I understand that it's really hard to let go of one's vision of what Hardcore is supposed to be...but even with the Gold AH, your vision no longer exists.
The same principle always applies in any trading game, whether you can trade through an auction house or by player to player trading. If you're good at making an income that way, then so be it, but at least you've only been taking advantage of your gaming assets as opposed to getting your real life assets involved.
I also get the feeling that there's a lot of people that found refuge in HC just because they thought there was no RMAH.
That's what just doesn't make sense of any kind. I guess once people believe the sky really is falling, there's no stopping the stampede...
I'm quite amazed at your ignorance. Even after all the points I've given, you just shrug them off as if they're invalid. Everyone feels the same way you do huh?
I understand why you want an RMAH, but you can't comprehend why myself and many others don't want it. That speaks volumes about your inability to acknowledge the psychological effects that an RMAH will bring to the table.
RMAH doesn't make D3 lose its "virtual reality". That just doesn't make any sense. It's still not real regardless.
I didn't say D3 loses its virtual reality, I said that the RMAH will tie in virtual reality more directly to your real life. This shouldn't be happening in a game.
The guy that would think bots are ok to use is already using them. And as long as I'm able to play without a bot in my game, then I wouldn't care if they exist because I know I don't want to use them.
Not necessarily. Someone that can't create their own bot or has never thought of going out of their way to buy a bot off the black market wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean they won't readily accept the introduction of bot selling on the RMAH.
Similarly with the RMAH in general. Many players didn't buy items from sites in D2, but the RMAH creates incentives for them to do so in D3, so they will. I've already addressed these points anyway.
And just as you would CHOOSE not to sell that item for $50, people can CHOOSE to not buy loot from HC-RMAH.
I know! When did I ever say I didn't have a choice?
For someone like me that lives in a developed country and has a decent - on the side - income rate, selling on the RMAH would be counter-productive, and buying would be very productive. But I don't want to ruin my gaming experience by buying items, and I don't like the fact that Blizzard is presenting all their great deals to me. They're trying to get us to use the RMAH and it's working...
It's not like you join a game, start killing things and "OMG THE HC-RMAH IS RIGHT THERE NEXT TO MY CHARACTER! AHH IT'S TAUNTING ME TO BUY STUFF OMG NO, DAMMIT, NOOO!". You would have to stop not-buying-loot by exiting the game you're in, and click into a completely different part of the game's interface to even begin to interact with the HC-RMAH.
??? Do you even understand how the general population of human psychology works? Can you understand the concept of impulse buying? Can you understand why so many people run to the stores on Black Friday or whatever holiday it is to get cheap deals?
It's more like "oh ok so I've been farming for 10 hours now trying to find item X, but still haven't got it. Oh but look over there, it sells for $20 on the RMAH. I make $20 an hour at work, so obviously buying it will be good use of my time".
*buys the item*
But now I feel dirty...
As far as having to spend 2 hours to farm or not can be and currently is "undermined" all of the time anyway. How many fail-players are just handed loot all of the time by their friends that actually know how to play? Or even given in-game currency to go buy all their gear and didn't have to put in the time to get that far in the first place?
So in other words you're saying that luck shouldn't be involved in the game? A game where magic find is a big deal, and you don't want luck? How exactly did you think this was equivalent to spending real assets, a commodity IRL that some people have much more of than others. It's pretty much like starting a new game, but not everyone starts on the same playing field. If you are rich and willing to spend it on the RMAH, you're already going to be miles ahead of others. Is this fair? Is it fair to tie in ones real life into their virtual reality life?
Don't people play games to escape the real world sometimes?
I feel like they've crossed a line by trying to make more money at the cost of losing what a game should be about - its virtual reality. It should be as distant from any real life influences as it can be, as it has always been, but Blizzard is welcoming real life and our gaming lives to come closer together.
You need to be careful though. Supporting a company's monetary choices completely isn't always that wise. I mean, while I find the RMAH to be a breach of gaming values, sure, I can understand why so many others don't see it in the same light, but at what point will Blizzard realize that enough is enough and if they try and squeeze anymore money out of us, they'll begin to lose their credibility?
What if they decide to sell bot programs to you to use for short periods of time? You might think that's preposterous, but the next guy won't. He could argue that he doesn't feel like farming for the next two hours, so why can't he be given the luxury of a bot to do it for him if he's willing to pay for it with cash?
I just hope Blizzard decides to draw that line before the HC-RMAH.
Oh and as for selling an item for $50. Me. I wouldn't want to sell it.
