Free will is not a violation of absolute benevolence. Does a parent not punish his child to teach them right from wrong? Does a parent not allow his child to fail so that the child can handle future failures? What is a life of suffering compared to eternal happiness?
The truth is that free will is a gift. If you think we would be better off following the will of a all-loving god, then I would encourage you to do just that.
To compare god/allah/yahweh/jesus/whatever to a parent is, to put it kindly, misleading. What parent would burn a child alive for misbehaving? What parent would throw their own child into a lake of lava for not doing as the child is told.
If anything, it is, to paraphrase Mr. Christopher Hitchens, a celestial North Korea, except that when you die, it only gets worse.
As for free will, it isn't a gift, its a requirement for the kind of universe we live in. This four dimensional universe that we happen to inhabit requires that living beings have free will, or at least the free will that you seem to imply.
Isn't Atheism the lack/rejection of belief in deities, hence a-theism? If it isn't deities, what are we rejecting? Would you suggest the term Atheist to reject a belief that Elvis lives?
We are rejecting the ideas put forward by theists as they are demonstrably false. Elvis isn't a proposed deity, so that wouldn't follow. My concern is that A-theism is misrepresented as A-deism. One is certain and the other is probable, but not entirely certain.
Well obviously we reject the theistic deity rather then the deistic deity, otherwise we would be adeists. (Does such a group exist? Now I'm curious! Lol.)
Anyway, I am just pointing out that the Wikipedia article is correct, as it's a specific belief we reject rather then generic belief.
Anyway, I view Atheism as a rejection of the idea of deities. Personally, I think it's impossible to define it for all Atheists, as it's such a wide-reaching term.
Theists hold a view of gods which are active and order the physical reality we can see and feel. It is easy to disprove them because every time we explain physical phenomena, their god recedes further into the necessary "god of the gaps," position. Rejecting the theist god is easy because it is nothing more than rational. Don't reject reality and substitute the god and you're already an atheist.
However, the deist god is not so easily dismissed. It need not interact with the universe at all. It's just a celestial tea-pot in another dimension. We need not suppose it to exist, but we need not refute it either. As I see it, a deist god is completely inconsequential.
So when it comes down to it the rejection is not of a deity (although we must reject theist deities), but of theism.
Obviously there is the basic "We do not believe that theistic deities exist." stance that defines the umbrella term of Atheist, but, from what I've seen, just like with Christianity's denominations and Islam's sects, Atheism also has many views that fall under the term Atheist. I'm not saying that a religious person could be classified as an Atheist, just that there are many views that fall under the title Atheist.
As for the god of the gaps, according to the pope evolution is true. This means no Adam and Eve, which means no original sin, which means no need for Jesus to come and save us all from said original sin, which means no need for Christianity. >.> That's one helluva gap... Lol!
What should be mentioned here, or at least understood, is that the rejection of BELIEF is foremost and the rejection of DEITIES denotes a rejection of god figures and concepts which are empirically false (ie. the Judeo-Christian god). In the view of the atheist, the universe as we know it functions without such an entity and there is no reason to suppose it exists since the evidence is not there. We do not simply shut our eyes to future knowledge and say "there can be no such thing," but rather we suggest "none of those things you've made up are evident," and we therefor find the concept to have no meaning.
If we were to arbitrarily name anything outside of reality (something that doesn't make much sense in and of itself) "god," it would not fit any definition of the word. A god which has no connection what-so-ever with empirical reality is not a god. Even if it were, there would be no way of knowing about it because it would be absolutely divorced from the reality we inhabit. If there were empirical evidence for some kind of god (befitting the connotations of the word), it would render atheism null and void because no belief would be required in order to know that a deity existed.
Atheists are often lampooned for having a belief of their own (there must be no god), but that is not true of a learned atheist. The group making up a belief of their own is actually the agnostics. Their supposition that mankind can never gain the knowledge necessary to confirm or refute the existence of a "god," or "gods," makes them irrational believers in their own right.
TL;DR: Atheism is the rejection of belief. The statement that we reject "belief in deities," is redundant and misleading.
Isn't Atheism the lack/rejection of belief in deities, hence a-theism? If it isn't deities, what are we rejecting? Would you suggest the term Atheist to reject a belief that Elvis lives?
I'm not being a smartass. I honestly don't understand. You say that Atheism is just a rejection of belief, then go on as to what constitutes godhood. Then you end saying that Atheism is a rejection of beliefs. Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding a simple concept, and considering its 4:15AM right now that is very possible, but I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here.
Anyway, I view Atheism as a rejection of the idea of deities. Personally, I think it's impossible to define it for all Atheists, as it's such a wide-reaching term.
Here is my proof. You want a cookie, she gets you a cookie.
The rest are wanna be gods.
