Okay so you just said that hunting for items (runes) was end game. So
substitute that rune for whatever ancient item of your set piece of
have..and its now the same argument. Min/maxing your character for the
best possible setup is the end game. You've just given me the exact
same scenario but in diablo 2 terms..both are exactly interchangeable so
what are you trying to argue? As far as my statement about PVP, okay
PVP aside, you min-maxed your character to destroy PVE and that was the
"End game". Your argument literally makes zero sense because again as I stated, the end game for people is what YOU make of it.
Except rune words weren't simple min-maxing. With Ancient items, your simply getting a little bit more of a couple of stats. It's a very generic and boring way to min-max. it's true that in an ARPG there will eventually be some of this, and that's fine. The problem is the journey.
What runewords did in D2, and what I'd like to see in D3 in some form, is a long term investment that isn't just a little extra raw damage on my weapon, or some extra character stats (str, vit, etc). I'd like to see some of the more powerful affixes that influence gameplay put here, so that you gather items and do everything you do now, while also slowly working towards an item or 2 that influence gameplay even more. The biggest difference between this and ancients, is that you don't work toward ancients, you just wait until they drop. What I liked about runes words (and again the new long term system doesn't need to copy that concept exactly), is that while I was getting rares and uniques that could help me achieve a build (or make it stronger/easier to play), I could also pick up runes and work toward a RW that complemented things.
What I feel like D3 lacks is something that complements the hunt for ancients. Something else to be doing. Paragon is pretty boring and just gives flat stat benefits, and leg gems after 25 are just incremental increases in their powers. Those systems are nice and all, but adding in another system that gives players something to build over time, rather than waiting for a single drop your waiting for any decent "rune" or whatever to drop, so that you can work toward this RW you want. This seemed to be what they were doing with sets for a while, when they made them more rare, and you could slowly build toward the set build, but before they revamped all of the sets and made them worth slowly building, they made them extremely easy to obtain.
Ultimately the idea is to add systems that complement decisions they've already made, but elongate that middle period where you are in the "end-game" but aren't hunting for a better ancient to min-max a bit more. Right now, the game becomes that very quickly, and then it's easy to get bored after 100 hours and not finding an upgrade for your build. Obviously what I'm asking for is just kicking that can down the road a bit, but eventually an H&S game will come down to small incremental upgrades like the end game is now. I'm hoping to make the journey to that a little longer, and more interesting is all.
OMG! My favorite build isn't strong enough! I want it to be more competitive with that other build. Why is that build stronger than me? What? They nerfed that build so it isn't as strong anymore? I hate that! I want, they should, we can't ....
Reading these types 'suggestion' threads, it plain to see, some people just like to bitch. Are there things I think would be cool to get, see, have, try? Sure. But I play because it is fun, and I enjoy it. If the joy has gone from this game for you, play a different game, there are many available to you.
While I agree that at times, posts can just be a chance to bitch about literally anything, and also that the title of this thread is a bit on the obnoxious side, as it's nothing about what this game "needs" is "pretty obvious", suggesting/theorizing ways to make the game even better than it currently is has tons of value.
One can like the game and enjoy it for what it currently is, and desire for it to be better and more entertaining. It's not a binary thing where you either think the game is perfect or have lost all joy in it. There are lots of ways to improve the game, particularly without basically making it a completely different game, and player's trying to suggest ways to do that should be encouraged.
What long term goal are you referring to? D2 never had one, it never needed one. I wish people would understand what the Hack and Slash Genre is. You farm to mix/max your character and push yourself and that's pretty much it. The end game is what YOU make of it. D2 received very small patches throughout its lifetime so compared to Diablo 3 they've gone above and beyond improving this game when they really don't need to at all anymore. I was a huge critic of this game when it shipped because it was garage and terribly imbalanced but they've made tons of great changes. The game does need a viable form of PVP or world PVP where you can just go outside of town and duel. That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that.
D2 totally did. Did you ever try making a rune word without trading for all of the duped runes floating around? It was a long term goal to try to gather the runes needed to create the RW you desired. But, since there were ways to always be working toward that goal (countess runes, hell forge ,the pit, etc), you could make progress on it steadily.
Paragon and legendary gems are attempts at this, but at least to me, they don't feel like quite enough. Just because they've done well at improving the game from launch doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done, even if it comes via another expansion.
Also, as with everything, sweeping statements lend don't strengthen an argument. Things like, "That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that." While that was true for some people, there are also plenty of people who never touched PVP in D2 and still managed to play it quite a bit. There is no one "right" way to play the game.
There is nothing much good in the game in runewords for them to be useful, no hit recovery or cast rate dmg goes to mana and all those peculiar and incredible things that made diablo 2 cool. For RW to be introduced in this game, the game it self needs come changes. Not to mention the dmg is weapon based.
This is a really good post.
Runewords in d2 were made by socketed items and interesting combinations of various affixes. In D3 we miss first of all the socketed items - only chest has 3 sockets meaning it's the only actual piece of gear that could have a decent runewords system on; maybe we could extend them for pants but two sockets only narrows the selection by a lot.
