Absolutely. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if it is agreed upon by both parties, and if there's an easy way of preventing mass inviting, I'm all for it. As I said, it's fun to dick around with your mate to test out the new phat lewt you both just got from a 2 hour PvE session.
How would you propose to solve the issue I mentioned before? That being, dueling in a public game essentially killing progress for the other two players? The only solution I could see to this would be to make it in private games only and at that point, what makes it any different then just inviting the player to Arena instead (assuming they add a duel Arena)?
With a 'vote to kick' feature.
A vote to kick feature doesn't solve the problem. If two people choose to duel and two people don't want them to duel, how does vote to kick work? It doesn't.
But then people who play public games might get killed, and getting killed is not fun so maybe they'll quit the game... (-Blizzard's design philosophy on D3)
The main point is that no-one should be FORCED to PvP in a game where the main goal is to kill MONSTERS. I'm going to PvP, I already know this. However, I expect to be able to PvP when and if I choose to, not have someone join my game and try to kill me. Arena is a better option for PvP with Diablo 3's game design. It just is.
Queue ? I thought you just selected a game in a list of available games
edit : Anyway, if there is way too few hostiliy-enabled games, that means that people don't want it, and that the very feature was useless in the first place, so there is no real drawback to this system.
There is no game list in Diablo 3, only public and private games (a system that I find actually works very well). If there are going to be too few people to have a good queue, then developing resources to maintain add and maintain the game-mode is unrealistic. It'd be spending time to gain nothing out of it (other then maybe complaints when a hardcore player accidentally joins a hostile game and loses everything).
I'd hate any solution of "mutual consent" PvP, because it would bring pvp addicts people to the game. It's a completely different mentality from PvM, they don't fot together. They play to compete.
This is no kind of players I enjoy to play with.
This also won't prevent harassing & insulting PvM players for "turning PvP on".
Arenas are separate enough for me, it will keep the PvP population far enough from PvM.
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That being said, I have an idea :
a game could be created with a specific flag "hostility enabled".
I would be impossible to change this flag once the game is created (so there can be no verbal/visual harassment to turn it on ingame).
This way, the people who want to get ganked can be satisfied.
Gankers will be able to join hostiliy-enabled games to gank people that want to get ganked, and everyone is happy.
What do you think of this system ? Seems to me it works just fine for everyone, no ?
It would be great, except for one large problem. It'd be extra development to maintain a separate queuing system that wouldn't be used my the majority. Because it isn't used by the majority, it would also have VERY high queue times (aka waiting 10-20 minutes per game). It really doesn't seem like a good option for Blizzard to pursue from my perspective.
Absolutely. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if it is agreed upon by both parties, and if there's an easy way of preventing mass inviting, I'm all for it. As I said, it's fun to dick around with your mate to test out the new phat lewt you both just got from a 2 hour PvE session.
How would you propose to solve the issue I mentioned before? That being, dueling in a public game essentially killing progress for the other two players? The only solution I could see to this would be to make it in private games only and at that point, what makes it any different then just inviting the player to Arena instead (assuming they add a duel Arena)?
I like the bilateral hostility concept, and you're right - I didn't read that previously... mostly because I was busy trying to explain what I thought was obvious in my original post (that it was JUST AN IDEA) from some clown that only wanted to mock the idea instead of providing any feedback. The standard /laugh mentality is not remotely useful when developing a concept.
From what your bilateral hostility statement indicates, you and I completely agree that at least a dueling system (provided a spamming avoidance mechanic is in place) is a good way to provide world pvp functionality.
All this comes down to one thing, the only thing I ever even cared about:
Would you (or anyone else reading this) agree that some sort of world pvp (if only a dueling system) should be present as an alternative to strictly joining arenas?
A duel system like this still doesn't address the issue of two people dueling and ruining the fun of two other players in the game. That'd be the only issue I have with it. The game is designed in a way that requires most/all of the players in a game to progress, so this duel system would cause some problems still. Since its a mutual duel anyways, why is this better then just a duel option for Arena? Kinda curious..
