Wizard (One skill slot and one passive spent):
20% melee DR
45% armor
-20 Arcane Power
Barbarian (Only one skill slot):
30% DR
10% All Resistance
Hey, if I were to choose one of those two, I would pick barbarian. 45% Armor will (with dimish) not be that much in end game. Let's say it's ~10% DR. Even then, barbarian is better. Worth noting is that the barbarian only spent one skill slot while the Wizard spent a skill slot and a passive. Oh, and don't forget Barbarian is during all this boosting the shit out of his allies.
How can you confirm 10% DR is better then 45% Armor ?
In one way or another, the difference between a Wizard that chooses to buff him/her self and a Barbarian are not as large as people initially stated. The Wizard lacks the passive buff, but her active buffs are substantially stronger (+65% armor and 20% melee DR are just huge buffs.
Yeh wizard problably have lower damage mitigation then barbarians but this discrepance is not that high. All this theory about melee wizard being uderpowered because he lacks 30% DR buff is based on the assumption all skills of all classes are individually balanced, which is not the case. Wizard's energy armor alone gives more mitigation then any barbarian or monk buff that gives damage mitigation.
Well. Teleport gives 30% dr with safe passage for 4 sec. Leap gives 300% armor for 4 sec. That gives a rough estimate among other skill comparisons between classes. Let's say a Wizard in end-game will have ~35% DR with full gear, that is reasonable. Now add 60% armor. 35*0,6= 21% DR. There is, however, a diminish on armor, so let's say it's about 10-15%. It won't be more than that unless there either A) is no dimish, which is not the case, or B ) a end-game character has more than 35% DR by default. If B is the case, the diminishing will be even more substantial and the effect of the additional 60% armor will be even less.
Also, the skills are as strong between the classes, more or less. If that weren't the case, let's say Wizard had a some really strong spells (spells which the other classes could not compeat with) and some spells which weren't. Well, if that was the case (or is, as you claim) the Wizard would be forced to pick certain spells up and leaving certain spells behind in order to play optimally. That doesn't make much sense. To make things simple and answer your question: Shout is just as good as energy armor. They are slightly tweaked for customization and diversity, but they're more or less the same thing.
1. Compare the rune effect of two different skills, with different cooldowns of different classes is an mistake. Leap armor bonus might simply be straight forwadly better then teleport's one. This analysis you did may only be used between two different runes of the same skill
2. Armor have dimish return in terms of DR but no confirmation on it's dimish return over effective HP. Since +armor% is buff over a fixed value, the better your equipament, stronger is the buff. You simply can't tell the amount of armor one character will have in the high end and the amount of DR that bonus will give.
3. Assuming skills are individually balanced is a mistake because different effects have different utilities for each class, depending on the gameplay. An skill does not exist alone, it is used in the context of the class and in conjuction with other dozen skills. What you said do not happen because of different gameplays within the same class. Energy Shield armor bonus is huge but not mandatory for majority of wizards because those usually are ranged character and attacks from distance. They will take hit less oftenly so everything that reduces damage is less useful.
4. You just said 20% = 65% ? Energy Armor is much better then War Cry (in terms of damage reduction).
5. It's mathematical fact. Wizard gets more DR from active skill buffs (20% DR + 65% armor) compared to barbs (70% armor) assuming 5% armor < 20% DR. Adds the fact that wizard's attacks (even melee wizard attacks) have better range then a barb's one and you have a balanced situation.
Wizard (One skill slot and one passive spent):
20% melee DR
45% armor
-20 Arcane Power
Barbarian (Only one skill slot):
30% DR
10% All Resistance
Hey, if I were to choose one of those two, I would pick barbarian. 45% Armor will (with dimish) not be that much in end game. Let's say it's ~10% DR. Even then, barbarian is better. Worth noting is that the barbarian only spent one skill slot while the Wizard spent a skill slot and a passive. Oh, and don't forget Barbarian is during all this boosting the shit out of his allies.
How can you confirm 10% DR is better then 45% Armor ?
In one way or another, the difference between a Wizard that chooses to buff him/her self and a Barbarian are not as large as people initially stated. The Wizard lacks the passive buff, but her active buffs are substantially stronger (+65% armor and 20% melee DR are just huge buffs.