I'll let George Carlin rebuttle this:
"Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the Resume of a Supreme Being, This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say 'this guy' because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a god, it has to be a man.
No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results."
For a video of it, click here. Skip to about the 2 minute mark.
"Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up."
This is the most important quote from you. This alludes even more to what I was initially suggesting. You put yourself in the role of the bullied. Psychologically this makes perfect sense concerning your view on Christianity. While you may not think you are picking on anybody, you cannot deny that people tend to think that you do in fact have disdain for Christianity. In that quote you are showcasing yourself as a person who has been prosecuted by Christians. There's got to be something there. It seems like it has to be more personal than just a bunch of online arguments.
You misunderstand me. I don't mean to say that I personally am bullied. Non-religious in general have, for centuries been the ones at gun and sword point. Recently religion has begun to loose it's grip on the world and it is freaking out.
And yes, Atheism has been persecuted by Christianity, this is a fact. I have not, because most of my life I was on the religious side, and sense my "coming out of the closet" I have had no animosity towards me (and thus give none) from any Christians in my town.
I'm sorry but what you say about your desires and what you actually say generally is very contradictory. There's nothing objective at all about your stance.
My stance has come from an objective look at the world. I don't think I said my stance was objective? (Maybe I did? My memory becomes worse and worse every day...) Anyway, my stance is anything but objective. That being said, if there was empirical evidence of the existence of the god of the Bible, Quran, TaNaKh, or Bagavad Gita, then I would convert to that religion immediately. The chances of that evidence ever showing up, though, are very very slim from what I can tell. But if it does, I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.
I think "a thirst for information" would be more appropriate than "a thirst for knowledge". It almost sounds like you went from one extreme to another. This may not be true, but the way you mock the religion presents this image of you(at least to me) that says you're a person with such an extreme view that you have zero respect for the Christian religion specifically. Which doesn't look like an objective stance at all. It looks more like you just picked a different side to be on, so you mock the other side.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the difference in information and knowledge?
And Christianity is not alone. I have similar views of Islam as well. I am currently studying Judaism and Hinduism. If either of them make sense and agree with the world, then I will convert. If they are in opposition to the world, then I will laugh at them. This is the only way I can deal with absurd claims.
I guess a good analogy would be a football player and a geek. You're more reminiscent of the football player who mocks the geek for not being macho like him. As opposed to the football player who knows what it's like to be on the other side. They're both football players, but one has this distinct and delusional sense of identity.
Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up.
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
Well, Richard Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 where 1 is absolutely believe in any deity, and 7 is absolutely no belief in any deity. He puts himself at 6.5, but I do disagree with him. I'm closer actually to 6. While I think there is no deity, and I am almost 100% certain there is no deity, I cannot know for certain, and the uncertainty is enough to keep me wondering. Does that make sense?
But. I know I can't know any of that. And, if none of that is true, that's ok. I'll have a wonderful eternal rest. I don't really know where I'm going with this honestly...I just don't understand all the animosity. People will be people. Of course they will willingly believe something they have no true knowledge of. That's no reason to pick on them. As a whole, we're not very intelligent.
i condemn christianity as a whole for the same reasons i condemn black people as a whole
93% that ive met are fucked up, its just easier to hate them as a whole.
why do stereotypes exist? because they are TRUTHHHHHH.......................... most of the time
That's...not cool...
Go somewhere else and talk about that, because that's not right. There are very good people that are Christian, just as there are very good people that are black.
I just gotta know, did a bunch of Christians bully you in elementary or something Linkx? You seem almost obsessed with slandering their name and reputation as a believable faith. I'm not saying your actions are wrong. I just find it interesting that you have such a...fervor hatred for them.
Actually, believe it or not, I was very religious when I was younger. I would even talk other people into accepting Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior. I was quite a young little missionary. Lol.
I just grew out of it, just like I grew out of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. I think science and a thirst for knowledge had a big part to do with it.
And I don't have a hatred for Christians, I just want people to look at it objectively, just as they would anything else.
Acts 8:9-11 Now a certain man named Simon had previously practised magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he was someone great. 10All of them, from the least to the greatest, listened to him eagerly, saying, ‘This man is the power of God that is called Great.’ 11And they listened eagerly to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.
Doesn't say that he was wrong for practicing magic.
Acts 8:21 You have no part or share in this, for your heart is not right before God.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21envy,* drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Acts 19:18-19 Also many of those who became believers confessed and disclosed their practices. 19A number of those who practised magic collected their books and burned them publicly; when the value of these books* was calculated, it was found to come to fifty thousand silver coins. 20So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.
Revelations 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,* so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.
Acts: What does "sorcerer" mean in that time period? (I ask because words today can mean vastly different things then back then. Hell, words today can mean vastly different things then they did 50 years ago. Hello, queer?)