Honestly, no solution for world PvP will be a 'good' one from what I can tell. Any solution harms one side or another. PvP specific games, will have very long queue time as the majority play PvM. Allowing a form of hostility harms PvM players by forcing them into PvP when they don't wish to be. If they aren't forced to actually PvP (say they teleport to town), they are stuck having to quit the game or wait for the PvP'er to get tired of PvPing in order to continue progressing. These just aren't good options.
I really don't even agree to the reason you suggested for wanting world PvP, Glitterpony. Having the ability to 'put people in their place' isn't a GOOD feature. To me, it really sounds like bullying and how does that help the community? No, I think Arena is the best place for PvP in Diablo 3 nothing anyone has suggested so far has changed that.
You know what.. I'm going to go back to the question I've asked a few times in the various hostility threads...What does hostility bring to the table that PvP Arena's do not, besides the ability to grief other players? Give me a good reason that they should devote resources to add a system to Diablo 3 that the majority of players dislike.
See, the issue is not that we don't want you to have fun PvPing. Hell, I will most definitely participate in Arena once it is released. The issue is that we don't want to be FORCED to PvP when we want to just PvM. Diablo 3 has a completely different system for handling games (no game lists, just public and private).
What is the difference between open-PvP and the Arena system? Well, you cannot just go hostile and attack someone...which is actually a good thing. You cannot go duel someone in the middle of a progression run, making the two other people quit...oh wait..that's also a good thing. You cannot make up your own rules for PvP matches...ok...I give you that one.
Guess what?! I got a suggestion for a solution, private Arena matches...you make your own PvP game, invite players, make up your own rules and fight it out. Simple, fits in the current design, and offers the flexibility most want with open-PvP. Gives you the opportunity to battle with others that want to battle like you, and lets us that don't...not. These private Arena's could allow for spectators to let people stream and commentate battles, without Blizzard giving the impression that they are pushing eSports. By doing that, it lets them off the hook and lets people turn the game into an eSport on their own if they like (without completely balanced classes of course).
See, I'm not against PvP. What I am against is people trying to shoehorn Diablo 2 into a new game (Diablo 3). Blizzard chose to make the focus of Diablo 3 be PvM. They learned from the issues they had with allowing PvP to drive PvM design from WoW...essentially PvP ruined a lot of the PvM experience because having the awesome abilities or chance on hits meant they were too good or too bad for PvP. It is good that they've taken the direction they have as it lets them make the game feel a lot more epic, making abilities smash through enemies as you work your way through the story. They didn't neglect PvP in this new design, but they did decide to make it a more casual experience.
Blizzard doesn't expect you to buy Diablo 3 for PvP, they expect you to buy it to play through the story and grind for gear. That's what Diablo has always been about and its still the case here. If you like the new PvP system they offer, awesome...I'm sure I will. If you don't, enjoy the story and be done...it'll still be worth your money. If you don't think it's worth your money because it doesn't have epic PvP...then don't buy it. Whatever option you choose, don't try to shoehorn a very old tacked on PvP system into a game that already has its own PvP system.
"Rules of Engagement" - Any player to declare hostility against other players has a temporary debuff applied. Perhaps it starts as a -25% reduction to all stats @ 10 minutes sort of thing. For each minute that passes 2.5% of that debuff is retracted until the buff diminishes entirely... so:
Hostility can still only be declared from town and you can only hostile someone within X (5+/-) levels of your character... as always, hostiling someone puts you against anyone in their party as well.
That seems like a fun idea to mess around with....
This still allows griefing, which will create a the same situation that Diablo 2 had where people just stopped making public games, essentially causing the split between PvM and PvP Diablo players that we see today. Not having hostility and focusing PvP on Arenas has actually had a good amount of us PvM players interesting in PvP for Diablo 3. It'll be something we can choose to do, we won't be forced to.