Why you ask? Because I can make $50 in 2 hours IRL, but I could've spent weeks farming for that item. It's just counter productive for me to farm in a game to earn a few bucks an hour at best. Gaming isn't a job to me, so I don't expect to be making money off of it, but if it was, it would have to be the worst paying job possible.
Conversely, it's the exact reason why I don't want an RMAH present in my game mode, because buying items would be very productive use of my time. I don't want to fall into that trap.
UberN00b, you're correct in stating that I don't want the HC-RMAH because it will tempt me into using it. It's also a big reason why I decided to move to HC permanently, because ideally I'd play SC every now and again when my net is playing up, which it often does.
Your psycological discomfort from the mere presence of RMAH should not be the rest of the public's burden (i.e. being deprived of a HC-RMAH).
See, this is what bothers me. Was it the public's burden when pretty much EVERY other game out there in the past prohibited the act of selling items for real money? Maybe for the minority that regularly traded in that way, but for the entire public? No.
It was a common acceptance that buying items for money was seen as cheating. But now that Blizzard wants to earn a buck in it all, suddenly its an amazing feature that the public needs. They need to be exposed to the RMAH so they can start using it as well, so Blizzard can make more money, so the classic sense of getting better in a game by actually playing the game more or more efficiently is completely diminished?
I'm sorry, but if its a burden for the public, then they still have the options of sticking to SC, using the black market, or - god forbid - not buying their way to victory.
What options do I have (and I don't just mean myself, there are plenty of others out there) to avoid the RMAH if the HC-RMAH is implemented?
I'm sure you think it's idiotic that someone can in fact succumb to Blizzard's advertisements, but it's a very real psychological phenomenon that Blizzard and the rest of the businesses in the world count on happening.
I liken performance-enhancing drugs to cheating. If that were the case, Blizzard would endorse hacking/mods on closed Battle.net.
The thing is is that if Blizzard could make large sums of money off of it without losing too much credibility, they would do it, because let's face it, if Blizzard weren't about making money, they would never implement the RMAH. It simply goes against the concept of having a second life within the game and being completely devoid of influences such as money from your real life.
Trading for loot (no matter the means so long as both parties agree to the transaction) is not cheating. Violation of EULA? That's a different matter, but it's all the same loot. It's not like a purchased The Oculus has different stats than The Oculus you found from Andariel. The difference is you spent x time farming it, someone else spent 10 seconds to buy it. Same loot. Same item. Same level playing field.
Of course I'm not saying that the RMAH is pumping more items into the economy (besides the fact that players that quit will now be selling off their items rather than leaving them to rot on their account) and I don't really care if some people choose to buy their way to the top as opposed to farming their way there.
What I care about is all those psychological factors I mentioned earlier that influence a player's decision to use the RMAH. For example, I myself won't be spending any money on the game, but when I've been farming non-stop for the passed 10 hours to try and find the item that I want, but I see it's up for sale for just $20 which I can make in 1 hour, if I wanted to be efficient about all my farming I would clearly buy the item and just work more to make up for it, saving me plenty of time.
This may seem like a crude example and you might be like "you're just weak for giving in etc. etc." but in a game where competition is a major factor in its longevity, you can't deny that this scenario will be happening, a lot.
This is why I decided I'll be playing hardcore most of all. To avoid the RMAH completely, so I don't have the option of even considering to buy items. I want to play the game the way it's meant to be played, but I can't promise that my strive to find the path of least resistance won't get the better of me.
If the RMAH finds its way into hardcore as well... then I'll just be lost for words. I'd find it ridiculous that I can't find a mode to play where the RMAH doesn't have an influence on it. And this goes back to my point about Blizzard's direct advertisement again. If they have it hovering around your face no matter where you try to run, they'll make more money out of it.
You know what else is unfair? Maybe this same guy that bought it also could afford an awesome computer to play the game seemlessly while I'm puttering around on a minimum system requriements machine and often have graphic lag that he doesn't. So because someone else had the money to buy a better system, is that unfair and they should be held back? I see no difference with that and buying loot.
If you're a student studying for an exam, do you find it cheating if a family that's better off can provide their kid with a tutor? I wouldn't.
I would however find it cheating if that same kid pays someone else to do his exam for him.
If you have the money and you want to drop it on loot, more power to you. I'm going to play the game and farm my own wealth. That's the fun I get out of it.
That's also the way I want to play the game, hence why I'm against the RMAH because it attempts to take away from that. Trying to be the best is also fun however, and now there are much more efficient ways to get there than farming can possibly provide. These two points directly contradict each other, so in the end it comes down ones resilience and morals.
