I completely agree if it delays the game's release. Having said that, this content has too much potential to be ignored for future development, and it can't hurt to let the developers know that there is support behind these ideas.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I disagree. I think competitive formats (if done correctly) would attract an overwhelmingly large amount of the player base. I think E-sports style competition is what is relegated to the more hardcore players, and that's perfectly understandable to be honest, but there is SO MUCH potential with other competitive formats. I've talked about them exhaustively in other threads, check out this link if you're interested and bump the thread.
...
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
Because I (and I am not alone) would like to participate and compete at an equal level in the pvp arena using the same character I use in the game, i.e. without spending a tonne of additional time (I will already be spending a tonne of time on my game character) developing a different character that is specifically used if I want to play pvp.
I don't know what is involved in developing a pvp game that you and other disappointed gamers want, but I assume it is quite a lot, otherwise we could ALL have best of both worlds. i.e. 1/ normal game, 2/ pvp arena (using same characters as in-game), and 3/ pro-gamer arena (I think this is what you want where you have specific character builds just for pvp?)
Wait.. so you want to exclude any form of competitive PvP because YOU aren't willing to put in the effort to compete? You simply want to be able to take any character into a competitive format without any thought input into choosing abilities that would be effective against other players?
Your statements are completely contradictory. If any given player could take any given character into PvP with no thought or experience and be successful.. there would be no competition and thus the system would be meaningless by definition. Do you understand how ridiculous your statements are?
It sounds like you don't really want to participate in "competitive" PvP, and that's absolutely fine. There should also be non ranked "skirmish" scenarios that would probably be perfect for a gamer like yourself only interested in PvP for entertainment, or killing time.. I don't really understand it, but whatever. For you to suggest that the rest of us don't deserve a respectable form of competition from Diablo 3 because you don't want to compete is just ass-backwards logic.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Although I dispute your entire premise that only the most hardcore gamers desire competition, your argument doesn't even follow a logical formula.
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
There's nothing wrong with some relative imbalance. That's part of what makes PvP in gear-based games fun. "Skill" in gear-based and build oriented games isn't only relegated to "twitch" reactions, it's also based off creating unique builds and finding counters by exploiting weaknesses. It's just a different type of competition than say counterstrike or Halo. In my opinion that's what makes it so fun and it's really a shame to see the competitive potential of Diablo 3 go down the drain with the virtually infinite amount of builds and counter-builds that would arise in a competitive environment.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I really don't see why everyone either classifies themselves as a "PvE" player or a "PvP" player. Surely there must be some like-minded folks out there who agree that a good mix would add some great flavor to the game.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
At the most basic level, I'm simply asking for more development for PvP. Some balance between e-sports and unranked, meaningless TDM matches. That should be simple enough logic for most to follow. There is literally infinite amount of detail in between those 2 options. Hopefully the developers of this game dedicate some resources to that development, because it could add some incredible replay value and depth to the game after the dust settles and all the monsters are slain.
Everything else is simply ideas I've thrown out that I think would add some great flavor to the game.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
It is understandable that you are exhausted addressing this argument, because it isn't mine nor from the others you have addressed to. They are from Blizzard, it's official. I'm not saying that I agree with them, IMO a PVP ladder would be fine, I wouldn't try it, but many people would. That's fine by me.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
Now you are changing the original subject (or what I thought was the original subject), you are NOT asking for more PVP, you are asking for a Custom Game feature, which may or may not be followed by a public map creator just like SC2 and WC3. I think Blizzard already discarded that idea for some reasons I can't remember, search for them if you like, but while I believe the expasions will bring news to the known systems just as improve PVP modes, I don't believe in anything far different from the game focus.
And calm down, my posts contain no arguments, just some quotes from Blizzard and some opinions (which are very well determined when they start and end). I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, just trying to make you remember abou some announcements that showed that Blizzard have a different focus for D3.