The second issue this solution doesn't deal with is that the PvM game is tuned for having all players participate in progressing. If two leave mid-game to go duel, it essentially griefs the other two players by not allowing them to continue progressing. This again would create a situation where the PvP players is stepping on the desires of the PvM players.
I'm proposed an alternative solution that allows for these kind of duels, but keeps them part of Arena...private PvP Arena games. Essentially you'd create a private PvP game, choose the Arena type and invite players yourself. This would let you have unbalanced teams, spectators, etc. To go along with this idea, I support a FFA Arena type. Combined, a private FFA Arena match would essentially let the players make up the rules completely. Private PvP matches would not count towards your public matchmaking and as such could be used to practice as well. Seems like a good way to get the dueling and control that many PvP players want, without stepping on the PvM players.
I was (and still am) dissapointed about the complete lack of world PvP in D3. I'm sure I'll be all over arenas whenever I'm not farming Inferno later on, but I really wish there was some system in place to have a "less formal" PvP solution.
It really did add a sense of excitement to the game when someone came in and hostiled the group.
There certainly needed to be improvements on the D2 system but complete removal might have been too harsh a reaction...
Perhaps you can offer some suggestions as to how they could make the system better, in a way that would benefit the overall community and justify the development resources to implement? Hostility was a negative feature of Diablo 2 other then the fact that it was the only way you could PvP. It created a rift in the community as many people stopped making non-passworded games because of griefing. I don't see how it would fit well at all with the way Diablo 3 is designed, and have explained why... However, if you can give some insight into how it might be implemented in a way that would work with the game's design and benefit the community, I'd love to hear it.
Man again..get off the esports thing dude. I have yet to say ANYTHING that is even remotely insinuating that I want esports or do I think it is a good idea. I don't know what you are reading that gives you that idea, but you are wrong haha.
I mention eSport because that's what competitive PvP leans towards. If you want, I'll rephrase what I said instead...Diablo 3 is not designed around competitive PvP in general. As I've stated (as well as Blizzard has stated), Diablo 3 has a game design model focused around PvM. Despite that, Blizzard has made the decision to implement a fully integrated PvP system.
However, that system isn't 'what you want'...so you complain and talk like Blizzard is a failure because they aren't doing things your wait. News flash, Blizzard is a business. As a business that has been making games for many many years, they have a pretty good idea of what their overall player-based wants. I've never been disappointed in a single game Blizzard has released...so I guess I'm part of their target market. If you dislike the direction they are going so much to complain like this, perhaps you're not. That doesn't mean Blizzard did wrong.. it just means its not the game for you.
I've tried playing nice and explaining a plausible reason as to why Blizzard likely chose the path they did. I sat and explained why hostility is a bad idea given the context of the game. I've even tried to suggest ways they could offer what you want, but maintain the path they chose for the game...and what happens? More complaining. If you don't like the path they've chosen this much, perhaps its not the game for you...seriously.
If you think it is still the game for you...maybe you should learn to accept that you're probably not the exact target market Blizzard was shooting for, think about why they chose to do what they did, and actually listen to those that are posting logical explanations...
I am asking the EXACT opposite...can you not read? I DON'T WANT BLIZZARD TO MUDDLE WITH PVP...is that clear enough? I want to ability to make my own rules, which is simple. I am not asking for hostility, it would be fantastic if it was in it...but I can live without it. I don't want Blizzard tying my hands because they are to lazy to code proper PvP in the game, just give me the power to do what I want in the arena. They don't have to do shit, just stay out of it cause they will ruin it. That is why D2 had great high end PvP, because we didn't have them sticking their nose in it.
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Aka.. there is no PvP engine AT ALL currently. So, if you don't want Blizzard to muddle with PvP at all...you're saying you don't want them to do it. Blizzard isn't being too lazy to code a proper PvP system into the game, quite the opposite in fact...they are coding a proper structured casual PvP system into the game. It might not be for you, but that's the direction Blizzard has chosen for PvP and a lot of the community prefers it this way. Diablo 2 didn't have great PvP. It has extreme elitist PvP where unless you bought items or spent years farming for them, you always lost. It wasn't fun at all for newer players and mostly was used to grief other players.
