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Here is a good aid for understanding the current economic decision we are faced with. Nixon once said in a press release that "We are all Keynesians now". the kaynes vs hayek issue

Quote from Don_guillotine

If the financial system died, that would make the Vandals' ransacking of Rome a nice walk in the park. It would be anarchy, not anything according to anyones terms. Our entire civilization would be at peril. More than likely, this scenario would result in a totalitarian nanny state, not the other way around.

The system works, but it is sometimes faced with a shock because of retarded politics. With this type of options (anarchy vs. slowly developing the current system) I'd personally choose the latter any day.


Fiat as it is today has not been tried at this scale before. The Chinese currency was handled horribly (and the 18th/19th century versions were small scale). It's totally plausible that it doesn't fail (the Bretton Woods on the other hand was doomed to fail) within the near future.

However, there aren't really any good alternatives. The problem with any metal currency is that there is too little of any given metal. The finite supply inevitably results in a situation where a metal coin is worth more as the metal than the coin itself. And on the other hand a system where the money is made out of silver, but the value of that silver bears little to no relationship to its face value has all the bad sides of a fiat currency but none of its good sides. Besides, silver and gold have real uses in electronics and whatnot these days.


PS:

I would advise anyone not to buy gold. Gold is currently facing a huge bubble. The people that made money with it have sold their gold already. Right now it's a bear market.

Corporatism is a disease that is evident in our government, and there is no way in hell they are just gonna hand it back to us. When we try to take it back they are gonna do everything in their power to hold on to it, they will threaten us with economic collapse and martial law. There is no reasoning with these corporate tyrants, they have a plan to enslave the world and kill billions of people through war, biological attacks, and soft kill tactics so that they and their progeny can inherit the fruits of the earth and live in a scientific paradise. What do you think they are developing in all those top secret military bases and why have we not seen a shred of it leak into the private sector? They are waiting till we are all dead.

That would've more than probably resulted in the death of the financial system, and alongside it, the entire global economy.

Good, if the system doesn't work then it deserves to die, by continually printing more money we are only digging our grave deeper. Better to have the system die on our terms then theirs. The last act of any standing government is to rob it's treasury. When we lose our standing as the world reserve currency that is exactly what is gonna happen. So we need to preemptively cut their resources by closing down the fed and create a gold or silver backed currency. Fiat currency always fails, history has shown that time and time again. Troubled times are ahead, but I'd rather have to grow my own garden and hunt for food than be locked up in some futuristic nanny state prison city.

Quote from Daemaro

Quote from Murderface

and eventually herded into deat.. I mean FEMA camps .

Oh you mean those nice "community centers" with play grounds for children, and barbed wire and wardens? I can't wait.

It'll be so wonderful not having to do anything but watch television all day eat GMO foods and drink the lithium and fluoride tap water. I don't even have to burden my family when I die because they have a nice plastic casket all lined up for me. I hope they have more mercury infused vaccines so I don't get sick. I'm sure the fluoride wont penetrate the blood-brain barrier of my baby and make him retarded.

In the past 100 years, governments have ruined more currencies with their idiotic currency politics than hedge funds have. Devaluation was a common monetary policy tool.

The "problem" with currency trade is that it can not be controlled without strongly hindering people's freedom. Unlike stock trade, trading currency does not require a centralized market. If I had 10,000€ (or any arbitrary amount of euros) and someone else had the equivalent amount of dollars, we could just swap these with no middlemen. Electronic stock trade on the other hand always requires a middleman. Even back at the days of paper stocks, a central authority was required to monitor stock trading to keep it within the confines of law. Currency requires no such special monitoring as forged currency is monitored anyways.

Hedge funds are just risk players. Big ones can make big moves when the situation is right. They can't "ruin a currency" the economic situation favors. They're not that big players. Perhaps most famous example is George Soros' triumph over Bank of England.

I mean sure, today's world is not perfect. We've come a long way from the ultraliberalism of the 19th century. I'd personally prefer a laissez-faire world, but it is not politically feasible.