Galatians: So we are putting sorcery on the same level as the basic building block of the American Capitalistic economic system, envy and jealousy? So then America in general is just evil according to the Bible?
Acts: There is no such thing as magic, unless you consider Harry Potter. This just means they gathered their pagan, non-christian books and had a book burning. Hocus pocus.... Lol....
Revelations: Fuck that, I love my dog! But seriously, we are comparing murder, where one person ends the life of another, to sorcery, the practice of "magic" which is essentially another form of prayer? Really?
When the BIble says to do one thing, and you are doing another, you are not following the Bible. When you are told to turn the other cheek, and instead you go and blow the brains out of Osama Bin Laden, that's not a Christian thing to do.
Did I kill Osama? I don't remember that, and no I believe the bible says only self defense is okay to preserve yourself, so yeah if someone makes a practice of killing people offensively then they have wandered from the Christian path I suppose.
So the Military is anti-Christian?
And you know I don't mean you as in Daemaro killed Osama.
That depends on the persons individual interpretation of self defense also though, I'm not going to condemn anyone.
You can only stretch self defense so far. Going to the other side of the globe to kill people because they hurt another person that just happens to be in the same continent as you and pay taxes to the same government as you is not the definition of self defense. (Again, when i say "you" here I don't mean Daemaro.)
Link that stuff was in the old testament, Christians are taught to follow the New Testament, where Jesus cleansed all food. Yes infact we do pick and choose that's what Christianity is. If you chose not to pick and choose then Christianity wouldn't exist. The old testament and new testament are vastly different.
So then, you agree that the passages you quoted have nothing to do with the conversation, or with whether or not Hitler's spiritual actions were in any way in opposition to his Christian faith? If Christians are taught to follow the New Testament instead of the Old Testament, then either you have some passages in the New Testament that says he cannot (Which I do not know of, and he may not of known of) or it is completely permissible in the Christian faith to play with wee gee boards and go see psychics and other such things.
Also doctors work with science not with supernatural mystic powers as far as I know. Whether that is against the bible is up to the branch of Christianity. You lump Christianity together like its all a 100% literal interpretation of the bible. There are varying degrees and different interpretations that's why there are so many branches.
When the BIble says to do one thing, and you are doing another, you are not following the Bible. When you are told to turn the other cheek, and instead you go and blow the brains out of Osama Bin Laden, that's not a Christian thing to do.
There are plenty more but if you're saying it has to be one of the ten commandments to count then that's ridiculous.
I'm not saying that it has to be in the Ten Commandments, I'm just saying that it has to be in the Bible. And if we go with books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy, then Christians should never be caught going to Captain D's/Long John Silvers or wearing any form of polyester.
Yea, that basically means that if you void Hitler's Christianity, then your Christianity is void for wearing polyester.
We cannot pick and choose. If you choose a religion, you have to accept the entire religion, not bits and pieces.
Christianity like most other religions is about not worshiping another god, object, or being and not preying or putting faith into false things. Which Hitler did by putting his faith not in God (or not just God), and into sorcery/witchcraft/artifacts/demons/psychics all of the other stuff, which is in stark opposition to the overlying theme of a religion and Christianity.
Similar to how Christians today put their faith not in god but in doctors when they get sick? (Rather then killing one bird and dipping another bird into the blood of the first bird to cure such-and-such illness, you go to a doctor like a sane and rational human being..) This, too, is in stark opposition to the Christian god.
It's not like God couldn't do better. God could have assembled the Bible himself, but he chose to do it through people. I can't tell you why He choose to do that - He is God and I am not.
Then why did he not do better? Why did he let his thoughts and views get so contradicted by man? Why did he allow his name and his word to become synonymous with so much bloodshed and destruction over the ages?
Or does he even care? If he is up there, he is either evil, or he doesn't care. Those two are the only two answers I can come up with after reading the Bible.
I am a Christian. I don't believe the Bible blindly. I actually study the Bible. There are thousands of secular references that point to the accuracy and validity of the Bible. Take the wall of Jerrico for example. The Bible says that the wall of Jerrico crumbled onto itself - not due to a siege or an earthquake, but by itself. Modern research supports this.
According to Kathleen Kenyon, the one who excavated the site, it was either an Earthquake or nomadic raiders that caused it to fall at the time I assume you are speaking of. (It fell multiple times.) I am inclined to believe her over you as she was actually there. No offense.
There are numerous cultures, that did not believe in the God of Israel, that have a record of this event. Ultimately, however, no matter how many arguments are brought on the table, faith is still required to believe. I know why I believe, and I know why I have not "picked the wrong god".
People can argue against the Bible, but they cannot argue a changed life. My life is changed, I am changed. My relationship with God is so much more than worshiping Him. It is a fulfilling, rewarding relationship and it was the best decision that I ever made when I accepted Christ into my life.
