Also, with regards to the Self-Repair and Replenish Quantity, does anyone know the exact mechanics? Rather than having "Replenish Quantity(10)" I'd like to have "Replenishes X Quantity Every Y Seconds". That'll be more informative and better info.
I didn't mean you should move it into damage reduction, for you are quite correct, it doesn't reduce damage. But place it beneath reduction, i.e switch places with the item drops category
Ah, gotcha. That was just my quick and dirty version of categorizing everything to get any suggestions. I have it all alphabetized now, so Damage Reflect is, in fact, directly beneath Damage Reduction.
OK, I added a few categories and tables to the Affix Page. How's it looking? Also, with regards to the Self-Repair and Replenish Quantity, does anyone know the exact mechanics? Rather than having "Replenish Quantity(10)" I'd like to have "Replenishes X Quantity Every Y Seconds". That'll be more informative and better info.
Couldn't you put all the ungrouped affixes like light radius and requirement reduction into a miscellaneous section?
And isn't there increased stack size?
The problem with having a large Misc. section for everything that doesn't fall into another category is that it doesn't provide easy, logical sorting. If you just see "Miscellaneous," you're not going to immediately know what's in there, which is the goal. Increased Stack Size is a prefix (Thin, Dense, etc.).
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Well I'd suggest moving Damage Reflect to just under Damage Reduction, seems to make more sense. It could also perhaps just be called Attack Effects. Other than that it seems fine. I like the headers, they make immediate sense
As far as I know, Damage Reflect doesn't actually reduce the damage, it just makes the attacker damage itself when it hits you. If so, it doesn't really fit into Damage Reduction. If I'm wrong, however, it would definitely fit in there. So please correct me if I am...O_O
The few categories that I have that I was questioning:
Break Point Increases - do we need to worry about being noob-friendly here? By which I mean someone who's not familiar with Break Points won't know what's in there.
Special Attack Effects - Attack Effects works I guess, but I'm not 100% happy with that either...Ignore Target Defense is the kicker on that one for me; just doesn't seem to fit, but I don't think it deserves its own header...:\
State Length Reduction - Better word than "State"?
I have them on their own rows as long as their bonuses aren't exactly the same for a given affix, including Beryl and the like. The only affixes I have them combined for are things like:
Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
However, if you want to combine them all, I don't suppose I have too much of an issue with that.
Would Charms be listed separately from items/jewels then?
No, those just happened to be next to each other in my list. Here's another example that involves everything:
Rugged * +4-16 to Maximum Stamina * Small Charms(1[4-8];21[9-16]) Rugged * +5-20 to Maximum Stamina * Amulets(1[5-10];8[11-20]) Belts Boots Circlets Gloves Rings(all the same) Rugged * +8-32 to Maximum Stamina * Large Charms(1[8-16];7[17-25];21[26-32]) Rugged * +12-50 to Maximum Stamina * Grand Charms(1[12-24];7[25-36];21[37-50])
Here, we have 4 table cells with it combined, 20 with them separated.
The only problem is that separating them like this splits it up really badly too. For example, we could have:
Lizard’s * +2-12 to Mana * Large Charms(1[2-4];9[5-7];17[8-12]) Lizard’s * +3-20 to Mana * Grand Charms(1[3-7];7[8-13];13[14-20]
Or, splitting that up, we would have:
Lizard's * +2-4 to Mana * Large Charms(1)
Lizard's * +3-7 to Mana * Grand Charms(1)
Lizard's * +5-7 to Mana * Large Charms(9)
Lizard's * +8-12 to Mana * Large Charms(17)
Lizard's * +8-13 to Mana * Grand Charms(7)
Lizard's * +14-20 to Mana * Grand Charms(13)
Now we're splitting up the item type (L-G-L-L-G-G) for minuscule differences in stats. It just doesn't seem like there's enough variation amongst the different levels of the affixes to make it worth splitting up to me. You argue that the further down, the more powerful, but 8-12 vs. 8-13 just isn't a significant difference in "power". And, as long as we make certain that it's clear how to read the parentheses/brackets at the top of the page, I feel it's quite easy to understand.
This is a little update, simply leaving the level field blank when using the Affix template: Diablo Wiki:Sandbox
Cool, that looks perfect.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Also, how can an affix be available on items in the range 1-4 (Beryl)? Isn't that the same as simply being lvl 1?