Diablo 3 isn't meant for competitive eSport-style PvP. Not at all, in fact. So if that is what you're looking for...you need to look into other games, because this isn't the one for you. If, however, you can be content with playing through an epic story...grinding monsters with friends in infernal...or casually killing people in Arena...then this might be the game for you. That's what Diablo 3 is and what it's been designed and balanced around. Hostility has no place in this design and unless you can explain HOW it does, within the design of the game...I'll continue to believe as such.
That is just it though. I am not asking for Blizzard to do anything beside give us the power to do what we want. Has nothing to do with esports or competitiveness. Give us the power to make it what we want it, not tie our hands and throw us in the corner like red headed step children.
Again, you're asking for a focus on PvP that wasn't intended. Blizzard didn't design Diablo (any of them) around PvP. Their goal has always been PvM first, PvP last. In Diablo 3 they are offering a fully structured and integrated PvP system to allow people to easily and casually fight players. Its not meant for some tournament system, eSport, etc. However, a simple private Arena system with an FFA mode WOULD give you exactly what you want (Diablo 2 PvP in Diablo 3, essentially).
Hostility is a bad option given the design of Diablo 3, period. This has been explained many times...and no-one has been able to give a good reason for it. With four players max, and the game balanced around needing all of the players to clear content...its just not a good idea to allow two people to delay everything to battle it out. Its not how Diablo 3 was designed and expecting it to change at this point in development is asking way too much.
Except that Diablo 2 wasn't based on PvP either and yet we had options to do customized PvP. If the arena doesn't allow customization options like 1v1, 1v2, ect then it will be a total fail. It will be nothing more than team based gutter trash with random...kinda like GW random arena...gutter trash. It is fun once or twice to see how far you can go with your luck but in the end it is pointless. May as well just take out arena period at that point and give us a horde mode.
Diablo 2 didn't have options... it just had hostility and that's it. You're mistaking that for options as it let players make the rules. Diablo 3 PvP isn't meant to be eSport competitive PvP, its casual PvP just to have fun killing other players. Expecting more then that, will likely have you disappointed.
As I've mentioned though, I could see them offering private PvP games. If they add a FFA option with private PvP games, players could do exactly what they did in Diablo 2...make their own rules. This would give you what you want without adding too much complexity to the system itself.
Edit: I love you using insulting terms to refer to the system as well. Just because it won't be what you want doesn't make it 'gutter trash'. The way the PvP system has been described by Blizzard actually appeals to a wider audience, which is actually a GOOD thing. If all you want out of D3 is super competitive PvP...you should be looking at other games instead.
A vote to kick feature doesn't solve the problem. If two people choose to duel and two people don't want them to duel, how does vote to kick work? It doesn't.
The main point is that no-one should be FORCED to PvP in a game where the main goal is to kill MONSTERS. I'm going to PvP, I already know this. However, I expect to be able to PvP when and if I choose to, not have someone join my game and try to kill me. Arena is a better option for PvP with Diablo 3's game design. It just is.
There is no game list in Diablo 3, only public and private games (a system that I find actually works very well). If there are going to be too few people to have a good queue, then developing resources to maintain add and maintain the game-mode is unrealistic. It'd be spending time to gain nothing out of it (other then maybe complaints when a hardcore player accidentally joins a hostile game and loses everything).
It would be great, except for one large problem. It'd be extra development to maintain a separate queuing system that wouldn't be used my the majority. Because it isn't used by the majority, it would also have VERY high queue times (aka waiting 10-20 minutes per game). It really doesn't seem like a good option for Blizzard to pursue from my perspective.
How would you propose to solve the issue I mentioned before? That being, dueling in a public game essentially killing progress for the other two players? The only solution I could see to this would be to make it in private games only and at that point, what makes it any different then just inviting the player to Arena instead (assuming they add a duel Arena)?