I respect your position, because like I said, everyone has a choice. I have made mine and you have made yours. Yet the question remains, which didn't consider - at least in your reply...
What if I am right?
If you are right then your god is not worth worshiping because he would send good people to a place of fire and pain and suffering and torture and torment forever and ever.
But, again, what if we both are wrong and Allah is the one true god? Or Krishna? Or Zeus? Or any number of the other gods and goddesses of the planet? Are you prepared to go to hell because of the cruel roll of the dice brought you to a land of Christian majority instead of the true god of Allah?
Pascals Wager fails hard.
Additionally, quoting scripture to somebody that does not believe in it does nothing for your case.
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Oh yes.... Science professors never use metaphors to explain scientific concepts to people just learning them? I guess all educators you encountered just assumed their students were on their same level.... damn what shitty teachers eh?
I learned a lot from my teachers. But they always put the facts out on the table and let us digest it.
I've never met any scientist that used metaphors to explain why two hydrogen and an oxygen make water. Ever.
Dealing with the occult is in direct opposition with the bible. I don't care what Richard Dawkins says, if you're dabbling in every piece of occult intelligence you can get your hands on, you're not Christian. If you molest a child, you're not Christian. This isn't to say you can't atone for your sins and become a Christian again but it's clear he didn't do that since he committed suicide.
As long as the occult you are dabbling in is not contradictory to the rules of Christianity, then it's not direct opposition. There are some occult that is, obviously, but there is other occult that is not. Saying that all occult is opposition to Christianity is like saying all rectangles are squares. (Bad example, but you get the idea.)
You just like to use Hitler as a Christian scapegoat. "Look how bad Christianity is! Hitler was Christian!" Find someone who actually claimed to be Christian and at least somewhat practiced it. Pick Jim Jones, or the guy that founded the Heaven's Gate cult, Jeffrey Dahmer, David Berkowitz, Stalin, or Ted Bundy.
Not everybody knows who Jim Jones is, or who Jeffrey Dahmer is, or who many of them are. (And Stalin was an Atheist to the best of my knowledge.) The reason I use the Christian Adolf Hitler is because there is no documented evidence of him ever renouncing his faith or of ever loosing his faith. And until somebody invents something that can read minds, we can only go by what he has said.
They all killed people, the bible, especially the old testament condones killing people under certain circumstances. It DOES NOT EVER condone worshiping false idols, trying to gain the power of god, trying to converse with supernatural beings and demons, or any of the other occult stuff Hitler was a part of. Don't make him the poster child of Christianity gone wrong just to suit your needs its a far, far stretch and there are plenty of other people that fit the bill.
Solomon conversed, and even controlled, demons. Just sayin'. And if the Bible does not say "Thou shall not do this" then it isn't against the Bible. Not condoning is not the same as condemning something. (You know, like how the Bible made it very clear to never, ever, wear polyester, eat shellfish, work on sunday, or touch the skin of a pig. Important stuff like that.)
And he's not the posterchild of Christianity gone wrong, that's the pope. ;D
No, but seriously the main reason why I use him is because out of all the evil Christians, he is the most well known. Does that mean all Christians are bad? Of course not. There are many good ones. (And some not so good, but who have their hearts in the right place.)
And just as an aside, I would laugh if it turns out that I am wrong about religion and I go to hell to suffer for all eternity, while Adolf Hitler is up in heaven.
And as another aside, nice to see you again Daemaro.
Dinosaurs existed before everything else then they dissapeared. Mainstream science tells you that it was because of asteroid but it is what they believe and may not the be case.The flood is an event that happened thousands of years ago. It was so dramatic that it changed people lives and they wrote in down in the bible. Thats about it, no Noahs or whatever else (religious) there is.
So...why is there not a shred of evidence of any global flood?
And please, don't go quoting scripture or religious website. Kthx.
The Earth is not 4.5 bil years old, there are research movies that are not mainstream and they show you with some radio active stuff inside the rocks. This radio active substance can only be preserved in the rocks if they were to be created instantly. If the planet is 4.5 bil years old, this stuff should not be in the rocks but dissapear.
What substance are you talking about. If you tell me, I can clear up the misunderstanding for you.
The garden of eden is the place where humans were created. In the bible they say "man was created from dirt and the woman from mans bone (i don't know english word). But really this place was something like laboratory that created man and woman. Since they are smart beings didnt want to listen to someone else but follow their own path and so they were trown out of eden. The apple was representation of this moment and god was not really a god but a intelligent creature from another world.
Oh hell... You are talking about the game Assassins Creed, arn't you!?
Boo!
Yea, after reading the rest of your post, it looks like you are going off Assassins Creed lore, rather then real history.