Yeh wizard problably have lower damage mitigation then barbarians but this discrepance is not that high. All this theory about melee wizard being uderpowered because he lacks 30% DR buff is based on the assumption all skills of all classes are individually balanced, which is not the case. Wizard's energy armor alone gives more mitigation then any barbarian or monk buff that gives damage mitigation.
That has to be the worst over generalization I have seen in a long time and I edit and mark papers for a university. You neglected to even account for skill differences. Your math of "lol they have 30% that means melee wiz not possible, lol" is sad. If you actually spent the time to consider the possibilities available to the wizard, you would see that it is not as one-sided as you posted it to be.
Let's go through your invalid points chronologically.
Nerfing Weapon Throw. This was made because the amount of damage possible (if you even attempted to try napkin math here, you'd see) was extremely high. They reduced the %weapon damage on almost all of the Barbarian's abilities, including weapon throw. I hardly see your case for there being no more throw barbarians.
Removing fundamentals. Again, not a very good argument. There are plenty of ways to play a melee DH. What is even more, we do not even know the itemization of D3 yet. A lot of builds that were viable in D2 only became viable because of the items. Quite a short sighted and thought lacking point.
Removing virtuoso = You want a wizard to only use their wands? I do not understand your point. This point made me think that you just want to play random and weird builds for no good apparent reason. While that is your prerogative you cannot expect every single off-shot build you come up with to be optimal or even efficient in killing the minions of D3.
Chakram nerf. So, your point about build diversity and viability loses me here. You think ONE skill should determine the viability of an entire subsection of a type of DH? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. A nerf to chakram, if we're following your logic, does not mean a nerf to all melee DHs, just one of the melee DHs YOU want to play.
I've already touched on the 30% thing, but to reiterate, what? The skill sets and rune choices of the other classes allow for similar mitigation. At a dps cost? Perhaps, but if you were to check any of the 'melee' abilities of those non-stereotypically melee classes, you would notice that the spells have a higher base damage anyways. I don't think you've even tried to think about this issue. Makes me sad.
Great post +1
I will just post a small comparison on the defensive stats of each of the 3 classes we're talking about.
Taking 1 defensive passive skill and one runed active buff that improces defense:
BARBARIAN:
+30% DR
+40% Armor (War Cry; Hardened Wrath rune)
+50% Armor (Though as Nails)
MONK*:
+30% DR
+15% Dodge (Mantra of Evasion)
+15% Dodge (The Guardian's Path)
+20% Armor (Hard Target Rune)
WIZARD:
+20% DR from melee (Blur)
+65% Armor (Energy Armor)
+40% All Resistances (Primatic Armor Rune)
Compared to barbarians the Wizard got only 10% less DR against melee attackers, 25% less Armor but got +40% Elemental Damage Resistances. Given the fact that melee wizards have medium range (even spectral blades hits enemies before they hit you) i think it's fairly balanced. Maybe the barbarian wins out but it's not by a gargantuan margin.
Compare to monk is an bit more difficult because of Dodge. I think we can consider 15% Dogde = 20% Armor in terms of final damage reduction, as those are the proportions in the Armor vs. Dodge trade-off found in Mantra of evasion runes and War Cry runes. So, monk's def buffs is more or less equal to 30% DR + 60% Armor, which is actually lower then the Wizard ones !
Imo the true problem will be physical ranged damage dealers, since blur doesn't protects you. In that case the monk and the barb are truelly much more resistant. Still the Wiz still have the advantage on Elemental Resistances.
Extra attention to armor vs. missiles mods and teleport might be enough to deal with this problem.
Another factor to take in consideration is stats. Truelly, INT does not protects you against melee attacks like DEX and STR. However, Stats is not the only source of armor. There are %physical reduction mods... Since Wizard will stack INT for damage (which gives all resistances) he can trade +elemental resistance mods for physical resistance mods. Barbarians and Monks will have to "spend" mods on elemental resistance while wizard will problably ignore it and focus on physical RES and armor vs. missiles.