The consequence of HC-RMAH not being implemented because of the customer support nightmare that will follow with it is a blessing to me. I found somewhere that I can avoid the RMAH completely. Please don't take that away from me...
Difference is that when buying from gold HC you cant buy a starting capital, with RMAH you can just put 50 bucks into your ingame account and start buying without having accumulated any of the gold/starting capital your self.
So, in other words, so you can jump straight into late game?
Sure, that's an obvious difference between having the RMAH vs not having it, but is it a good one?
If there is no RMAH and the black market steps in, what then? Wouldn't Hardcore lose its credibility anyway? They already opened the box with Softcore RMAH
You need to consider the psychological aspect of what makes the RMAH more appealing over the black market.
Easy access and functionality
Direct advertisement
A safe trading environment
Legalization
The consequence of the RMAH being superior to black market sites with all these points is that many more people will get involved in its use. As I already pointed out with an analogy, some may go to lengths to take illegal performance enhancing drugs and there's nothing we can do about that as a whole, but once the drugs are openly endorsed and sold in a stall that's operated by the venue, then the venue loses all credibility.
Buying from gold-AH or RMAH is all the same, you buy someone elses items
Introducing a factor into the equation that doesn't involve your experience with the game itself is not the same. Buying off the GAH, you are spending gold which you acquired in the game. Buying off the RMAH means you're spending real money which you may be willing to spend much more of than the next guy. It does not represent your skill in the game, and a large part of hardcore is the notion of boasting about your achievements.
Regardless of RMAH or not, you have no way of knowing if a player bought all of his items with money or not.
I know, and I never said the hardcore playerbase will be sure that everyone played old school - legitimately. You know, the way the game is meant to be played. I just said that hardcore will lose its credibility if an RMAH is introduced.
It's kind of like taking sports enhancing drugs illegally to win an event. Sure, you're able to buy them from the black market and whatnot, but if you're caught actually doing it then you'll lose your respect from the rest of the competitors. Introducing the RMAH however will be like the event organizers condoning the use of drugs and selling it for a price similar to that on the black market right next to the track.
No one will look at hardcore in the same way, because any players could be "cheating" and since Blizzard is happy to help you reach that goal without actually playing the game the way its meant to be, then it's just lost its hardcore value.
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No, I believe maka is trying to say that just because something works the way it does in the real world doesn't mean it needs to happen in the game.
I'm quite amazed at your ignorance. Even after all the points I've given, you just shrug them off as if they're invalid. Everyone feels the same way you do huh?
I understand why you want an RMAH, but you can't comprehend why myself and many others don't want it. That speaks volumes about your inability to acknowledge the psychological effects that an RMAH will bring to the table.
Not necessarily. Someone that can't create their own bot or has never thought of going out of their way to buy a bot off the black market wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean they won't readily accept the introduction of bot selling on the RMAH.
Similarly with the RMAH in general. Many players didn't buy items from sites in D2, but the RMAH creates incentives for them to do so in D3, so they will. I've already addressed these points anyway.
How about if you saw everyone around you botting while they're not online? How would you feel then?
I know! When did I ever say I didn't have a choice?
For someone like me that lives in a developed country and has a decent - on the side - income rate, selling on the RMAH would be counter-productive, and buying would be very productive. But I don't want to ruin my gaming experience by buying items, and I don't like the fact that Blizzard is presenting all their great deals to me. They're trying to get us to use the RMAH and it's working...
??? Do you even understand how the general population of human psychology works? Can you understand the concept of impulse buying? Can you understand why so many people run to the stores on Black Friday or whatever holiday it is to get cheap deals?
It's more like "oh ok so I've been farming for 10 hours now trying to find item X, but still haven't got it. Oh but look over there, it sells for $20 on the RMAH. I make $20 an hour at work, so obviously buying it will be good use of my time".
*buys the item*
But now I feel dirty...
So in other words you're saying that luck shouldn't be involved in the game? A game where magic find is a big deal, and you don't want luck? How exactly did you think this was equivalent to spending real assets, a commodity IRL that some people have much more of than others. It's pretty much like starting a new game, but not everyone starts on the same playing field. If you are rich and willing to spend it on the RMAH, you're already going to be miles ahead of others. Is this fair? Is it fair to tie in ones real life into their virtual reality life?
Don't people play games to escape the real world sometimes?
You need to be careful though. Supporting a company's monetary choices completely isn't always that wise. I mean, while I find the RMAH to be a breach of gaming values, sure, I can understand why so many others don't see it in the same light, but at what point will Blizzard realize that enough is enough and if they try and squeeze anymore money out of us, they'll begin to lose their credibility?
