DiabloFans

Quote from pskfry

They have stated multiple, multiple times that D3 will NOT be an e-sport and they will NOT be balancing around PvP.

/thread

They have no control over it being an eSport, lesser shittier balanced games have become an eSport.

"We know people are going to want to turn it into an eSport, we know that... like, but it's not going to be from any encouragement from us..." The mouth of JW himself.

If there is enough support for it, the PvP community will turn it into an eSport themselves. So you kiddies can stop coming in and saying

/thread

just because blizzard wont support it as an eSport with feature sets, does not mean it will not become an eSport.Look at LoL, they STILL dont have the eSport feature set even comparable to HoN or DotA, and they payed there way onto the eSports scene, but they are there, with the lesser skill cap of the three MOBA giants, and little to no eSports features.

As I've said before, all a game needs is popularity and a large enough pvp crowd, and a profit, and a game will create an eSport. people have this unrealistic vision that only super balanced games become eSports, which is far, far, far, far from the truth. Replays? spectator mode? Downloadable replays? Pause system for disc players? I haven't touched LoL since i got my Dota 2 invite in Oct, but LoL lacked all those eSport feature sets, AND balance, and a high skill cap like its competition. It's on the scene for one reason only POPULARITY.

If you're going to come in an talk about PvP that's fine, if you're going to come in and try to talk about eSports, that's fine, if you know wtf you're talking about. If you dont you're adding NOTHING to the conversation, zip, zero, zilch, nadda.

Quote from Gregorian

Diablo 3 will never become an e-sport. An e-sports game has to be watchable, it has to be nice to watch, make people show emotions, supports players. Would you like to watch some 2v2 or 3v3 arenas from upper view camera? I find WoW arenas sooooo boring, this would be even a bigger boredom. Want an e-sports game, go play Starcraft 2, it's extremely cool to watch, it has a great community, players are treated like celebrities, casters are known and their knowledge is decent, SC2 is the future of esports!

*SC2 along with Dota 2, and CS:GO is the future of eSports! fixed for accuracy for you

Quote from Gregorian

Diablo 3 will never become an e-sport. An e-sports game has to be watchable, it has to be nice to watch, make people show emotions, supports players. Would you like to watch some 2v2 or 3v3 arenas from upper view camera? I find WoW arenas sooooo boring, this would be even a bigger boredom. Want an e-sports game, go play Starcraft 2, it's extremely cool to watch, it has a great community, players are treated like celebrities, casters are known and their knowledge is decent, SC2 is the future of esports!

Oh? and Halo 3, CoDBO was ohhh ssooo emotion filled and "fun to watch". An eSport game has to make profit, and have a strong PvP player base that will follow it, that's it.

Keldaur if you would of looked at anything ive posted here, I've already discussed how comparing difficulty between games is idiotic, how gear can be dealt with for balance, how they already have SNOWS/SNOES? in place to allow different skills to behave in different ways, and as far as Arena being boring to watch, meh. I've watched some good ones, some bad ones. I could say the same argument about watching an sc2 match? Some will find it boring, because it's not their cup of tea.

Quote from Kodachii

I'm just telling you why it shouldn't be considered a legit esport, not why the ranking system doesn't work. I'm pointing at wow and its short and declining life as an esport to make that point. The part about buying power wasn't an underlying point, it was just to show that power wasn't even necessarily a time investment, as if that should be a requirement for something to be an esport in the first place...

In wow tournaments they give you premade characters and allow you to use various items of your choosing so that power isn't a factor. Despite this FOTM (flavor of the month, or overpowering class-compositions) always exists unless it's a mirror match, and even if it is you can still lose to people of lesser skill through the process of Random Number Generation as I detailed in the post above.

Was also suggesting that arena and pvp will recieve record low balancing from blizzard because they don't want the game to become an esport, specifically pointed out during a blizzcon. They don't want to do the work and make the "sacrifices" involved in order to make it happen. So it wouldn't even be nearly as balanced as wow from the get go.

I have no problem if blizzard allows people to organize private pvp matches (and thus the creation of community based tournaments) and people make up their own rules or lack thereof, in fact I hope this is the case, but I'm simply detailing a few points as to why d3 will not become an esport.

Welcome to PvP, where x beats y, y beats w, w beats z, z beats v etc etc etc. Throw 2,3,5 of them on a team against another 2,3,5 and you think you will achieve perfect balance?

There is always fotm because pros play it, and once it's seen by the world that "insert players" played "insert comp" everyone plays it. The example of chu I gave shows that pro players set whats viable and not viable 99% of the time. Top viable builds and comps on arena junkies etc.

Everyone said meepo was shit and you couldnt play him competitively.. Chu did it. Couldnt play Maoki, Chu did it.

in regards to your WoW example, I forget what season it was (within the last 2 years) resto druids were "shit" then some pro team comp comes in with a resto druid and rapes the fuck out of everyone. FOTM should be changed to "flavour of whatever the fuck the pro players deem as awesome" because that's often what happens.

I think it comes down to 3 things.
1. they dont want to compete against sc2 for viewer numbers/popularity
2. Wilson doesnt know how to balance for PvP/ have a desire to balance for PvP which has been evident in pretty much every statement he's made with the exception of him wanting a place for HC death duels
3. They have obviously become complacent with the development of this game, and as such game systems are cut and delayed left right and centre.

