For a game to be an esport, skill has to be everything though. It doesn't matter if you can beat people with better gear who are bad. In an esport setting, everyone will be really, really good at the game. Everyone will be about as good as you. And then the guy with the better gear will win. Or the guy who lucked into a skill/rune setup that counters yours. Or the guys who lucked into a team comp that counters yours.
I know, and I am not looking for it to become an E-sport, I just want options for PvP both in arena and mid game.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
You could be loaded in gear but if you don't know how to use your character anyone could beat you, that is what made Diablo special. People tend to think good gear = god at pvp which it doesn't in Diablo, it might in WoW but that game is nothing but gear and Auto aimed skills which means the skill level is pretty much low. You are saying WoW is better and more involved yet WoW doesn't have near the reaction time required for D2 pvp nor does it have juking or aiming factor. Diablo is like chess as WoW is to checkers.
I'm gonna flat out pretend this post wasnt meant to actually be serious. Its funny you say gear meant nothing in Diablo, when Diablo is ALL gear. Hell most all rpg pvp games is very very very heavy in the gear to skill ratio.
This is why games like SC2, quake, and such are actually played as esports, whereas not even wow is played as one anymore.
I played my fair share of Diablo. From Release till wow Release. I dont consider using a few hotkeys and dodging some attack the pinnacle of my competitive gaming history. Esp. since the majority of the battles were simply won by showing up in the best gear available at the time.
It was a blast yes. It was the first rpg pvp I had ever done. I plan on pvp being my endgame focus for D3. But I'm not gonna be delusional and biased and sit here and say in good faith diablo 2 pvp was the most skillful things I've had the priviledge of playing. It was some of the most fun pvp I've ever done, but the most fun does not equal the most skillful.
Most people think the things they are good at are the most skillful. Or the things they play. Case in point I went gambling this weekend. My stepdad ONLY plays 3 card poker because he thinks its more skillful then texas holdem. Simply because he actually wins on a 3 card poker table. When its not, its just more fun because hes good at it.
Just enjoy the pvp for what it is when it comes out. If you want to do something "skillful" there are a bunch other games where you will garner far more notariety being good at then diablo.
Nah im not joking. What other RPG or game bases your win on the ability to dodge attacks and aim your own? FPS? Fighter? Diablo has the elements to make it a great PvP game, WoW does not. Again if you think gear makes or breaks Diablo PvP then we can go and make some open battle.net characters, you can get your guy the best legit gear in the game and ill make a guy and go buy gear off charsi and ill be a lower level and I can show you that your gear doesn't mean jack compared to skill buddy. Anyone who says gear > skill in Diablo 2 simply wasn't good at PvP.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
You could be loaded in gear but if you don't know how to use your character anyone could beat you, that is what made Diablo special. People tend to think good gear = god at pvp which it doesn't in Diablo, it might in WoW but that game is nothing but gear and Auto aimed skills which means the skill level is pretty much low. You are saying WoW is better and more involved yet WoW doesn't have near the reaction time required for D2 pvp nor does it have juking or aiming factor. Diablo is like chess as WoW is to checkers.
Look how long it took D2 to get to a relative balanced state.
I disagree here with this point. Diablo has always been balanced in a sense. No 1 class is overpowered, there is always a class or build that has an edge over another one. Diablo PvP is much like a fighting game in there are tier lists. Ele druid vs Hammerdin would be like a 8-2 matchup in Druid's favor. This is of course at high level play. Pally only gets the 2 by glitching game too with desynch, without it I would say it's a straight up murder, but the barbarian owns the druid, and the pally owns the barb.
Thanks for the deeper insight on why its so hard to balance. It makes more sense now.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
There has already been a thread regarding labeling people who bought items with real money. It will never make it in game, it segregates the community. Even without the RMAH people would buy items with money, this just makes it more convenient, and if it allows Blizzard to properly support Diablo 3 and keep it lag, bug and hack free then fantastic.
Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato
Thanks for the info from the other post. This makes sense, and I agree with most of it. Though, the person you described should have no reason to feel ashamed... and thus shouldn't care that it is revealed that they bought their items with real money....
I guess most of my reason for wanting a system of identification like this is if their was a quality PvP system implemented. That way if someone was say ranked #1, but they bought all their items... Then I could say, well... whatever, I don't feel so inferior... That guy just bought his #1 spot. Or, even better, have a whole other ladder for people using only dropped items etc....
I'm not the type to flame anyone, but I guess that could also happen, which obviously blizz would try and avoid.
I get your point, however there is no telling how bad of a grieving that person would receive from others for buying items because it isn't "legit" in their eyes. Also there will still be shops online that will sell items for money and there is no way to track that, so anyone who didn't want to be grieved would use that which would hurt the AH in the long run.
Thanks for the deeper insight on why its so hard to balance. It makes more sense now.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
There has already been a thread regarding labeling people who bought items with real money. It will never make it in game, it segregates the community. Even without the RMAH people would buy items with money, this just makes it more convenient, and if it allows Blizzard to properly support Diablo 3 and keep it lag, bug and hack free then fantastic.
Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato
Yeah, and it would definitely just take two minutes to implement too, damn them lazy bastards.
Currently we have 1, I repeat ONE single arena mode for PvP. Are you really trying to infer that this is an acceptable balance of development time compared to the other 99.9999999999% of the game that's completely devoted to PvE?
I understand this is primarily a PvE game, and I'm fine with that. The point is that it would take a very minute amount of effort (when compared with PvE developement) to implement a few creative PvP options. It wouldn't hurt ANYONE and the game would be much more well-rounded and draw in a broader audience because of it.
If even a fraction of development was spent on PvP (judging by how awesome PvE is looking) I have no doubt we could have a great PvP experience in Diablo 3.
Explain to me what the responsibilities of the "PvP strike team" (Jay Wilson quote) are again? What do they even do?
- no balance
- no design
- no ranking system
WTF do they do?
I agree with you. However I am sure more PvP modes will reveal themselves either by launch or after launch. I don't follow WoW but from what I remember they didn't have jack for PvP and now it is considered an "E-sport" which is a bunch of crock but that is another story. If there is a demand for it Blizzard will comply. Let them finish Diablo how they feel and once we get our hands on it then we can make steps toward a true PvP for Diablo 3.
Bottom line is I doubt PvP will be insanely unbalanced, every class will be viable with some holding advantages over others just like Diablo 2, not impossible to win however. Play the game how you want, there is a great PvM community and there is a great PvP community with online ladders and rankings. I fully expect Diablofans to have such a ladder and ranking and Diablo 3's own pvp section when the game releases. Only thing I ask for is 1v1 and duels mid PvM or in town, I don't want to have to leave game and make an arena to duel someone, that is just dumb.
You guys either didn't play Diablo 2 or don't remember. How much support did Diablo 2 get from Blizzard? Did they balance anything or fix anything? No. They put a hotfix out which removed bugs or dupes for like a day and was hacked again, that is about all. The Diablo community created the PvP rules, they created the builds, they created PvP, they created everything, and they will again in Diablo 3 with or without Blizzards support. If you want ranked matches on Diablo 3 pvp then look up an online ladder, simple.
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Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato