Autocthon: A 20% paragon level difference in two seasons is the exact same level of competitive fairness no matter the absolute level differences.
No, it is not.
It is if you make a few assumptions regarding relative statistical weightings of paragon stats vs gear stats.
After a certain point 20% paragon = 20% mainstat = 20% faster kill speed
The lower paragon levels will have the most statistical discrepancy because 1 paragon point means more relative to total stats. Currently maximum main stat on items is about 10k. Assuming we ignore the first 800 points of paragon in order for paragon to be 50% of main stat you need 2800. At which point a 20% difference in paragon level (another 20% main stat paragon) equates to 10% more DPS. By the time you've reached 10k paragon you have 84% of main stat from paragon levels and another 20% paragon level equates to ~17% more DPS.
Eventually any given relative paragon level difference becomes essentially a relative DPS difference. Which is really what my statement is about. Until that point there will be some competitive drift but we're already well beyond the point where we will be seeing exceptionally significant drift.
The absolute value difference is completely meaningless though. It's a nonsensical metric that doesn't express comparative power between characters and the only way to eliminate it is to completely remove the level system as a product of playtime.
The "absolute power difference" you're talking about is just a product of relative stat totals (compounded a small amount by player efficiency). Barring capping XP gains per day there's no way to guarantee players with arbitrary playtime differences are on an "equal field".
Now if you wanted to "accurately" reflect player leaderboard standing then every player would need to be placed on a leaderboard respective to other p[layers in their playtime bracket. It would theoretically reflect player skill and efficiency of their leveling. If you wanted to perfectly reflect player efficiency then you'd have a leaderboard which ranks players based on their XP gain rate rather than their absolute XP total.
But it all boils down to there being no "scaling power gap". It's a figment of your imagination. The only time one EVER exists as you describe is if two players play at two different points in the season. A 20% paragon level difference in two seasons is the exact same level of competitive fairness no matter the absolute level differences. It's the same competition with bigger numbers.
The effect that XP inflation has on non-seasonal is a total non-issue of course. It's not intended to be "balanced" it's just a dumping ground for testing and casual play. The fact that there are even leaderboards at all is idiotic to be honest.
And FYI blizz is destroying XP bonus gear and XP calculation last I checked.
And how about we go and look at the actual time investiture difference between whatever arbitrary players we're comparing is between seasons? It does nothing to say players 1 and 60 have larger paragon gaps without also looking at their playtime gaps. Then we have to sit and look at how they reached that paragon (Rubies? Support builds? What are they ACTUALLY doing different). You need extensive and detailed information to make any REAL comparison between season leaderboards.
Valid point, I wanted to at least compare paragon earned against hours played but unfortunately the data wasn't available. I almost added a disclaimer but my post was too long as is. Even if you want to disregard that example though you should still be able to see that if you understand how the system works you can accurately determine that a widening power gap is inevitable.
Let me try a different sort of example based on math rather than incomplete statistics:
Every season/era there is power creep, this means we can farm paragon faster than before with each new patch. If this season we both farm paragon at a rate of 100 bil xp per hour and you play 5 hours a day but I play 6 then at the end of 1 week I will have gained 700 bil more xp than you.
Lets say next season power creep allows us to both farm 150 bil xp per hour. If we both play for the same number of hours again I will have 1050 bil more xp than you at the end of 1 week.
The difference between how much we both play doesn't change and yet the difference between your reward and mine increases. My previous example was certainly not scientific but by doing some basic math you can see that a similar outcome is inevitable just because of the systems current design.
(Disclaimer: 150 bil xp per hour next season is a number I pulled out my ass. No one knows what an accurate rate for farming xp next season/era is yet but surely we can all agree that next season/era we will be more powerful than this season/era and therefore able to farm paragon faster. This has already been demonstrated on the current PTR)
What you're not taking into account is that is we assume the case where the largest numeric paragon gap exists (perfectly linear paragon level XP requirement - plvl1 takes 100xp, plvl2 takes a total 200xp etc) the difference in paragon levels will always be the exact same. 20% more paragon on the player playing 20% more.
In any OTHER case (increasing XP requirement per progression) you actually see a smaller paragon gap relative to XP difference.
The part of the system that is broken isn't the XP gains going up making a bigger gap (the gap will always remain the excact same percentage difference no matter how you change the XP creep) it's the fact that a certain subset of gear loads (zDPS XP farming gear) gain exponentially more XP than other builds. The guys in top tier paragon levels are spending, by definition, significant amounts of time playing XP gear builds compared to their actual DPS characters.