They already have the SNOWS/SNOES? in place to tweak abilities to behave differently in PvP vs PvE, all they would have to do is

Open PvP - No preset gear No eSport, play with friends, open que, duel, etc.
Closed PvP - preset gear, eSport (similar to gw2 pvp take)

Then put a PvP strike team on balance, done. They have dicked around too much with the development to be anywhere close to this occurring IF they wanted it to happen which they clearly dont, that would just mean more work, which they are already months behind in, to ship an unfinished product to patch it later to be a finished product. We have to wait post launch for just regular PvP, fuck it ever being even close to eSport level. 2-6 months for just regular PvP to be out..... it's just a joke.

I honestly dont know what they do over at blizzard, but Indie teams like GGG have put blizzards d3 dev team to shame

Quote from Kodachii

Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

Quote from Kodachii

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport. Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.

I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.

Power and imbalance (like fotm) can still take you at least that far. It's an innate advantage before combat even begins, whether you're able to make use of it or not and regardless of the extent you're able to do so. I have beaten better equipped players many times, but I have also lost arena matches I had no business losing because I was in greens and the guys in the other pin were in gear which could just facetank me for a minute and kill me in a second.

It only takes you so far, but if you ask me it's no paper thin margin in an RPG. Gear also causes other complications for pvp such as RNG, it's hard to take it seriously when two people are on opposite sides of the same coin (in a mirror match with the same exact skill and gear for instance) but one guy is landing crit after crit after crit while the other keeps on getting dodged and parried and hitting for normal minimum damage.

it all balances out in the wash and skill prevails.

(inc numbers that are just to make a point)
If the opponent has 1k attack and is at a 1600 PSR/MMR, and you have 800 attack and you face him. He barely beats you, what happens when you get 1k and fight that some kid? You stomp him into oblivion. All bad players purchasing gear does is pad stats, it doesnt make them good. Why anyone is worried about this is beyond me. He buys something with irl money, you buy something with gold. Current polls show most wont even buy from the RMAH, just sell on it.

All buying gear with using RMAH is doing, is delaying the inevitable, when the time will come when someone fights them with equal gear, and will be way higher skilled. You can always buy power in any game, but you can never buy skill. This argument on it being a diablo thing because of the RMAH is a dead horse beating.

Quote from Kodachii

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport. Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.

I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.

A games difficulty is in its learning curve, and then the skill of the opponent played. Comparing games outside of genres in regards to difficulty is stupid? This is why a lot of pros don't jump genre to genre, but stay inside there professional "bubble".

Further, years of playing a certain type of game, actually make your brain change and adapt to the style of game you play. Read an article when I was studying cognitive psychology about FPS and it's affects on the brain. Gamers who specialize in playing FPS games can make more 'critical decision' with a higher accuracy rate, given little time to respond. This coincides with that happens in a FPS game. You have fractions of a second to respond to a situation, or you die. Yeah there is a lot of strat and skill that goes into playing team based FPS, but what it comes down to is a gunfight, and those are over in a second.

This is probly the case for MMO, RTS, Fighting games etc. Years of playing them day in and day out changes your brain to be more efficient in their play style.

There are probably some great pro gamers that can bounce between genres, but for the most part you just see a transition from gamers inside the genre. You will see MOBA players shuffle around from game to game, sc to sc2, fighter gamers bounce around between mortal combat, street fighter etc.

Here is an example

Chu

"Comes out of nowhere with a competitively viable meepo, who I think was considered nothing but a pubstomper.

Goes to HoN, considered best player for some time.

Goes to LoL, uses Maokai, a character who was previously considered trash tier. Becomes highest MMR-equivilent or something in LoL (basically the best player).

Comes back to HoN for afaik a mediocre showing in Dreamhack (outside of some big plays)

Goes back to LoL, for it is good to be the king."

You guys are trying to compare apples to oranges, the only comparison to draw between d3 and sc, is that they are both made by blizzard, and they are both video games. That's it.

^ that information has been out since '11 that doesnt end the thread lol. There has been more discussion and debate about d3 being an eSport since blizzcon and the press interviews where they stated they dont WANT an eSport. You can find the pvp video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E452S_fJwA

Quote from BleuSnaks42

"But making it an 'esport' isn't just that. An Esport implies that it'l will be completely, numerically balanced down to the last skill. It even implies going as far as having separate gear for pvp, pvm, and I think that's where a lot of people are having trouble supporting the Esport idea."

Wrong, all an eSport means is that it's in the eSport bracket for competition. Games do not become eSport based on their balance. You can actually just pay your game onto the eSports scene and stay in it, purely based on the fact that it is profitable (see League of Legends). Tons of bad barely balanced games make eSports status. The only few that go for absolute balance are SC, DotA, and CS, WoW is hit or miss with its season balance, because they allowed PvE to trump PvP in importance (for the most part) but still actually tries for balance (until SC2, came out, then they said fuck it). You know there have been a lot more games than that on the eSport scene. They are there due to popularity and the competitive crowd that's with them, NOT balance.

If there is enough money in it, and the game has PvP it can become an eSport, regardless of the balance of a game. Blizzard likes to try to balance as much as possible for PvP for the games they make to be "eSport" viable. Wilson just doesnt want to bother trying to balance for it, so by blizzard standards they wont balance for an eSport, however I have this feeling Wilson is going to be usurped by the profit numbers they could generate making it go eSports, so, only time will tell if it will end up that way. For now, it's a no go. i feel it will stay as a no go for a long time, unless blizzard is heavily pressured by $$$ and the fans. They seem content on just having 1 game in the eSport scene, since SC2, they have downgraded balance and eSport hype for WoW.