Not sure what your confusion is on this one...but that kind of thing happens a lot.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Here, I am not so sure I agree. We're still displaying levels behind the item, since the level column would be removed, but if the actual bonus is different as well? I know AS lists all affixes with the same name on one row, but is it not helpful here to have it split up instead of adding lots of parenthesis and brackets? I do not see how that will improve readability.
Currently we have six entries for Beryl. We cannot push them all together into one cell and list it as +Poison Resist 3-15%, that will look terrible and won't make it any easier to read, since every item in the last cell will have to have their own resists specified.
I see where you're coming from here, and you make a good point, but I think it might start to look pretty repetitive when we have 2 affixes back-to-back with the same name and same item. I definitely agree that it can get pretty difficult to read with the parentheses and brackets, especially when there are 4 or 5 different items that it happens on for a single affix. But, on that same note, that means we're going to have to add 4 or 5 more cells to the table too. Some items even have 3+ level divisions within the affix, so I guess you really just have to make a decision on which is worse, and it's kind of the lesser of two evils. However, I still think that keeping them all on one cell is preferable.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
You can't make them separate right now, and making it so that select words would have different colors inside the same cell, and different words in different order from table to table? That's going to be problematic I think. I don't know how it would be done in an easy manner.
There's no way to just remove the section for the table where you specify "magic" or "rare" and just use the hex code like
within the table?
I'm really starting to feel like we're running in circles here.
Quote from "dNA" »
The design you propose is exactly how Arreat Summit lists the affixes. Nothing we would have is any different than what is there.
I realize that, but I don't see how that's particularly important. Yes, I know we want to be bigger and better than AS, but like I said, there's only so many ways this particular set of information can be presented. Here's another example: I think we can agree that a cheeseburger (ignoring fixins and condiments) is made of two buns, a hamburger patty, and a slice of cheese. Now, if I were to ask you to present me that information in a different way, how would you do it?
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Which I think warrants us to separate between different levels and versions, not jumble them together. The level then becomes crucial in actually knowing when a charm can spawn with improved powers.
Agreed, to a degree. Yes, the level is important, but I don't see any reason to separate them when we could simply indicate that the item receives "Bonus 1" at "Level X" and "Bonus 2" at "Level Y." This kind of thing appears on a lot of affixes, so if we separate them in this way, we're going to wind up with a shitload of affixes. Then it just gets confusing and heavy-handed, and there's no point in spending all this effort to change a list that's already confusing to a confusing list that just looks different.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
That's what the yellow is for. All yellow affixes can also appear on magic items.
Well, yellow items don't indicate that it can appear on magic or rare items, it indicates that it can appear on magic and rare items. Since Charms obviously can't be rare, it would work there, but it wouldn't be ideal as far as I'm concerned. Another good example is the "Cruel" prefix which occurs only on magic weapons at level 51, but can start occurring on rare weapons at level 56.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
And how is sorting making it cumbersome? There's little to no harm in actually having it there, especially in the master list. And if we are to have a master list, sorting by item type is still a very good thing to have.
Here you're contradicting many of your previous posts in this thread:
Quote from PhrozenDragon »
I can't say that the sort function will be crucial here
...
The list doesn't even necessarily have to be sorteable. If the items are just entered in a logical way to begin with, it will be apparent from the beginning what items a given affix spawns on and what not.
...
the focus comes on the actual modifiers instead, since this list is supposed to focus on those, and the item pages deal with them on an item-to-item basis.
I just feel like we came to a good solution, and now we're backtracking, and it's getting frustrating. I've clearly outlined why and how I think we should change it and we've agreed upon everything (eventually) and now all that stuff is being called into question. So I guess if you guys are wanting to go in another (backward) direction, I can just bow out of this one.
It's not going to be a mirror of the Arreat Summit; there are several features with how we're setting it up that make it far more user-friendly. The sortable lists are cool, but they're just too bulky and cumbersome. The page already exceeds the "recommended" size, and the suffixes haven't even been added yet. Sorting based on level might be cool, but how useful is it really? Whenever I've gone to check affixes in the 8 or 9 years that I've played this game, the level of the affix has never been the reason for my curiosity or my goal on the page. It's kind of just included for sake of completion IMO. The fact of the matter is that if "Prefix X" occurs on "Item Y" at "Level Z," there's only so many ways you can present that information.
