to a decent argument. When the anti-respec arguments clearly outweigh the pro-respec arguments, that is why I do not support respecs in this game.
Then how else do you beat the game without some degree of rushing? If your not doing every quest and searching every side area, your rushing, therefore your not playing the game as it was designed according to your logic.
And you said my point was irrelevant. Respecs are going to go in regardless. Respecs are going to kill the game. I see people in the other thread listed a lot of the same valid reasons I listed in this thread, yet the only support still remains QQ why should I have to remake a character I screwed up on. This isnt D2, this is Pokeland! We're all winners here! Yayyyyy!
Oh but they all agree with having to kill every monster in every area to proceed to the next? Besides, I don't know anyone that agrees with respeccing(I asked), and I know I certainly don't.
Once they beging pussifying the game, it will be irreversable and awful. I can't wait until they patch in a pikachu class.
But rushing is no more then helping someone through the game. Your always going to have leeching in this game. If I'm playing a wwsin and I'm in a game full of trappers and hdins pwning everything, why am I even gonna pretend like im useful and damage my claws. WWsins are aresome pvp'ers though. This is character diversity, as long as it exists there will be leeching(characters helping other characters from a different perspective) in the game. Respeccing is going to take away from character diversity.
Why would I ever want to clear river when chaos is one area away and contains a lot more unique monsters that have better drops and is more densely packed with monsters then river. Its like the other guy said, even if you nerf certain areas as they are now or buff others, theres always going to be ideal areas people will farm. Nothing ever held anyone back from creating a game for a river run if they want, just not many people would want to bother when theres probably chaos runs going on. As far as the whole best exp solo thing, why would I ever want to run around solo exping when its a multiplayer game? Is giving people reasons to actually play with other people a bad thing on a multiplayer game?
Rushing really doesn't impact him at all. Even if your getting rushed you still have to level the character to 25 before you can exp off baal runs. This means your always going to find characters leveling from 1-25, and have a good chance of finding some norm baal runs when your there. Only way they can argue with rushing is to continuosly bring up glitch rushing, which nobody on the board seems to be in support of anyhow. Otherwise, rushing is simply a player helping another player out in a multiplayer game, how is that a design flaw?
What do you people want, the game to force you to clear every monster in an area before it allows you into the next, and only allows you to join games in which people are in the exact same area as you, because skipping any portion of the game clearly is not how its meant to be palyed. Top it off with respecs, and what you have would be far, far from the design thats made D2 successful.
Hey your finally getting there my friend! Ok now, let's take this in small pieces.
You are anti rushing, so lets pretend there were no rushing games.
You are anti runs, so lets pretend there were no trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, chaos runs, or baal runs, any of those nifty runs that end in a number that tends to get +1 after each game.
Whats left? You'd have your pub trade games and pub duels. I mean, wouldn't anyone looking for help with an act technically be getting rushed if someone else just popped in and tp'd them to the few things they'd need to do to get past it in a matter of minutes? What you consider fixing the game would actually kill massive portions of it.
As far as making the game convenient for everyone, no, no it will not. Its going to be harder to level lowbies because there wont be nearly as many lowbies in normal after the first few weeks of ladder when everyones got high levels they can just respec. Try leveling in a tomb game solo, and in a full tomb game and tell me which is more convenient. Surely you must have at least noticed this convenience factor even in norm baal games, or do you do solo baal runs to level all your characters?
As far as lessening the need for chaos and baal runs...what?? Of all the characters on ladder, what % do you think are non bot level 99's? Even if everyone had level 99's they'd still do these runs for mf'ing.
Players not talk or strategize? If you want to talk, say something? Unless your in a game with just you and a bot(which I really hope they'd get rid of) you'll get some answers. Strategizing? wtf? The AI in this game is horrible, why would you ever need to strategize? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just say your not into dueling. You should really try it out if your not, theres plenty of conversation and strategizing, especially if you get into team duels.
They are not in the game to group up and kill in? The reason people use these areas is because they are densely packed with monsters. The game as meant to replay the same areas. Otherwise they wouldnt have bothered with the random area generation. What if you want to get to ubers, should you have to make a new alt for each key attempt becuase each area was intended to be run one time? If you only cleared each area once you'd probably never get out of normal. Suppose baal and minions should only spawn once too, wouldnt want people abusing baal runs.
Nowhere am I saying you should be punished. If you take the time to level a character, you have your reward, you have that particular character. Punishing you would be if the character randomly self deleted for sucking. Nothing would be stopping you from continuing playing a level 95 with a spec that is nondesirable for your current gaming mood or force you to erase them. I'm simply saying, as others have posted, permanant choices add to the unique feel to each character you make as well as add to character diversity.
This is going to be the most bland ladder season ever. Anyone with a clue is going to level as the better pvm builds for each character and respec at high levels. You'll never see a newbie boner when you can just level as a summoner. You'll never see a newbie foh'er when you could just level as an hdin. You'll never see anyone leveling a ghost of venomsin when they could just level as a light trapper. Oh sorry, I must be trolling again, what the hell was I thinking providing actual examples of why respecs are going to blow other then whining about how I hate screwing my characters up.
This is called glitch rushing. Like I previously stated I never tried making a case for glitch rushing. There is a difference between glitch rushing, and regular rushing. Saying rushing is wrong, is basically saying its wrong to help someone in an online game. What do you want me to do if my friend asks for help to get past act 4 and 5, follow him with an foh'er and randomly thin the herd for him to make the game 30% easier? Nah, I'd rather just tp him right to the boss and give him the quest.
Hey thanks for supporting me, becuase this directly translates to "I screwed up, why should I have to deal with my mistake"
So you do some trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, anciets at 24, and then start baaling, if you have friends in hell with you who will baal you in pub games, that other lowbies usually join so you all get more exp, you can catch up to them pretty damn fast with no grush involved. Its pretty fun sometimes doing newbie runs like this, but hey who cares if its going to be impossible to ever fill a game up with lowbies becuase everyone can respec their screw ups away. Not all characters are meant to be equal. Some are better pvp and not so good pvm, some awesome pvm and not so good pvp, some decent at both, and some just suck. If you want to be equal in all parts of the game as everyone else, check out Call of Duty.
As far as the not everyone is a hardcore grusher, I've never made an argument for why grushing should be kept around. You can do legit rushes without grushing. To complain about people skipping quests not important to push through the storyline and having help to kill bosses(legit rush omg), then to complain its boring and tedious to have to level a new character in the next breath, just doesn't make very much sense. Even if you had to do every quest to push through the storyline, it'd just mean the difference of a legit rush taking 20 minutes instead of 10.(not counting however fast you can level to 24 to hit 25 off ancients and be able to baal.) Even if they patched it so you couldnt move back to a difficulty after you beat it to prevent people from legit rushing, you'd just see people leaving level 40's in normal forever for the purpose of norm runs, and a level 70 in nm forever for nm rushing. I always thought the ability to have someone give you waypoints and help on bosses was one of the perks to playing on bnet instead of on single player.
There was not a single reason given other then "I shouldnt have to go through the whole game again becuase I screwed my character up," which amounts to QQ its not fair that I can't be 1337 just because I don't understand the game as much as some other people.
Theres already a genre of online games that dont require character development. They're called first person shooters. If I wanted a game taht required no time investment to build a character I'd go play one of those rather then whine a relatively fast moving rpg needs to be even faster.
I value how I can tell my character is going to be total garbage with little time investment, but if you can remember the rest of what I said, you can also work on the same character for an entire ladder trying to level and get uber gear.
Still have yet to see a good reason for respecs on this thread other then QQ its not fair that I messed up.
yes.