What I'm most concerned about is those god damn speculators raising the price of my fucking gas. At least limit speculation in terms of large commodities. The little guys get hurt when speculators drive up commodities, it increases the cost of living which is already much too high. Not just in America but everywhere else too.

That's because the banking sector is global. The bailout saved some US banks by paying their debts. Some of those debts naturally were to foreign banks. Just as some foreign banks that received a bailout in Europe had debt to US banks.

So you are saying that it is the American peoples responsibility to pay off bankers whose fraudulent policies bankrupted them? What happened to the free market? This business of too big to fail is dirty and should not be allowed to flourish. The bailout bill had over 1400 pages and was introduced into congress the day before they were to vote on it. They were told separately that if they didn't vote the bill through there would be martial law in America. What kind of bullshit is that? People need to get angry when this sort of shit happens. I mean we are supposed to have a "laissez-faire" market, that is one of the founding principles of this country. It just makes me sick every time I think about it.

I don't feel even a semblance of patriotism on the 4th of July and I don't think I ever have. Sure, there is probably a diehard patriot out there who dons 18th century attire and sings the Star Spangled Banner every time a mortar goes off. He probably burnishes a bayonet too just for the hell of it.

Patriot is derived from patriota meaning countrymen. It means having loyalty to ones people. If you care about your people then it is your duty to make sure they are free of tyranny by doing research, making informed votes, and protesting what you see as a breach of the constitution. If people dont do this they are bound to be castrated, pushed around, and eventually herded into deat.. I mean FEMA camps .

Every country ever founded has had flaws, but none have our constitution. Egyptians enslaved the jews, are the Egyptians supposed to be ashamed of their heritage because of that? By your standard everyone should hate their heritage. Thats exactly what the new world order wants. They want everyone to give up their sovereignty in the name of coming together under one corrupt government without any elected officials. They hate America, England, France, Spain, Germany, and any other country that gives their people any sort of political power. In effect they love China. So be proud of your country or lose it. If you think you can escape by moving to another country, think again. Cause the ones they don't control are always the first on the chopping block.

Patriotism isn't nationalism. Our forefathers were a victim of the times, it was ok to own slaves and it was ok to womanize back then. Does it make them stupid for conforming to the standards of their day? Their ideas of liberty are what is most important. Have you read the constitution? Despite what you have to say about their practices, they were the leading thinkers of their times.

The point is that you should be proud to be an American, we may not have a peaceful history for it is a history filled with the blood of patriots and tyrants, but we do have one thing, and that is freedom.

Masonic beliefs have been manipulated through the years, it started out as a libertarian group and ended as a satanic cult morphed by the most recent masonic literature.

Quote from Umpa

I don't care about some dude thats been dead for hundreds of years. Patriotism is one of the greatest tricks played on humanity.

Life's too short and too important to me to waste my time on something as futile as that. Now if you will excuse me, I'm off to draw stuffs and play GTA and jack some foo's!

That "dude" died so you could live free without the oppression of tyranny. People nowadays mistake having fun and being completely care free as being free, when in reality they are just a bunch of mentally castrated cattle being led to the slaughter. Take fluoridation for instance, here we have a nuclear waste product that in studies increases infant death and bone fractures, being sold to the public as one of the greatest medical advancements of the 20th century. When in reality the owners of the nuclear plants simply didn't want to pay to have it disposed of correctly so they marketed it as the next big thing in dental health and started mass medicating the public with it. I look around in astonishment at my fellow Americans, drifting through their daily lives, unaware that WW3 is on their doorstep. The United States in recent months have been trying to provoke Pakistan into war, our military is dead set to have it out with these people. Meanwhile China is telling us that any attack on Pakistan will be considered an attack on China itself. Do I need to elaborate on the gravity of that statement? How's nuclear war sound? Does it bother you that for the last few years former NSA and CIA have been building fallout bunkers at a record rate?

Quote from Azriel

Patriotism is the ultimate form of pathos. It even surpasses your crying mother and the death of innocent children.