OK, 2 quick questions regarding the Affix Table you made. First, can we just get rid of the "lvl" header on the table? This is because there are many prefixes that add the exact same bonus to different items, but those different items have different levels. For example: Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
There are also items that fall under a single prefix, but are divided within that prefix to add different bonuses. This one's pretty confusing, but in the following example, level 1 Small Charms can get +2-4 AR and level 21 Small Charm can get +6-12, but they're both "Bronze" either way: Bronze * +2-12 to Attack Rating * Small Charms(1[2-4];21[6-12])
Second, is there any way to make different colors for different item type? Right now you just type in "magic" or "rare" in the one section and it colors it appropriately, which is great. Unfortunately, there are some affixes that occur on both magic and rare items, and I don't know how to make those separate colors as it's set up now. Again, for example: Fletcher’s * +1 to Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon only) * Bows(rare-20) Crossbows(rare-20) Gloves(rare-20) Grand Charms(magic-50)
I was messing around with the affix template in the sandbox...since I obviously don't know how to make all this work, it was mostly trial and error, but I saved it so it could be looked at. I changed it to include a separate sortable list for each prefixes and suffixes, and changed the header (mainly deleted the "magic and rare" part so it could be used with items that can't be rare; i.e. charms). The suffix list is shorter than the prefix list for some reason, but anyway...am I on the right track?
Yeah, I think just a straight-up table would work best for this page. Since the affixes are the only focal point for the page, there's no reason we'd want to have them be collapsible and you know my position on the sortable part by this point.
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Cool, thanks. Same deal for Self-Repair(3) and Restoration(5)?
Ah, gotcha. That was just my quick and dirty version of categorizing everything to get any suggestions. I have it all alphabetized now, so Damage Reflect is, in fact, directly beneath Damage Reduction.
OK, I added a few categories and tables to the Affix Page. How's it looking? Also, with regards to the Self-Repair and Replenish Quantity, does anyone know the exact mechanics? Rather than having "Replenish Quantity(10)" I'd like to have "Replenishes X Quantity Every Y Seconds". That'll be more informative and better info.
The problem with having a large Misc. section for everything that doesn't fall into another category is that it doesn't provide easy, logical sorting. If you just see "Miscellaneous," you're not going to immediately know what's in there, which is the goal. Increased Stack Size is a prefix (Thin, Dense, etc.).
As far as I know, Damage Reflect doesn't actually reduce the damage, it just makes the attacker damage itself when it hits you. If so, it doesn't really fit into Damage Reduction. If I'm wrong, however, it would definitely fit in there. So please correct me if I am...O_O
The few categories that I have that I was questioning:
Break Point Increases - do we need to worry about being noob-friendly here? By which I mean someone who's not familiar with Break Points won't know what's in there.
Special Attack Effects - Attack Effects works I guess, but I'm not 100% happy with that either...Ignore Target Defense is the kicker on that one for me; just doesn't seem to fit, but I don't think it deserves its own header...:\
State Length Reduction - Better word than "State"?
Sweet, I'll get started again on the suffixes. Here's what I have for the categories; any suggestions?
===+ Stats===
+ Strength
+ Dexterity
+ Energy
+ Life
+ Mana
+ Life and Mana
===+ Light Radius===
===Enhanced Damage===
+ Minimum Damage
+ Maximum Damage
===Elemental Damage===
+ Cold Damage
+ Fire Damage
+ Lightning Damage
+ Poison Damage
===State Length Reduction===
Poison Length Reduction
Freeze Length Reduction
===Life/Mana Regeneration===
Life Leech
Mana Leech
Regenerate Life
===Break Point Increases===
Increased Attack Speed
Faster Block Rate
Faster Cast Rate
Faster Hit Recovery
===Chance to Block===
===Damage Reduction===
Damage Reduction
Magic Damage Reduction
===Item Drops===
Gold Find
Magic Find
===Damage Reflect===
===Requirement Reduction===
===Faster Run/Walk===
===Special Attack Effects(?)===
Knockback
Ignore Target Defense
Prevent Monster Heal
===Durability===
Self-Repair
Indestructible
Replenish Quantity
Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
However, if you want to combine them all, I don't suppose I have too much of an issue with that.
No, those just happened to be next to each other in my list. Here's another example that involves everything:
Rugged * +4-16 to Maximum Stamina * Small Charms(1[4-8];21[9-16])
Rugged * +5-20 to Maximum Stamina * Amulets(1[5-10];8[11-20]) Belts Boots Circlets Gloves Rings(all the same)
Rugged * +8-32 to Maximum Stamina * Large Charms(1[8-16];7[17-25];21[26-32])
Rugged * +12-50 to Maximum Stamina * Grand Charms(1[12-24];7[25-36];21[37-50])
Here, we have 4 table cells with it combined, 20 with them separated.