I think the true balancing factor here is not the resistance of the melee wizard but it's damage potential and i think it's damage potential is fine. So far Sleet Storm felt the most powerfull spell in the game for me (215% weapon damage, AoE, fairly cheap, slow enemies, has an +20% damage passive, wtf).
If theres any problem with melee wizard is how Energy Armor is an 100% must have in that build. +65% Armor bonus seens hard to ignore. Storm/Ice Armor is close to useless imo.
I personally don't understand the "melee wizard" bit.
What's the point of trying to tie yourself down to skills that are short or melee range only, when you can nuke from afar?
It seems logical that people wanting to melee effectively will make chars specifically for that purpose.
To each their own.
It really is just all about people wanting to work outside of the box. If people had the choice, they would be everything.
It not like that.
The wizard has fairly large set of close range skill: shock pulse, spectral blades, arc lightning (eletrecute rune), sleet storm (rof rune), arcane orbit (arcane orb rune), entropy (desintegrate rune), ice/storm/arcane armor, magic weapon, explosive blast.
The idea behind the melee wizard is try to creat build that make use of those abilities in a coherent manner.
The DR thing feels like a big blow. But I think the balance factor is the passive skills and buffs. Blur (direct 20% melee DR) sounds much stronger then any barbarian damage reduction passive (+50% armor and +x% armor | x = vitality). The Wizard also have much better CC then barbs and monks and CC are potencialized when you're melee. With enough critical hit%, aps and critical mass noone can guess how frequent one wizard can recharge his cooldowns.
I think a melee wizard will work more or less like a "glass canon" barb (one that focus more on offensive passives) but with less damage and more CC.
EDIT: Small comparison between Barbarian, Wizard and Monk. Using one passive and one activie skill for each class (no runes):
BARBARIAN
+30% DR
+20% Armor (War Cry)
+50% Armor (Tough as Nails)
WIZARD
+20% DR (Blur)
+65% Armor (Energy Armor)
MONK
+30% DR
+15% Dodge (Mantra of Evasion)
+15% Dodge (The Guardian's Path)
The wizard is definetly behind, but only for a small amount. He might compensate the difference with better CC abilities, better range options or maybe better damage.
If melee wizard wasnt' suppose to exist he shouldn't have all the melee supports skills in the first place. Misleading skills are terrible, if something exist it must be useful. Replace spectral blades, storm/ice armor, explosive blast and magic weapon with other skills or else people have an legit reason to complain about melee wizard not being good enough.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1. Compare the rune effect of two different skills, with different cooldowns of different classes is an mistake. Leap armor bonus might simply be straight forwadly better then teleport's one. This analysis you did may only be used between two different runes of the same skill
2. Armor have dimish return in terms of DR but no confirmation on it's dimish return over effective HP. Since +armor% is buff over a fixed value, the better your equipament, stronger is the buff. You simply can't tell the amount of armor one character will have in the high end and the amount of DR that bonus will give.
3. Assuming skills are individually balanced is a mistake because different effects have different utilities for each class, depending on the gameplay. An skill does not exist alone, it is used in the context of the class and in conjuction with other dozen skills. What you said do not happen because of different gameplays within the same class. Energy Shield armor bonus is huge but not mandatory for majority of wizards because those usually are ranged character and attacks from distance. They will take hit less oftenly so everything that reduces damage is less useful.
4. You just said 20% = 65% ? Energy Armor is much better then War Cry (in terms of damage reduction).
5. It's mathematical fact. Wizard gets more DR from active skill buffs (20% DR + 65% armor) compared to barbs (70% armor) assuming 5% armor < 20% DR. Adds the fact that wizard's attacks (even melee wizard attacks) have better range then a barb's one and you have a balanced situation.
Here are two melee wizard builds i made:
Crit Melee Wizard: http://us.battle.net...YXOm!agZ!YYYaZZ
Ice Melee Wiard: http://us.battle.net...QRXO!aWZ!ZYaZZc
I think both those builds are inferno material.
How can you confirm 10% DR is better then 45% Armor ?
In one way or another, the difference between a Wizard that chooses to buff him/her self and a Barbarian are not as large as people initially stated. The Wizard lacks the passive buff, but her active buffs are substantially stronger (+65% armor and 20% melee DR are just huge buffs.