A duel system like this still doesn't address the issue of two people dueling and ruining the fun of two other players in the game. That'd be the only issue I have with it. The game is designed in a way that requires most/all of the players in a game to progress, so this duel system would cause some problems still. Since its a mutual duel anyways, why is this better then just a duel option for Arena? Kinda curious..
I really don't even agree to the reason you suggested for wanting world PvP, Glitterpony. Having the ability to 'put people in their place' isn't a GOOD feature. To me, it really sounds like bullying and how does that help the community? No, I think Arena is the best place for PvP in Diablo 3 nothing anyone has suggested so far has changed that.
What is the difference between open-PvP and the Arena system? Well, you cannot just go hostile and attack someone...which is actually a good thing. You cannot go duel someone in the middle of a progression run, making the two other people quit...oh wait..that's also a good thing. You cannot make up your own rules for PvP matches...ok...I give you that one.
Guess what?! I got a suggestion for a solution, private Arena matches...you make your own PvP game, invite players, make up your own rules and fight it out. Simple, fits in the current design, and offers the flexibility most want with open-PvP. Gives you the opportunity to battle with others that want to battle like you, and lets us that don't...not. These private Arena's could allow for spectators to let people stream and commentate battles, without Blizzard giving the impression that they are pushing eSports. By doing that, it lets them off the hook and lets people turn the game into an eSport on their own if they like (without completely balanced classes of course).
See, I'm not against PvP. What I am against is people trying to shoehorn Diablo 2 into a new game (Diablo 3). Blizzard chose to make the focus of Diablo 3 be PvM. They learned from the issues they had with allowing PvP to drive PvM design from WoW...essentially PvP ruined a lot of the PvM experience because having the awesome abilities or chance on hits meant they were too good or too bad for PvP. It is good that they've taken the direction they have as it lets them make the game feel a lot more epic, making abilities smash through enemies as you work your way through the story. They didn't neglect PvP in this new design, but they did decide to make it a more casual experience.
Blizzard doesn't expect you to buy Diablo 3 for PvP, they expect you to buy it to play through the story and grind for gear. That's what Diablo has always been about and its still the case here. If you like the new PvP system they offer, awesome...I'm sure I will. If you don't, enjoy the story and be done...it'll still be worth your money. If you don't think it's worth your money because it doesn't have epic PvP...then don't buy it. Whatever option you choose, don't try to shoehorn a very old tacked on PvP system into a game that already has its own PvP system.
This still allows griefing, which will create a the same situation that Diablo 2 had where people just stopped making public games, essentially causing the split between PvM and PvP Diablo players that we see today. Not having hostility and focusing PvP on Arenas has actually had a good amount of us PvM players interesting in PvP for Diablo 3. It'll be something we can choose to do, we won't be forced to.
The second issue this solution doesn't deal with is that the PvM game is tuned for having all players participate in progressing. If two leave mid-game to go duel, it essentially griefs the other two players by not allowing them to continue progressing. This again would create a situation where the PvP players is stepping on the desires of the PvM players.
I'm proposed an alternative solution that allows for these kind of duels, but keeps them part of Arena...private PvP Arena games. Essentially you'd create a private PvP game, choose the Arena type and invite players yourself. This would let you have unbalanced teams, spectators, etc. To go along with this idea, I support a FFA Arena type. Combined, a private FFA Arena match would essentially let the players make up the rules completely. Private PvP matches would not count towards your public matchmaking and as such could be used to practice as well. Seems like a good way to get the dueling and control that many PvP players want, without stepping on the PvM players.
Perhaps you can offer some suggestions as to how they could make the system better, in a way that would benefit the overall community and justify the development resources to implement? Hostility was a negative feature of Diablo 2 other then the fact that it was the only way you could PvP. It created a rift in the community as many people stopped making non-passworded games because of griefing. I don't see how it would fit well at all with the way Diablo 3 is designed, and have explained why... However, if you can give some insight into how it might be implemented in a way that would work with the game's design and benefit the community, I'd love to hear it.