Do you know who the Jews are? Religious group of people
Do you know why Hitler wanted to kill the jews? His view of the Bible led him to believe Jesus wanted him to kill the Jews. (And gays, homos, gypsies, blacks, etc.)
Or Egypt pharaoh didnt want to release them? They were his slaves, aka his property. In his view, it's the same as asking why you didn't want to throw all your computers away.
Why in his laters State of the Union, Obama said : We will protect U.S. and Israel.He has to cater to the pro-israel crowd to be reelected. Obviously.
Why some people want to kill or defend the jews?They believe the Bible and don't want Armageddon to happen.
Why they are called Jewish Race, not religion.Very good P.R. They actually are a religion, and a culture in much the same way Islam is a religion and a culture.
Why if you are not Jewish enough (DNA wise) you are not considered jew?Ego
Why they are the richest people in the world? Back in the Middle Ages the Pope disallowed Christians from opening banks and such, but Jews were not under the control of the Pope so they could do so. This wealth has followed them ever sense.
Why is a Russian closer to German (DNA wise) but Jewish DNA is way different from everyone else? Same reason why Native Americans are closer DNA wise to Russians then Europeans.
Why Jewish race is considered to be the survivor of the War of the gods in some old papers? I actually don't have an answer to this. I've never heard of a "war of the gods". (Aside from the comic and the movie.) I feel less smart now... =(
Edit: Why if a jew marry non jew is considered crime? Where is it a crime?
I find it rather interesting
The Bible doesn't say commune with demons, try to contact aliens, cult rituals, prove the lineage of the Aryan race came from Atlantis and find magical artifacts.
The Bible also doesn't say to play Diablo 3, eat Big Macs, drive Ford Trucks, and go biking with friends. Just because you do something that isn't in the BIble doesn't make you a non-believer.
As for communing with Demons, there is one book that has King Solomon going and fighting and controlling demons that didn't make it into the Bible during the Council of Nicaea. (This book has nothing to do with the argument. I just think it's neat. Lol.)
None of that is a good argument. I can claim I'm a cow if I eat hay and act like one, but then when I have a steak and a can of coke does that make me a cow still?
Or something a little less absurd. If I claim to be atheist, 100%, I do not accept the existence of God but then I pray, am I still an atheist?
I have a friend who is an Atheist. She still prays though. It's not to talk to any superhero deity out there, but rather as a form of meditation or something. But she is still a praying Atheist. So yes, you can be an Atheist and still pray.
When people say one thing and do another you're no longer in that group. When you are in a religion and you do things in STARK contrast to what that religion teaches, you're not really part of it. I believe he was RAISED Christian.
As Richard Dawkins said, we can only look at his upbringing and his personal claims. For us to claim to know what was in his heart would be tantamount to claiming to know the mind of god.
We never came to a conclusion on Adolf Hitler's true views. And it is impossible to say that he felt this way or that way in his heart. The same argument could be used with Osama Bin Laden. He wasn't a "true Muslim", he just used Islam to further his goals. The Pope and the priests were not "true Catholics", they just used Catholicism to molest little children. Etc. All we can do is take his Catholic upbringing and his repeated use of Jesus and God in his books and speeches and accept that he made the claim that he was Christian, and furthermore Roman Catholic.
Neither religion(god) nor science(mainstream science) should be considered reliable source of information.
Still the bible (the book and its contents not the religious crap) is probably the most accurate history book
ever existed and it can answer many questions if know how to read between the lines and have
a lil bit of imagination to interpret the information.
Lolwut?
The Bible is the most accurate history book that ever existed?
So...did Noah's flood happen before or after the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs? For that matter, how is the Earth ~4.5 billion years old when the universe is only 6 to 8 billion years old? Also, how have we kept from inbreeding to death if we started out with the genes from only two people?
You are correct, I believe that the Bible is the innerant word of God. The humans that decided what texts were included in the Bible were moved by the Holy Spirit when they were making that decision. Of course in order to believe the statements in the previous two sentences, faith in God is a prerequisite.
So the lord god's best way to make his holy book was to convince a bunch of people to go and vote on which books they like the best? (Most of which that became cannon contradict each other, mind you.) This is the best that an omnipotent, omniscient deity can do?
I gotta say, if that's true, I am disappointing in your god. Really, if he exists, I feel bad for him. I really, really do.
If am wrong, and I am convinced I am not, and there is no God, then I have lived a happy, full, life and hopefully have made other peoples lives better in the process.
If you are wrong and Allah is the lord god, then you will burn in hell forever and ever and ever, without even the courtesy of a single coffee break.
But if I am right, then you are wasting your life worshiping some imaginary friend.
It is a fact that the flood never happened. It is a fact that creation as the Bible claims did not happen. It is a fact that the universe did not come into existence in 6 days. (Resting on the 7th.) These are facts, because we have evidnece that prove otherwise.
^^^And what evidence is that LinkX? And who is this 'we' you speak of? I've never seen any existence of your 'facts'. If it were so apparently clear that these events did not occur how come I've never seen evidence? Just saying...
We have found the flood that the Bible speaks of. It was a small flood that flooded out most of the area, a far cry from a global flood. The most likely happening was that a merchant went and wrote it down, obviously making himself look better. It then changed over time until it was a world wide flood and he was a hero.
As for the fact that the universe not coming into existence in 6 days, explain to me why it took your god three whole days to make our solar system, but just one day to make all the other solar systems and all the other galaxies in the universe? Please? (Not evidence, but I really am curious why it takes three days to make Earth, but it takes one day to make everything else.)
In my opinion only ignorant Christians take the bible at literal face value. Scientists and preachers both teach using metaphors. It's a simple way to make it so people can wrap their minds around concepts.
No. When a scientist says that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, that's not a metaphor. When a scientist says that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, that's not a metaphor.
And religion used to not be metaphors. The only reason they are now is because Science is learning about the universe. Religion has to backstep and say "Oh, haha, that seven day creation thing? We were kidding, it was actually a metaphor! Sorry for the miscommunication all these hundreds of years!"
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To compare god/allah/yahweh/jesus/whatever to a parent is, to put it kindly, misleading. What parent would burn a child alive for misbehaving? What parent would throw their own child into a lake of lava for not doing as the child is told.
If anything, it is, to paraphrase Mr. Christopher Hitchens, a celestial North Korea, except that when you die, it only gets worse.
As for free will, it isn't a gift, its a requirement for the kind of universe we live in. This four dimensional universe that we happen to inhabit requires that living beings have free will, or at least the free will that you seem to imply.
Well obviously we reject the theistic deity rather then the deistic deity, otherwise we would be adeists. (Does such a group exist? Now I'm curious! Lol.)
Anyway, I am just pointing out that the Wikipedia article is correct, as it's a specific belief we reject rather then generic belief.
Obviously there is the basic "We do not believe that theistic deities exist." stance that defines the umbrella term of Atheist, but, from what I've seen, just like with Christianity's denominations and Islam's sects, Atheism also has many views that fall under the term Atheist. I'm not saying that a religious person could be classified as an Atheist, just that there are many views that fall under the title Atheist.
As for the god of the gaps, according to the pope evolution is true. This means no Adam and Eve, which means no original sin, which means no need for Jesus to come and save us all from said original sin, which means no need for Christianity. >.> That's one helluva gap... Lol!
Isn't Atheism the lack/rejection of belief in deities, hence a-theism? If it isn't deities, what are we rejecting? Would you suggest the term Atheist to reject a belief that Elvis lives?
I'm not being a smartass. I honestly don't understand. You say that Atheism is just a rejection of belief, then go on as to what constitutes godhood. Then you end saying that Atheism is a rejection of beliefs. Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding a simple concept, and considering its 4:15AM right now that is very possible, but I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here.
Anyway, I view Atheism as a rejection of the idea of deities. Personally, I think it's impossible to define it for all Atheists, as it's such a wide-reaching term.
I'll let George Carlin rebuttle this:
"Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the Resume of a Supreme Being, This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say 'this guy' because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a god, it has to be a man.
No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results."
For a video of it, click here. Skip to about the 2 minute mark.
You misunderstand me. I don't mean to say that I personally am bullied. Non-religious in general have, for centuries been the ones at gun and sword point. Recently religion has begun to loose it's grip on the world and it is freaking out.
And yes, Atheism has been persecuted by Christianity, this is a fact. I have not, because most of my life I was on the religious side, and sense my "coming out of the closet" I have had no animosity towards me (and thus give none) from any Christians in my town.
Guess I could of worded that line better though.
My stance has come from an objective look at the world. I don't think I said my stance was objective? (Maybe I did? My memory becomes worse and worse every day...) Anyway, my stance is anything but objective. That being said, if there was empirical evidence of the existence of the god of the Bible, Quran, TaNaKh, or Bagavad Gita, then I would convert to that religion immediately. The chances of that evidence ever showing up, though, are very very slim from what I can tell. But if it does, I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the difference in information and knowledge?
And Christianity is not alone. I have similar views of Islam as well. I am currently studying Judaism and Hinduism. If either of them make sense and agree with the world, then I will convert. If they are in opposition to the world, then I will laugh at them. This is the only way I can deal with absurd claims.
Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up.
Well, Richard Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 where 1 is absolutely believe in any deity, and 7 is absolutely no belief in any deity. He puts himself at 6.5, but I do disagree with him. I'm closer actually to 6. While I think there is no deity, and I am almost 100% certain there is no deity, I cannot know for certain, and the uncertainty is enough to keep me wondering. Does that make sense?
