It reminds me of LOTR too. But the more I think about it, I think smashing them at Hellforge simply made them incapable of returning to Sanctuary. But does that mean they return to Hell? And if they were all back in Hell, could they possibly be exiled again back into the mortal world? So many gaps in all of this I can't tell how it all must work.
Yeah, I never thought the rest had any power left in it either. But it did occur to me how supposedly the stones could only be destroyed at the Hellforge. That, or they could be destroyed elsewhere, it just wouldn't properly banish their spirits to where you'd want them to go.
the prime evils once existed i nthe world of sanctuary with soulstones they were then captured one by one and placed with a soulstone. Baal possibly due to his destructive nature, broke his, thus a sustitute for the missing piece was needed, Tal Rasha chose to be the substitute and wrestle with Baal for all etentity.
The manual specifically states that Baal shattered his own Soulstone in a battle against the Horadrim before they were able to imprison him. And yes, I think whatever shortcomings the shattered Soulstone had, Tal Rasha would make up for the rest of it.
But you are right, that at one time, all the Prime Evils existed in Sanctuary in physical form. Since they were hunted and had an actual battle with Baal, we could easily assume it was a physical demon. I don't think they were in some sort of ethereal form or anything. It's interesting to imagine what they might have looked like then.
Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »
one of the NPCs and i foget which (probably cain or that healy chick in act II) say Baal is in posession of the world's greatest mage. Baal could walk around without part of his soulstone because Tal Rasha was sacrificed to replace the broken part, in a way Tal Rasha is the soulstone and thus acts like the other stones, and must be in the host. but since there is still the bit of the stone that marius has, Baal seems weaker, and not at full strength, hence he would want to find the missing part (which marius has).
That was Fara that said that. But when you say the missing part of the Soulstone, do you mean that Tal Rasha is the other part? Because that Soulstone Marius has is all that's left of Baal's Soulstone. I just didn't know if you were thinking that the shattered pieces still existed in some form. Cause I think whatever shattered off the original piece, just turned into bits of regular stone.
Marius isnt talking to baal... the person marius is talking to is in a humaniod form, without the soul stone in tal rasha baal would assume his real form... that which you fight in act 5. and notice how tal rasha never really appears in the game, niether as an enemy or an NPC of sorts. i think baals soul must have escaped tal rashsa's body after the soul stone was removed,
If I remember correctly, the FAQ for LoD asks why Baal looks so different in the Expansion than how he appears in the original. I believe the answer was simply that he was metamorphisizing as his power was growing. But I believe the Baal version you see in the original Diablo II is still Baal with Tal Rasha as his host. He appears as some kind of skeletal figure in the cinematic of Act III, but I just think it's Baal's nature rapidly distorting Tal Rasha's human form.
Quote from "worldslayer608" »
thus finding a new, weaker host to feed on and corrupt. this creates baal in his true form. and after all of that, Marius is actually talking to a semi-corrupt, and no doubtedly enraged tal rasha, who slays Marius either out of anger for Marius's transgression of ripping out the soul stone, or out of mercy, wishing to put his troubled soul to rest, thus recieving the soul stone and persuing baal.. either to kill him, recapture him, or serve him...
Interesting. I've never considered that that one who kills Marius in the end is Tal Rasha alone. But I'm still pretty positive it is Baal/Tal Rasha who kills him. It is also important to keep in mind that having a powerful host actually bodes well for the Prime Evil inhabiting it. Since when Diablo was parasitic to Prince Albrecht in the first one, his powers weren't as formidabble as in the second one.
in that movie you are watching the fallen hero from diablo I, and you notice that he is corrupt and growing more demonic... but you also notice he drops the soulstone that posessed diablo's soul...
this could serve the purpose for introducing baal.. Marius follows the dark wanderer, who in this video is now without a soul stone, and thus not diablo, but a demonic character that marius fears in a sense...
the dropped soul stone?... well it could have been picked up by a child.. or a weak man and it could have corrupted him... this creates the new diablo.. and the dark wanderer is still on his journey.. upon marius removing the stone from tal rasha, the demonic warrior ALLOWS himself to be corrupted even further, and possessed by baal. so now baal and marius leave, meet up with diablo to open the portal. marius leaves, and tal rasha finds him to recover baals soul stone.
A couple of things, not in the most logical order (but I'm watching South Park as I write this). That trailer which premiered on the Brood Wars CD I believe, really didn't follow the way the game would later be developed. I'm sure they just wanted to show you the Soulstone like that to send your imagination reeling about the possibilites in Diablo II.