I'm honestly just disappointed at the lack of imagination in the competition development of this game. The core game is fantastic, but it's really sad to see an extremely strong core engine and design go to waste on finite content that will be rolled through in a couple of months. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Diablo PvM, but it eventually ends. With systems in place that encourage competition, the game literally never ends, and actually begins to coincide synergistically with the PvM hamster-wheel game to achieve stronger and stronger characters to compete with.
For the record, those were just ideas. You basically asked what my I wanted, personally, from Diablo 3. I really don't see how implementing some competition modes into the game could be detrimental at all, or even require that much design time when compared with PvE content development. I actually think it would be extremely beneficial to the game and add new dynamics that would attract a wider player base.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Ok having read through a lot of all this over the past couple of days and I might be able to shed some light on what's going on, although almost everything that I'll say has already been said, I'm just attempting to put it into one post.
It's obvious we have a conflict, and while I could go into extreme detail I'll just clump a lot of it together to make it a little smoother. The PVP crowd wants competition AND balance, the PVE crowd doesn't want anything to change (in extreme cases for both), for the most part. As far as the pvp crowd goes, I believe you are meeting with a lot of resistance because you are 'scaring' the pve crowd. Now I know it's not everyone but its my belief that there are enough posts suggesting full overhauls of class skills, complete removal of some skills from the arena, and/or a change on said skills ( this coming from the demand for ranking, which a majority of people i would say believe that goes hand in hand with extreme balancing). Coming from the pve perspective i completely understand why i would just say screw it don't change a thing, aka 'go play pvp somewhere else'. I know i wouldn't want my skills to be split/deleted just for pvp.
Now to the pve side of people, you need to understand that there is almost jack shit for pvp at the moment, and its easy to understand their frustration. I realize that you as pve'ers don't want to see those awesome skills gone just for pvp ( i know i know another extreme, but I'm just trying to relay what some peoples thoughts are), especially when the argument has been made many times this game is leaning towards pve.
My solution (stolen from like 25 peoples posts put together) is almost what blizzard has already done: In the case of skills, I would only allow slight changes such as stun/snare/dot duration reduction, and some slight increase in CD's of SOME skills. Now obviously this won't balance the game completely, but I think its enough to satisfy the pvp crowd in terms of SOME sort of balance. I would also add a ranking system of some kind ( Maybe split it, like you can go into ranked or unranked matches), and add a couple different game types. Do PVP'ers agree that this would satisfy (maybe not 100%) what you are looking for? And for PVE'ers, would you agree that this won't dynamically change the game in your opinion, and can you live with it?
Absolutely. I think most PvPers are just grasping for some form of support from the devs, not anything close to E-sport balance. I honestly think the PvP game and PvE would work synergistically to create an amazing game with an enormous amount of replay value and high fun-factor if done right.
If we're looking at it from a WoW perspective, something akin to the balance in rated battlegrounds rather than arena. That's probably a horrible comparison but it should give some idea to the level of balance PvPers SHOULD be expecting from Diablo 3.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Ok, so we've established most of this is based on WoW. Thanks. That makes the arguemnts a little more fluid in that we have a point of reference.
No, you seem to make huge jumps in logic when they simply aren't there. Re-read my statements, in context. I was responding to your question about similar genres that have successfully achieved a harmony between PvP and PvE. WoW is pretty much the only model for comparison there.
My suggestions are completely independent from WoW and are suggested entirely on the basis of improvement of the game Diablo 3 for folks who enjoy a little competition mixed with their PvE endeavors.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
1- They clearly stated that the decision of not having a ladder is because that would make the game feel e-sport-like. They don't want to encourage that kind of thought, that is a design decision, not a thing that they won't do due time.
Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
2- As I said, I expect to see improvements in PVP in the next expansions. While I don't think this "feels like Diablo", maybe the fanbase doesn't and there's room for that. But time will tell. Personally, IMO, this feels a lot like Magicka, SC2 and WC3 custom games, and such.