I don't think I am picking on anybody?
That's...not cool...
Go somewhere else and talk about that, because that's not right. There are very good people that are Christian, just as there are very good people that are black.
Very, very uncool dude.
Actually, believe it or not, I was very religious when I was younger. I would even talk other people into accepting Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior. I was quite a young little missionary. Lol.
I just grew out of it, just like I grew out of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. I think science and a thirst for knowledge had a big part to do with it.
And I don't have a hatred for Christians, I just want people to look at it objectively, just as they would anything else.
Doesn't say that he was wrong for practicing magic.
Acts: What does "sorcerer" mean in that time period? (I ask because words today can mean vastly different things then back then. Hell, words today can mean vastly different things then they did 50 years ago. Hello, queer?)
Galatians: So we are putting sorcery on the same level as the basic building block of the American Capitalistic economic system, envy and jealousy? So then America in general is just evil according to the Bible?
Acts: There is no such thing as magic, unless you consider Harry Potter. This just means they gathered their pagan, non-christian books and had a book burning. Hocus pocus.... Lol....
Revelations: Fuck that, I love my dog! But seriously, we are comparing murder, where one person ends the life of another, to sorcery, the practice of "magic" which is essentially another form of prayer? Really?
If we dismiss the Old Testament, we have to be careful not to turn around and use the Old Testament.
So the Military is anti-Christian?
And you know I don't mean you as in Daemaro killed Osama.
You can only stretch self defense so far. Going to the other side of the globe to kill people because they hurt another person that just happens to be in the same continent as you and pay taxes to the same government as you is not the definition of self defense. (Again, when i say "you" here I don't mean Daemaro.)
God hates Unicorns. Why else would they not be on the Ark!? Lol.
Trolololol.
So then, you agree that the passages you quoted have nothing to do with the conversation, or with whether or not Hitler's spiritual actions were in any way in opposition to his Christian faith? If Christians are taught to follow the New Testament instead of the Old Testament, then either you have some passages in the New Testament that says he cannot (Which I do not know of, and he may not of known of) or it is completely permissible in the Christian faith to play with wee gee boards and go see psychics and other such things.
When the BIble says to do one thing, and you are doing another, you are not following the Bible. When you are told to turn the other cheek, and instead you go and blow the brains out of Osama Bin Laden, that's not a Christian thing to do.
I had KFC. I win.
Oh god, the Big Box Variety Meal! <3 NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!!
He's still in the Bible, and if Christians are going to use Leviticus and Deuteronomy, then I can use Solomon.
I'm not saying that it has to be in the Ten Commandments, I'm just saying that it has to be in the Bible. And if we go with books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy, then Christians should never be caught going to Captain D's/Long John Silvers or wearing any form of polyester.
Yea, that basically means that if you void Hitler's Christianity, then your Christianity is void for wearing polyester.
We cannot pick and choose. If you choose a religion, you have to accept the entire religion, not bits and pieces.
Similar to how Christians today put their faith not in god but in doctors when they get sick? (Rather then killing one bird and dipping another bird into the blood of the first bird to cure such-and-such illness, you go to a doctor like a sane and rational human being..) This, too, is in stark opposition to the Christian god.
Comparing Hitler's Christian faith to a Vegan that eats meat is like comparing an apple to a television. They are nowhere near similar.
Then why did he not do better? Why did he let his thoughts and views get so contradicted by man? Why did he allow his name and his word to become synonymous with so much bloodshed and destruction over the ages?
Or does he even care? If he is up there, he is either evil, or he doesn't care. Those two are the only two answers I can come up with after reading the Bible.
According to Kathleen Kenyon, the one who excavated the site, it was either an Earthquake or nomadic raiders that caused it to fall at the time I assume you are speaking of. (It fell multiple times.) I am inclined to believe her over you as she was actually there. No offense.
If you are right then your god is not worth worshiping because he would send good people to a place of fire and pain and suffering and torture and torment forever and ever.
But, again, what if we both are wrong and Allah is the one true god? Or Krishna? Or Zeus? Or any number of the other gods and goddesses of the planet? Are you prepared to go to hell because of the cruel roll of the dice brought you to a land of Christian majority instead of the true god of Allah?
Pascals Wager fails hard.
Additionally, quoting scripture to somebody that does not believe in it does nothing for your case.
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I learned a lot from my teachers. But they always put the facts out on the table and let us digest it.
I've never met any scientist that used metaphors to explain why two hydrogen and an oxygen make water. Ever.
As long as the occult you are dabbling in is not contradictory to the rules of Christianity, then it's not direct opposition. There are some occult that is, obviously, but there is other occult that is not. Saying that all occult is opposition to Christianity is like saying all rectangles are squares. (Bad example, but you get the idea.)