Add anything to what? I think that it's fairly clear with or without them, but I'm not really sure what you're asking.
Lizard’s * +2-12 to Mana * Large Charms(1[2-4];9[5-7];17[8-12])
Lizard’s * +3-20 to Mana * Grand Charms(1[3-7];7[8-13];13[14-20]
Or, splitting that up, we would have:
Lizard's * +2-4 to Mana * Large Charms(1)
Lizard's * +3-7 to Mana * Grand Charms(1)
Lizard's * +5-7 to Mana * Large Charms(9)
Lizard's * +8-12 to Mana * Large Charms(17)
Lizard's * +8-13 to Mana * Grand Charms(7)
Lizard's * +14-20 to Mana * Grand Charms(13)
Now we're splitting up the item type (L-G-L-L-G-G) for minuscule differences in stats. It just doesn't seem like there's enough variation amongst the different levels of the affixes to make it worth splitting up to me. You argue that the further down, the more powerful, but 8-12 vs. 8-13 just isn't a significant difference in "power". And, as long as we make certain that it's clear how to read the parentheses/brackets at the top of the page, I feel it's quite easy to understand.
Cool, that looks perfect.
Not sure what your confusion is on this one...but that kind of thing happens a lot.
I see where you're coming from here, and you make a good point, but I think it might start to look pretty repetitive when we have 2 affixes back-to-back with the same name and same item. I definitely agree that it can get pretty difficult to read with the parentheses and brackets, especially when there are 4 or 5 different items that it happens on for a single affix. But, on that same note, that means we're going to have to add 4 or 5 more cells to the table too. Some items even have 3+ level divisions within the affix, so I guess you really just have to make a decision on which is worse, and it's kind of the lesser of two evils. However, I still think that keeping them all on one cell is preferable.
There's no way to just remove the section for the table where you specify "magic" or "rare" and just use the hex code like
within the table?
I realize that, but I don't see how that's particularly important. Yes, I know we want to be bigger and better than AS, but like I said, there's only so many ways this particular set of information can be presented. Here's another example: I think we can agree that a cheeseburger (ignoring fixins and condiments) is made of two buns, a hamburger patty, and a slice of cheese. Now, if I were to ask you to present me that information in a different way, how would you do it?
Agreed, to a degree. Yes, the level is important, but I don't see any reason to separate them when we could simply indicate that the item receives "Bonus 1" at "Level X" and "Bonus 2" at "Level Y." This kind of thing appears on a lot of affixes, so if we separate them in this way, we're going to wind up with a shitload of affixes. Then it just gets confusing and heavy-handed, and there's no point in spending all this effort to change a list that's already confusing to a confusing list that just looks different.
Well, yellow items don't indicate that it can appear on magic or rare items, it indicates that it can appear on magic and rare items. Since Charms obviously can't be rare, it would work there, but it wouldn't be ideal as far as I'm concerned. Another good example is the "Cruel" prefix which occurs only on magic weapons at level 51, but can start occurring on rare weapons at level 56.
Here you're contradicting many of your previous posts in this thread:
I just feel like we came to a good solution, and now we're backtracking, and it's getting frustrating. I've clearly outlined why and how I think we should change it and we've agreed upon everything (eventually) and now all that stuff is being called into question. So I guess if you guys are wanting to go in another (backward) direction, I can just bow out of this one.
Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
There are also items that fall under a single prefix, but are divided within that prefix to add different bonuses. This one's pretty confusing, but in the following example, level 1 Small Charms can get +2-4 AR and level 21 Small Charm can get +6-12, but they're both "Bronze" either way:
Bronze * +2-12 to Attack Rating * Small Charms(1[2-4];21[6-12])
Second, is there any way to make different colors for different item type? Right now you just type in "magic" or "rare" in the one section and it colors it appropriately, which is great. Unfortunately, there are some affixes that occur on both magic and rare items, and I don't know how to make those separate colors as it's set up now. Again, for example:
Fletcher’s * +1 to Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon only) * Bows(rare-20) Crossbows(rare-20) Gloves(rare-20) Grand Charms(magic-50)
Thanks.
Diablo Wiki:Sandbox