I can't debate something you're feeling over the internet. This argument can't really be responded to. I'm simply suggesting some fun mechanics that could be added that many people would enjoy and improve the game. If it doesn't "feel" right to you, do not participate.
3- Same explanation of 1. They clearly stated that they DONT want people to think PVP is for competition, it is only for fun.
The vast majority of PvPers consider competition and fun to be synonymous. Competition is the very nature of PvP, at it's very heart.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
But you made it sound as though the ideal level of pvp development (presumably what you're talking about in this latest post) exists already in another game. What games are we drawing on (obviously mmo's, fps, etc) to make this list? And as I continued on to ask, what kind of relationship do those games have with D3?
I mean, it's all well and good to pick out an aspect of one game that you like, but we should pay some attention to how we adapt these things cross-title.
I've already addressed that point. I was specifically referring to the LMS format that we had already seen when stating "we've seen it." You simply took that out of context.
The closest model we've seen is WoW, where PvE and PvP abilities were not separated. That game turned out pretty fantastic, although I'm sure people will find a way to bash it. I'm simply suggesting that more support for competition in the game will pay off exponentially in terms of replay value, fun, and therefore customer satisfaction. I've stated my points many, many times. It's very easy to be negative and poke holes in ideas. It requires no imagination, simply a cynical attitude. If you're happy with how the game is, i.e. no competition that matter and a simple PvE grind for gear, just sit back, relax and wait for release. I'm not suggesting anything that will affect your enjoyment of the game, because everything I've suggested should be optional.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
But you're talking about pvp that isn't being implemented. That pvp is already in the game. It's been developed and it's not being removed. What's being argued here is that pvp should be further developed (to what end I suppose is up for continued debate). I'm asking you what you see as that end. In what games you see a similar end. And ultimately how you see continuity between that game and where D3 pvp could/should end up.
Here is exactly what I, personally, would like to see. This isn't set in stone by any means, and I'm 100% sure the developers could come up with far superior ideas than me. Tell me this doesn't sound incredible for the game:
1. A public ladder system for both TDM and LMS.
2. Unique competition modes, i.e.:
- Hoard Mode - teams of characters compete to hold off hoards of monsters. Whoever is over-run first loses.
- Content Racing - teams of characters compete PvM content (PvErs should love this!)
- "Objective" PvP - "Hold this point for x amount of time," "Find this chest first (i.e. treasure hunting but competitive," "Capture this point first" (CTF), protect the NPC, or VIP.
- Unique prestige awards for winners of all of these different formats. I.e. Titles, paraphernalia, aesthetic rewards, ears, etc. (I'm sure infinitely awesome things could be thought up that don't award gear but keep people competing)
- Winner takes all - Items or gold is put up for grabs to the winner. Would be amazing if the public had the ability to bid on the winner as well. This should be an OPTION for every format. If you don't want to participate, great, but for those that do it should be there.
3. 1 on 1 dueling system with competitive ladder support.
Probably more that I can't think of in 5 minutes.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3182738500
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Wait.. so you want to exclude any form of competitive PvP because YOU aren't willing to put in the effort to compete? You simply want to be able to take any character into a competitive format without any thought input into choosing abilities that would be effective against other players?
Your statements are completely contradictory. If any given player could take any given character into PvP with no thought or experience and be successful.. there would be no competition and thus the system would be meaningless by definition. Do you understand how ridiculous your statements are?
It sounds like you don't really want to participate in "competitive" PvP, and that's absolutely fine. There should also be non ranked "skirmish" scenarios that would probably be perfect for a gamer like yourself only interested in PvP for entertainment, or killing time.. I don't really understand it, but whatever. For you to suggest that the rest of us don't deserve a respectable form of competition from Diablo 3 because you don't want to compete is just ass-backwards logic.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
How will giving players the option to participate in something that could potentially provide some enjoyment (competitive PvP, alternate gameplay modes, PvE competition formats, etc.) disadvantage anyone? Does that make any sense to anyone?