I mention eSport because that's what competitive PvP leans towards. If you want, I'll rephrase what I said instead...Diablo 3 is not designed around competitive PvP in general. As I've stated (as well as Blizzard has stated), Diablo 3 has a game design model focused around PvM. Despite that, Blizzard has made the decision to implement a fully integrated PvP system.
However, that system isn't 'what you want'...so you complain and talk like Blizzard is a failure because they aren't doing things your wait. News flash, Blizzard is a business. As a business that has been making games for many many years, they have a pretty good idea of what their overall player-based wants. I've never been disappointed in a single game Blizzard has released...so I guess I'm part of their target market. If you dislike the direction they are going so much to complain like this, perhaps you're not. That doesn't mean Blizzard did wrong.. it just means its not the game for you.
I've tried playing nice and explaining a plausible reason as to why Blizzard likely chose the path they did. I sat and explained why hostility is a bad idea given the context of the game. I've even tried to suggest ways they could offer what you want, but maintain the path they chose for the game...and what happens? More complaining. If you don't like the path they've chosen this much, perhaps its not the game for you...seriously.
If you think it is still the game for you...maybe you should learn to accept that you're probably not the exact target market Blizzard was shooting for, think about why they chose to do what they did, and actually listen to those that are posting logical explanations...
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Aka.. there is no PvP engine AT ALL currently. So, if you don't want Blizzard to muddle with PvP at all...you're saying you don't want them to do it. Blizzard isn't being too lazy to code a proper PvP system into the game, quite the opposite in fact...they are coding a proper structured casual PvP system into the game. It might not be for you, but that's the direction Blizzard has chosen for PvP and a lot of the community prefers it this way. Diablo 2 didn't have great PvP. It has extreme elitist PvP where unless you bought items or spent years farming for them, you always lost. It wasn't fun at all for newer players and mostly was used to grief other players.
Diablo 3 isn't meant for competitive eSport-style PvP. Not at all, in fact. So if that is what you're looking for...you need to look into other games, because this isn't the one for you. If, however, you can be content with playing through an epic story...grinding monsters with friends in infernal...or casually killing people in Arena...then this might be the game for you. That's what Diablo 3 is and what it's been designed and balanced around. Hostility has no place in this design and unless you can explain HOW it does, within the design of the game...I'll continue to believe as such.
Again, you're asking for a focus on PvP that wasn't intended. Blizzard didn't design Diablo (any of them) around PvP. Their goal has always been PvM first, PvP last. In Diablo 3 they are offering a fully structured and integrated PvP system to allow people to easily and casually fight players. Its not meant for some tournament system, eSport, etc. However, a simple private Arena system with an FFA mode WOULD give you exactly what you want (Diablo 2 PvP in Diablo 3, essentially).
Hostility is a bad option given the design of Diablo 3, period. This has been explained many times...and no-one has been able to give a good reason for it. With four players max, and the game balanced around needing all of the players to clear content...its just not a good idea to allow two people to delay everything to battle it out. Its not how Diablo 3 was designed and expecting it to change at this point in development is asking way too much.
Diablo 2 didn't have options... it just had hostility and that's it. You're mistaking that for options as it let players make the rules. Diablo 3 PvP isn't meant to be eSport competitive PvP, its casual PvP just to have fun killing other players. Expecting more then that, will likely have you disappointed.
As I've mentioned though, I could see them offering private PvP games. If they add a FFA option with private PvP games, players could do exactly what they did in Diablo 2...make their own rules. This would give you what you want without adding too much complexity to the system itself.
Edit: I love you using insulting terms to refer to the system as well. Just because it won't be what you want doesn't make it 'gutter trash'. The way the PvP system has been described by Blizzard actually appeals to a wider audience, which is actually a GOOD thing. If all you want out of D3 is super competitive PvP...you should be looking at other games instead.