Not everybody knows who Jim Jones is, or who Jeffrey Dahmer is, or who many of them are. (And Stalin was an Atheist to the best of my knowledge.) The reason I use the Christian Adolf Hitler is because there is no documented evidence of him ever renouncing his faith or of ever loosing his faith. And until somebody invents something that can read minds, we can only go by what he has said.
Solomon conversed, and even controlled, demons. Just sayin'. And if the Bible does not say "Thou shall not do this" then it isn't against the Bible. Not condoning is not the same as condemning something. (You know, like how the Bible made it very clear to never, ever, wear polyester, eat shellfish, work on sunday, or touch the skin of a pig. Important stuff like that.)
And he's not the posterchild of Christianity gone wrong, that's the pope. ;D
No, but seriously the main reason why I use him is because out of all the evil Christians, he is the most well known. Does that mean all Christians are bad? Of course not. There are many good ones. (And some not so good, but who have their hearts in the right place.)
And just as an aside, I would laugh if it turns out that I am wrong about religion and I go to hell to suffer for all eternity, while Adolf Hitler is up in heaven.
And as another aside, nice to see you again Daemaro.
So...why is there not a shred of evidence of any global flood?
And please, don't go quoting scripture or religious website. Kthx.
What substance are you talking about. If you tell me, I can clear up the misunderstanding for you.
Oh hell... You are talking about the game Assassins Creed, arn't you!?
Boo!
Yea, after reading the rest of your post, it looks like you are going off Assassins Creed lore, rather then real history.
My answers in bold.
The Bible also doesn't say to play Diablo 3, eat Big Macs, drive Ford Trucks, and go biking with friends. Just because you do something that isn't in the BIble doesn't make you a non-believer.
As for communing with Demons, there is one book that has King Solomon going and fighting and controlling demons that didn't make it into the Bible during the Council of Nicaea. (This book has nothing to do with the argument. I just think it's neat. Lol.)
Horses have been fed horse meat before.
I have a friend who is an Atheist. She still prays though. It's not to talk to any superhero deity out there, but rather as a form of meditation or something. But she is still a praying Atheist. So yes, you can be an Atheist and still pray.
Nope, but unlike the Hitler issue or the Praying issue, eating a hamburger is in absolute opposition to being Vegan.
As Richard Dawkins said, we can only look at his upbringing and his personal claims. For us to claim to know what was in his heart would be tantamount to claiming to know the mind of god.
OVERRULED!
We never came to a conclusion on Adolf Hitler's true views. And it is impossible to say that he felt this way or that way in his heart. The same argument could be used with Osama Bin Laden. He wasn't a "true Muslim", he just used Islam to further his goals. The Pope and the priests were not "true Catholics", they just used Catholicism to molest little children. Etc. All we can do is take his Catholic upbringing and his repeated use of Jesus and God in his books and speeches and accept that he made the claim that he was Christian, and furthermore Roman Catholic.
Therefore, he was Christian.
Lolwut?
The Bible is the most accurate history book that ever existed?
So...did Noah's flood happen before or after the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs? For that matter, how is the Earth ~4.5 billion years old when the universe is only 6 to 8 billion years old? Also, how have we kept from inbreeding to death if we started out with the genes from only two people?
Just curious.
Salutations! Welcome to the forum!
So the lord god's best way to make his holy book was to convince a bunch of people to go and vote on which books they like the best? (Most of which that became cannon contradict each other, mind you.) This is the best that an omnipotent, omniscient deity can do?
I gotta say, if that's true, I am disappointing in your god. Really, if he exists, I feel bad for him. I really, really do.
If you are wrong and Allah is the lord god, then you will burn in hell forever and ever and ever, without even the courtesy of a single coffee break.
But if I am right, then you are wasting your life worshiping some imaginary friend.
So, what happens if you pick the wrong god?
We have found the flood that the Bible speaks of. It was a small flood that flooded out most of the area, a far cry from a global flood. The most likely happening was that a merchant went and wrote it down, obviously making himself look better. It then changed over time until it was a world wide flood and he was a hero.
As for the fact that the universe not coming into existence in 6 days, explain to me why it took your god three whole days to make our solar system, but just one day to make all the other solar systems and all the other galaxies in the universe? Please? (Not evidence, but I really am curious why it takes three days to make Earth, but it takes one day to make everything else.)
No. When a scientist says that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, that's not a metaphor. When a scientist says that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, that's not a metaphor.
And religion used to not be metaphors. The only reason they are now is because Science is learning about the universe. Religion has to backstep and say "Oh, haha, that seven day creation thing? We were kidding, it was actually a metaphor! Sorry for the miscommunication all these hundreds of years!"