Second and equally important, the streamlined affixes made much easier to choose between what's good and bad, and it's usually dictated by the sets/builds. What can possibly add a runeword - more CHD/CHC/CDR?
Yes, they can work over some nice special affixes, but they could simpy make a new legendary item giving an additional choice (if powerful enough) instead of another mandatory gearing strategy.
Runewords in D2 were simply a crafting system that added a long term goal for players. The D2 devs chose to use sockets and socketed items as a medium for the crafting, but it was just crafting.
I make that distinction, because the important parts of what (at least I think) made the RW system popular:
1) They were powerful, but most builds still used some of the standard uniques, so they were important in certain slots, but not every slot was always a RW.
2) There was a long term goal that players could work toward while farming.
Crafting in D3 is just lackluster. If they were to add in 10-15+ materials that could just drop out in the world, and add crafted legendaries have some of the more powerful affixes, depending on how much effort it takes to craft the item, you've basically created the D3 version of runewords. There are other implementaions (there have been good threads here on dfans about crafting/runeword systems in D3), but this is just a simple version to show it can work. Drop rates for the materials would be the interesting part. Make them too rare, and it'll turn people off. Make them to common, and it won't be as much of "long" term goal.
More importantly though, I don't think that any one thing is "what diablo needs next". While I like the game, making it better would likely be some combination of improved crafting, more endgame objectives that promote different types of builds and power levels, other game systems (charms, jewels, the cube was a good addition), etc. I think it'll take more than any one of these things to take D3 to the next level.
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What runewords did in D2, and what I'd like to see in D3 in some form, is a long term investment that isn't just a little extra raw damage on my weapon, or some extra character stats (str, vit, etc). I'd like to see some of the more powerful affixes that influence gameplay put here, so that you gather items and do everything you do now, while also slowly working towards an item or 2 that influence gameplay even more. The biggest difference between this and ancients, is that you don't work toward ancients, you just wait until they drop. What I liked about runes words (and again the new long term system doesn't need to copy that concept exactly), is that while I was getting rares and uniques that could help me achieve a build (or make it stronger/easier to play), I could also pick up runes and work toward a RW that complemented things.
What I feel like D3 lacks is something that complements the hunt for ancients. Something else to be doing. Paragon is pretty boring and just gives flat stat benefits, and leg gems after 25 are just incremental increases in their powers. Those systems are nice and all, but adding in another system that gives players something to build over time, rather than waiting for a single drop your waiting for any decent "rune" or whatever to drop, so that you can work toward this RW you want. This seemed to be what they were doing with sets for a while, when they made them more rare, and you could slowly build toward the set build, but before they revamped all of the sets and made them worth slowly building, they made them extremely easy to obtain.
Ultimately the idea is to add systems that complement decisions they've already made, but elongate that middle period where you are in the "end-game" but aren't hunting for a better ancient to min-max a bit more. Right now, the game becomes that very quickly, and then it's easy to get bored after 100 hours and not finding an upgrade for your build. Obviously what I'm asking for is just kicking that can down the road a bit, but eventually an H&S game will come down to small incremental upgrades like the end game is now. I'm hoping to make the journey to that a little longer, and more interesting is all.
One can like the game and enjoy it for what it currently is, and desire for it to be better and more entertaining. It's not a binary thing where you either think the game is perfect or have lost all joy in it. There are lots of ways to improve the game, particularly without basically making it a completely different game, and player's trying to suggest ways to do that should be encouraged.
Paragon and legendary gems are attempts at this, but at least to me, they don't feel like quite enough. Just because they've done well at improving the game from launch doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done, even if it comes via another expansion.
Also, as with everything, sweeping statements lend don't strengthen an argument. Things like, "That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that." While that was true for some people, there are also plenty of people who never touched PVP in D2 and still managed to play it quite a bit. There is no one "right" way to play the game.
I make that distinction, because the important parts of what (at least I think) made the RW system popular:
1) They were powerful, but most builds still used some of the standard uniques, so they were important in certain slots, but not every slot was always a RW.
2) There was a long term goal that players could work toward while farming.
Crafting in D3 is just lackluster. If they were to add in 10-15+ materials that could just drop out in the world, and add crafted legendaries have some of the more powerful affixes, depending on how much effort it takes to craft the item, you've basically created the D3 version of runewords. There are other implementaions (there have been good threads here on dfans about crafting/runeword systems in D3), but this is just a simple version to show it can work. Drop rates for the materials would be the interesting part. Make them too rare, and it'll turn people off. Make them to common, and it won't be as much of "long" term goal.
More importantly though, I don't think that any one thing is "what diablo needs next". While I like the game, making it better would likely be some combination of improved crafting, more endgame objectives that promote different types of builds and power levels, other game systems (charms, jewels, the cube was a good addition), etc. I think it'll take more than any one of these things to take D3 to the next level.