What if they decide to sell bot programs to you to use for short periods of time? You might think that's preposterous, but the next guy won't. He could argue that he doesn't feel like farming for the next two hours, so why can't he be given the luxury of a bot to do it for him if he's willing to pay for it with cash?
I just hope Blizzard decides to draw that line before the HC-RMAH.
Oh and as for selling an item for $50. Me. I wouldn't want to sell it.
Why you ask? Because I can make $50 in 2 hours IRL, but I could've spent weeks farming for that item. It's just counter productive for me to farm in a game to earn a few bucks an hour at best. Gaming isn't a job to me, so I don't expect to be making money off of it, but if it was, it would have to be the worst paying job possible.
Conversely, it's the exact reason why I don't want an RMAH present in my game mode, because buying items would be very productive use of my time. I don't want to fall into that trap.
See, this is what bothers me. Was it the public's burden when pretty much EVERY other game out there in the past prohibited the act of selling items for real money? Maybe for the minority that regularly traded in that way, but for the entire public? No.
It was a common acceptance that buying items for money was seen as cheating. But now that Blizzard wants to earn a buck in it all, suddenly its an amazing feature that the public needs. They need to be exposed to the RMAH so they can start using it as well, so Blizzard can make more money, so the classic sense of getting better in a game by actually playing the game more or more efficiently is completely diminished?
I'm sorry, but if its a burden for the public, then they still have the options of sticking to SC, using the black market, or - god forbid - not buying their way to victory.
What options do I have (and I don't just mean myself, there are plenty of others out there) to avoid the RMAH if the HC-RMAH is implemented?
I'm sure you think it's idiotic that someone can in fact succumb to Blizzard's advertisements, but it's a very real psychological phenomenon that Blizzard and the rest of the businesses in the world count on happening.
Of course I'm not saying that the RMAH is pumping more items into the economy (besides the fact that players that quit will now be selling off their items rather than leaving them to rot on their account) and I don't really care if some people choose to buy their way to the top as opposed to farming their way there.
What I care about is all those psychological factors I mentioned earlier that influence a player's decision to use the RMAH. For example, I myself won't be spending any money on the game, but when I've been farming non-stop for the passed 10 hours to try and find the item that I want, but I see it's up for sale for just $20 which I can make in 1 hour, if I wanted to be efficient about all my farming I would clearly buy the item and just work more to make up for it, saving me plenty of time.
This may seem like a crude example and you might be like "you're just weak for giving in etc. etc." but in a game where competition is a major factor in its longevity, you can't deny that this scenario will be happening, a lot.
This is why I decided I'll be playing hardcore most of all. To avoid the RMAH completely, so I don't have the option of even considering to buy items. I want to play the game the way it's meant to be played, but I can't promise that my strive to find the path of least resistance won't get the better of me.
If the RMAH finds its way into hardcore as well... then I'll just be lost for words. I'd find it ridiculous that I can't find a mode to play where the RMAH doesn't have an influence on it. And this goes back to my point about Blizzard's direct advertisement again. If they have it hovering around your face no matter where you try to run, they'll make more money out of it.
If you're a student studying for an exam, do you find it cheating if a family that's better off can provide their kid with a tutor? I wouldn't.
I would however find it cheating if that same kid pays someone else to do his exam for him.
That's also the way I want to play the game, hence why I'm against the RMAH because it attempts to take away from that. Trying to be the best is also fun however, and now there are much more efficient ways to get there than farming can possibly provide. These two points directly contradict each other, so in the end it comes down ones resilience and morals.
The consequence of HC-RMAH not being implemented because of the customer support nightmare that will follow with it is a blessing to me. I found somewhere that I can avoid the RMAH completely. Please don't take that away from me...
Sure, that's an obvious difference between having the RMAH vs not having it, but is it a good one?
I know, and I never said the hardcore playerbase will be sure that everyone played old school - legitimately. You know, the way the game is meant to be played. I just said that hardcore will lose its credibility if an RMAH is introduced.
It would lose its credibility.
It's kind of like taking sports enhancing drugs illegally to win an event. Sure, you're able to buy them from the black market and whatnot, but if you're caught actually doing it then you'll lose your respect from the rest of the competitors. Introducing the RMAH however will be like the event organizers condoning the use of drugs and selling it for a price similar to that on the black market right next to the track.
No one will look at hardcore in the same way, because any players could be "cheating" and since Blizzard is happy to help you reach that goal without actually playing the game the way its meant to be, then it's just lost its hardcore value.