In other words if we both farm XP at the same rate per hour we will always be split by a gap relative to our time spent farming and that gap will always be the same amount of power whether we reach paragon 1000 or 10000. 20% more playtime will always be 20% more experience will always be 20% more paragon will always be 20% more main stat. Baseline XP creep has no effect there.
Going back to your quoted numbers the number 1 earner has 22% more paragon than the number 60 earner in season 2. In season three the number 1 earner has 10% more paragon than second place and a 48% lead over 60th place. If we discount Vajet as most likely an anomaly then second place has a 33% lead over 60th place. We absolutely need information about how these players earned that experience as well as relative playime differences in both seasons, however if we assume second place and 60th place represent the same time investment as 1st and 60th in season one and also assume that neither player spent time in XP gear (not likely but necessary to treat them as equal) then the actual paragon gap inflation between seasons is only about 10%. eg the difference in relative power between characters. That's not a whole lot given how much baseline XP has changed.
To illustrate we're going to pretend it's season 10. Everything has gone crazy you're earning ridiculous nXP/hr without any XP gear. First place has got 130000 plvl, 60th is down at "only" 100000 and there's a 30000 plvl gap. Thing is that that 30000 level gap represents exactly the same power gap we're seeing right now (30% mainstat). There's no functional difference in relative character power between such a hypothetical season 10 and the real season 3.
The only major potential issue is XP momentum. That is where the gap is coming from and it isn't exactly difficult to fix. Doesn't need grand sweeping changes or anything just needs an actual curvature to XP requirements. You do need to keep i mind though that there IS a cap to XP/hour, you can only get XP so fast. And you need to remember that paragon levels at extremely high values of paragon (the point when the curve becomes flat) mean essentially nothing to your XP/hr. That means that players will initially pull away then recompress and stabilize as they hit the XP farming wall.
I expect to see a similar amount of power gap inflation in S4 as there was S3. About 10%. Assuming that XP gear builds contributed nothing to the gap.
The comparative power benefit of each paragon level does go down as paragon level goes up. Seriously. Even if the experience curve is perfectly flat you get LESS power going form level 1000-1001 than you do from 1001-1002
It's just that there are absolutely no other ways to get that .002% DPS once you reach a certain point.
Paragon gains are linear. Time investment is exponential. The entire system is designed SPECIFICALLY so that you have what is essentially a diminishing returns gain. The problem with GR leaderboards is that you either finished a rift or you didn't. Either you beta the stat check or you don't.
And how about we go and look at the actual time investiture difference between whatever arbitrary players we're comparing is between seasons? It does nothing to say players 1 and 60 have larger paragon gaps without also looking at their playtime gaps. Then we have to sit and look at how they reached that paragon (Rubies? Support builds? What are they ACTUALLY doing different). You need extensive and detailed information to make any REAL comparison between season leaderboards.
Personally I don't really give a crap. But at least use real statistics when you start talking about how broken the system is. We all know it's broken fortunately for us one of the big breaking mechanics is getting gutted in S4 in the form of XP gear.
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It is if you make a few assumptions regarding relative statistical weightings of paragon stats vs gear stats.
After a certain point 20% paragon = 20% mainstat = 20% faster kill speed
The lower paragon levels will have the most statistical discrepancy because 1 paragon point means more relative to total stats. Currently maximum main stat on items is about 10k. Assuming we ignore the first 800 points of paragon in order for paragon to be 50% of main stat you need 2800. At which point a 20% difference in paragon level (another 20% main stat paragon) equates to 10% more DPS. By the time you've reached 10k paragon you have 84% of main stat from paragon levels and another 20% paragon level equates to ~17% more DPS.
Eventually any given relative paragon level difference becomes essentially a relative DPS difference. Which is really what my statement is about. Until that point there will be some competitive drift but we're already well beyond the point where we will be seeing exceptionally significant drift.
The absolute value difference is completely meaningless though. It's a nonsensical metric that doesn't express comparative power between characters and the only way to eliminate it is to completely remove the level system as a product of playtime.
The "absolute power difference" you're talking about is just a product of relative stat totals (compounded a small amount by player efficiency). Barring capping XP gains per day there's no way to guarantee players with arbitrary playtime differences are on an "equal field".
Now if you wanted to "accurately" reflect player leaderboard standing then every player would need to be placed on a leaderboard respective to other p[layers in their playtime bracket. It would theoretically reflect player skill and efficiency of their leveling. If you wanted to perfectly reflect player efficiency then you'd have a leaderboard which ranks players based on their XP gain rate rather than their absolute XP total.