Yeh wizard problably have lower damage mitigation then barbarians but this discrepance is not that high. All this theory about melee wizard being uderpowered because he lacks 30% DR buff is based on the assumption all skills of all classes are individually balanced, which is not the case. Wizard's energy armor alone gives more mitigation then any barbarian or monk buff that gives damage mitigation.
Great post +1
I will just post a small comparison on the defensive stats of each of the 3 classes we're talking about.
Taking 1 defensive passive skill and one runed active buff that improces defense:
BARBARIAN:
+30% DR
+40% Armor (War Cry; Hardened Wrath rune)
+50% Armor (Though as Nails)
MONK*:
+30% DR
+15% Dodge (Mantra of Evasion)
+15% Dodge (The Guardian's Path)
+20% Armor (Hard Target Rune)
WIZARD:
+20% DR from melee (Blur)
+65% Armor (Energy Armor)
+40% All Resistances (Primatic Armor Rune)
Compared to barbarians the Wizard got only 10% less DR against melee attackers, 25% less Armor but got +40% Elemental Damage Resistances. Given the fact that melee wizards have medium range (even spectral blades hits enemies before they hit you) i think it's fairly balanced. Maybe the barbarian wins out but it's not by a gargantuan margin.
Compare to monk is an bit more difficult because of Dodge. I think we can consider 15% Dogde = 20% Armor in terms of final damage reduction, as those are the proportions in the Armor vs. Dodge trade-off found in Mantra of evasion runes and War Cry runes. So, monk's def buffs is more or less equal to 30% DR + 60% Armor, which is actually lower then the Wizard ones !
Imo the true problem will be physical ranged damage dealers, since blur doesn't protects you. In that case the monk and the barb are truelly much more resistant. Still the Wiz still have the advantage on Elemental Resistances.
Extra attention to armor vs. missiles mods and teleport might be enough to deal with this problem.
Another factor to take in consideration is stats. Truelly, INT does not protects you against melee attacks like DEX and STR. However, Stats is not the only source of armor. There are %physical reduction mods... Since Wizard will stack INT for damage (which gives all resistances) he can trade +elemental resistance mods for physical resistance mods. Barbarians and Monks will have to "spend" mods on elemental resistance while wizard will problably ignore it and focus on physical RES and armor vs. missiles.
I think the true balancing factor here is not the resistance of the melee wizard but it's damage potential and i think it's damage potential is fine. So far Sleet Storm felt the most powerfull spell in the game for me (215% weapon damage, AoE, fairly cheap, slow enemies, has an +20% damage passive, wtf).
If theres any problem with melee wizard is how Energy Armor is an 100% must have in that build. +65% Armor bonus seens hard to ignore. Storm/Ice Armor is close to useless imo.
It not like that.
The wizard has fairly large set of close range skill: shock pulse, spectral blades, arc lightning (eletrecute rune), sleet storm (rof rune), arcane orbit (arcane orb rune), entropy (desintegrate rune), ice/storm/arcane armor, magic weapon, explosive blast.
The idea behind the melee wizard is try to creat build that make use of those abilities in a coherent manner.
The DR thing feels like a big blow. But I think the balance factor is the passive skills and buffs. Blur (direct 20% melee DR) sounds much stronger then any barbarian damage reduction passive (+50% armor and +x% armor | x = vitality). The Wizard also have much better CC then barbs and monks and CC are potencialized when you're melee. With enough critical hit%, aps and critical mass noone can guess how frequent one wizard can recharge his cooldowns.
I think a melee wizard will work more or less like a "glass canon" barb (one that focus more on offensive passives) but with less damage and more CC.
EDIT: Small comparison between Barbarian, Wizard and Monk. Using one passive and one activie skill for each class (no runes):
BARBARIAN
+30% DR
+20% Armor (War Cry)
+50% Armor (Tough as Nails)
WIZARD
+20% DR (Blur)
+65% Armor (Energy Armor)
MONK
+30% DR
+15% Dodge (Mantra of Evasion)
+15% Dodge (The Guardian's Path)
The wizard is definetly behind, but only for a small amount. He might compensate the difference with better CC abilities, better range options or maybe better damage.