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Everything else is simply ideas I've thrown out that I think would add some great flavor to the game.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I'm honestly just disappointed at the lack of imagination in the competition development of this game. The core game is fantastic, but it's really sad to see an extremely strong core engine and design go to waste on finite content that will be rolled through in a couple of months. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Diablo PvM, but it eventually ends. With systems in place that encourage competition, the game literally never ends, and actually begins to coincide synergistically with the PvM hamster-wheel game to achieve stronger and stronger characters to compete with.
For the record, those were just ideas. You basically asked what my I wanted, personally, from Diablo 3. I really don't see how implementing some competition modes into the game could be detrimental at all, or even require that much design time when compared with PvE content development. I actually think it would be extremely beneficial to the game and add new dynamics that would attract a wider player base.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Absolutely. I think most PvPers are just grasping for some form of support from the devs, not anything close to E-sport balance. I honestly think the PvP game and PvE would work synergistically to create an amazing game with an enormous amount of replay value and high fun-factor if done right.
If we're looking at it from a WoW perspective, something akin to the balance in rated battlegrounds rather than arena. That's probably a horrible comparison but it should give some idea to the level of balance PvPers SHOULD be expecting from Diablo 3.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
No, you seem to make huge jumps in logic when they simply aren't there. Re-read my statements, in context. I was responding to your question about similar genres that have successfully achieved a harmony between PvP and PvE. WoW is pretty much the only model for comparison there.
My suggestions are completely independent from WoW and are suggested entirely on the basis of improvement of the game Diablo 3 for folks who enjoy a little competition mixed with their PvE endeavors.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
I can't debate something you're feeling over the internet. This argument can't really be responded to. I'm simply suggesting some fun mechanics that could be added that many people would enjoy and improve the game. If it doesn't "feel" right to you, do not participate.
The vast majority of PvPers consider competition and fun to be synonymous. Competition is the very nature of PvP, at it's very heart.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I've already addressed that point. I was specifically referring to the LMS format that we had already seen when stating "we've seen it." You simply took that out of context.
The closest model we've seen is WoW, where PvE and PvP abilities were not separated. That game turned out pretty fantastic, although I'm sure people will find a way to bash it. I'm simply suggesting that more support for competition in the game will pay off exponentially in terms of replay value, fun, and therefore customer satisfaction. I've stated my points many, many times. It's very easy to be negative and poke holes in ideas. It requires no imagination, simply a cynical attitude. If you're happy with how the game is, i.e. no competition that matter and a simple PvE grind for gear, just sit back, relax and wait for release. I'm not suggesting anything that will affect your enjoyment of the game, because everything I've suggested should be optional.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Here is exactly what I, personally, would like to see. This isn't set in stone by any means, and I'm 100% sure the developers could come up with far superior ideas than me. Tell me this doesn't sound incredible for the game:
1. A public ladder system for both TDM and LMS.
2. Unique competition modes, i.e.:
- Hoard Mode - teams of characters compete to hold off hoards of monsters. Whoever is over-run first loses.
- Content Racing - teams of characters compete PvM content (PvErs should love this!)
- "Objective" PvP - "Hold this point for x amount of time," "Find this chest first (i.e. treasure hunting but competitive," "Capture this point first" (CTF), protect the NPC, or VIP.
- Unique prestige awards for winners of all of these different formats. I.e. Titles, paraphernalia, aesthetic rewards, ears, etc. (I'm sure infinitely awesome things could be thought up that don't award gear but keep people competing)
- Winner takes all - Items or gold is put up for grabs to the winner. Would be amazing if the public had the ability to bid on the winner as well. This should be an OPTION for every format. If you don't want to participate, great, but for those that do it should be there.
3. 1 on 1 dueling system with competitive ladder support.
Probably more that I can't think of in 5 minutes.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I'm referring to LMS PvP, which we've seen in video footage.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.