But it all boils down to there being no "scaling power gap". It's a figment of your imagination. The only time one EVER exists as you describe is if two players play at two different points in the season. A 20% paragon level difference in two seasons is the exact same level of competitive fairness no matter the absolute level differences. It's the same competition with bigger numbers.
The effect that XP inflation has on non-seasonal is a total non-issue of course. It's not intended to be "balanced" it's just a dumping ground for testing and casual play. The fact that there are even leaderboards at all is idiotic to be honest.
And FYI blizz is destroying XP bonus gear and XP calculation last I checked.
What you're not taking into account is that is we assume the case where the largest numeric paragon gap exists (perfectly linear paragon level XP requirement - plvl1 takes 100xp, plvl2 takes a total 200xp etc) the difference in paragon levels will always be the exact same. 20% more paragon on the player playing 20% more.
In any OTHER case (increasing XP requirement per progression) you actually see a smaller paragon gap relative to XP difference.
The part of the system that is broken isn't the XP gains going up making a bigger gap (the gap will always remain the excact same percentage difference no matter how you change the XP creep) it's the fact that a certain subset of gear loads (zDPS XP farming gear) gain exponentially more XP than other builds. The guys in top tier paragon levels are spending, by definition, significant amounts of time playing XP gear builds compared to their actual DPS characters.
In other words if we both farm XP at the same rate per hour we will always be split by a gap relative to our time spent farming and that gap will always be the same amount of power whether we reach paragon 1000 or 10000. 20% more playtime will always be 20% more experience will always be 20% more paragon will always be 20% more main stat. Baseline XP creep has no effect there.
Going back to your quoted numbers the number 1 earner has 22% more paragon than the number 60 earner in season 2. In season three the number 1 earner has 10% more paragon than second place and a 48% lead over 60th place. If we discount Vajet as most likely an anomaly then second place has a 33% lead over 60th place. We absolutely need information about how these players earned that experience as well as relative playime differences in both seasons, however if we assume second place and 60th place represent the same time investment as 1st and 60th in season one and also assume that neither player spent time in XP gear (not likely but necessary to treat them as equal) then the actual paragon gap inflation between seasons is only about 10%. eg the difference in relative power between characters. That's not a whole lot given how much baseline XP has changed.
To illustrate we're going to pretend it's season 10. Everything has gone crazy you're earning ridiculous nXP/hr without any XP gear. First place has got 130000 plvl, 60th is down at "only" 100000 and there's a 30000 plvl gap. Thing is that that 30000 level gap represents exactly the same power gap we're seeing right now (30% mainstat). There's no functional difference in relative character power between such a hypothetical season 10 and the real season 3.
The only major potential issue is XP momentum. That is where the gap is coming from and it isn't exactly difficult to fix. Doesn't need grand sweeping changes or anything just needs an actual curvature to XP requirements. You do need to keep i mind though that there IS a cap to XP/hour, you can only get XP so fast. And you need to remember that paragon levels at extremely high values of paragon (the point when the curve becomes flat) mean essentially nothing to your XP/hr. That means that players will initially pull away then recompress and stabilize as they hit the XP farming wall.
I expect to see a similar amount of power gap inflation in S4 as there was S3. About 10%. Assuming that XP gear builds contributed nothing to the gap.
The comparative power benefit of each paragon level does go down as paragon level goes up. Seriously. Even if the experience curve is perfectly flat you get LESS power going form level 1000-1001 than you do from 1001-1002
It's just that there are absolutely no other ways to get that .002% DPS once you reach a certain point.
Paragon gains are linear. Time investment is exponential. The entire system is designed SPECIFICALLY so that you have what is essentially a diminishing returns gain. The problem with GR leaderboards is that you either finished a rift or you didn't. Either you beta the stat check or you don't.
And how about we go and look at the actual time investiture difference between whatever arbitrary players we're comparing is between seasons? It does nothing to say players 1 and 60 have larger paragon gaps without also looking at their playtime gaps. Then we have to sit and look at how they reached that paragon (Rubies? Support builds? What are they ACTUALLY doing different). You need extensive and detailed information to make any REAL comparison between season leaderboards.
Personally I don't really give a crap. But at least use real statistics when you start talking about how broken the system is. We all know it's broken fortunately for us one of the big breaking mechanics is getting gutted in S4 in the form of XP gear.