When I kiss the flag of the United States of America, I am actually kissing every crackpot policy that that flag has ever put forth. The reason why they make us start pledging at such a young age is so that we don't, someday, pledge allegiance to another banner as we grow older and realize that the state is not right. They make us recite them before we even understand what they mean.

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

That was the original pledge of allegiance written in 1892. Now, here's the 1954 version:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Before, you were just pledging allegiance to an idea. Now, you're pledging allegiance to a body.

Patriotism isn't a devotion to your government, it is a devotion the the welfare of your fellow citizen. Tell me that is wrong.

I have a real problem with defeatists, they never think they have any sway in the world, but I'm dead sure that if those same defeatists collectively stood up for their ideals we would have true liberty and true prosperity in this world.

I fail to see how speculation is bad. Speculation is just a financial act based on incomplete (aka partially "speculative") information. Information is not always available. Many venture capitalists have helped great things to happen. Since speculation is risky, and calculated risk is profit, speculation is more profitable and as such a normal part of a healthy market.

When speculation is used by enormous hedge funds to trade currencies they can effectively ruin a currency and in effect rob the people who hold the currency. This kind of currency speculation has often been used for economic warfare to create revolutions in countries with unstable economies. These hedge funds usually have the problem of an uncooperative puppet dictator in said country and need to create a revolution so as to have him thrown out by the people. It is often said that we are 9 meals away from revolution, so by ruining the currency of a country they can effectively starve the people into revolt. Then when the dust clears the same individuals who ruined the economy fund the campaign of the next puppet dictator.

I do understand that the current fiat money central banking system is complex as hell and has some issues, but Fed-related claims about the NWO are generally wrong.

That page only refutes that the owners of the new world order aren't foreign which is true, They are mostly American, but you see just because they aren't foreigners doesn't mean they don't have a continuity of agenda, and since the Board of Governors and the FOMC are appointed by the President and congress you can bet they are also in on it as well. The argument that just because the money is given to the federal government means that there is no one making profit from it is absolutely absurd. Remember the bailouts? Under the freedom of info act some concerned individuals obtained the information on where all our money went in the bailout, turns out that trillions went to foreign banks.

Quote from Umpa

I think I just saw a ghost! Long time no see.

I'm not a fan of the government. It just doesn't seem to work. I just want to stay under the radar and let those guys ruin the world on their own. When the ship goes down, I'll jump ship.

Yes indeed, the ghost has returned:P

You might find jumping ship a little hard when martial law is instated and the borders are locked down due to "terrorist activities". Just sayin. It is in our best intrest as a people to stand up for our liberties and not let fascists ruin what our forefathers fought and died for.

Honestly I think marijuana legalization is the smallest issue facing America in these troubled times. Our problem is the federal reserve, speculators, and the credit system. The Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank that has been given the right to print unlimited money and give it to whom ever they ( congress ) feel deserves it( mostly foreign banks ). Speculations should be banned outright, It is nothing but a tool for the ruling class to lord over us with unfair trade advantage. The credit system needs to be trashed since it is a form of indentured slavery and therefore unconstitutional. Everyone in the Council on Foreign Relations, The Bilderberg Group, and The Trilateral Commission need to be tried for treason. The system has been designed to fail by these crooks and when that happens, they will be there with the NAU (North American Union) and a brand new fiat currency and a brand new constitution to save us from ourselves. If there is civil unrest, they will label all the protesters domestic terrorists and have them targeted by death squads just like good ol' Osama. Isn't it great to be an American?

Ron Paul, the main tea party candidate for president is for the federal legalization of marijuana, cocaine, and heroin. He doesn't really care for drugs, he just thinks it should be up to the states to decide what is legal and illegal. He is against the tsa, the patriot act, torture, military intervention in foreign affairs and the privately owned federal reserve. Basically the best presidential candidate ever besides maybe Thomas Jefferson. You've got to be crazy or uninformed to vote for anyone else. If you care about where America and the rest of the world is going to end up the choice is clear. Ron Paul 2012.