I've also found it interesting that Baal/Tal Rasha was walking around at all without his Soulstone. Cause once imprisoned in a Soulstone, there seems no existing in the mortal world without a mortal host. Unless you exist just inside the Soulstone which was the case for Diablo in the first game until he had control of Prince Albrecht. So I've often wondered what was unique about Baal that allowed him to exist while someone else has the stone that his soul or essence is supposedly held in.
Baal, Lord of Destruction (Excidium) The soldiers of Baal seek the undoing of the universe. They strive for ultimate disorder and destruction, and to this end covet the destruction of all they behold. Order is abhorrence to them and these creatures are the manifestation of the forces of chaos.
Diablo, Lord of Terror (Metus) Using illusion and fear as their greatest weapons, the attendants to Diablo are formidable adversaries. They prefer to wait for their opponent to display a moment of weakness before they attack. Equally dangerous in the dark or in your dreams, they are the fears of man made flesh by Diablo’s will. These nightmares lurk at the edges of mortal perception from the moment that you take your first breath - and they long to be with you when your take your last.
Mephisto, the Lord of Hatred (Odium) The legions of Mephisto are driven by a hatred of all living things - especially those who are pure of heart. He counts as minions both the walking dead, who forever seek vengeance upon the living, as well as a host of demonically corrupted creatures whose twisted limbs and misshapen bodies leave them in eternal agony and rage.
a very good read indeed
While it is interesting how different Prime Evils use their own minions, it seems for the most part they all still rely on brute force above all else.
I wouldn't mind seeing some monsters in the next game that can attack you mentally. Either by making everything around you suddenly go black, or upside down, or just anything else that might disorient you.
Perhaps they are just leaders in seperate contexts. What I like about the first Diablo manual is all the monsters it lists, it says whom they serve under. And it seemed like Baal's minions would definitely be on the frontline of any assault in an all out battle.
But yeah, I was just under the impression at least that Mephisto was the leader since he was the oldest and since Hatred seemed like the initial seed in sowing evil. But you could very well argue that it is fear or terror that comes first. Then destruction is just the inevitable after math of hatred and terror, or mopping up, so to speak.
But I believe it was mentioned how he and the Horadrim underestimated the Prime Evils and that in Tal Rasha's arrogance, he decided he could contend forever with the demon. Yes, it was supposedly a selfless act, but it was also part ego.
But was it Baal forcing Tal Rasha to trick Marius, or was it a maddened Tal Rasha begging for some kind of release, as he underestimated Baal's powers.
He never asks him to come. I figured Marius followed him truly out of apathy for his own existence. In other words, he figured, "There's absolutely nothing going for me in my life, I may as well see where this is going."
But it is strange he took it upon himself to pull the stone out of Tal Rasha/Baal. I'm not sure what his motives were behind that. It's funny how through all of that, Marius was never really rewarded, except for just being killed by Baal.
I wonder if Baal feared the ancients if he needed that relic...I dunno...what you guys think?
We were actually discussing this point earlier. And to I point, I would say yes to your question. If he didn't fear them, he at least worried he could not defeat them. For whatever reasons (hopefully ones we'll learn more about in the Sin War trilogy) the Nephilim are incredibly powerful and can easily contest with demons, perhaps even the Prime Evils.
But maybe what Baal also feared was time. Maybe it wasn't just that he needed to get into the World Chamber, but soon. And he could've easily been on par with the Nephilim as he fought them, but it would've been a very long drawn out battle and he needed to get in there as soon as possible.
As for Nihlathak, I believe he was corrupt even before all the Elders were slain. When you really analyze his dialogue, he comes off as a spiteful and manipulating snake. I do not believe it was the single event of the Elders' slaughter that made him this way, albeit it was a huge traumatic event.
Quote from "darkjay" »
the other elders sacrificed theirselfs in an attempt to save haggorath, nith was disturbed that he wasnt with the others so he tryed to save haggorath by giving baal the relic. the relic simply lets you pass onto the worldstone w/o meeting the ancients, i imagine baal put some sort of corruption on nith or he would have never kidnapped anya or used that damn c/e on you
Nihlathak actually was there for the summoning of the ward. The casting of the ward required that all seven Elders be there. He was one of the first Elders who reluctantly agreed to the plan. What truly drove him mad with guilt in the end was simply that he did not die with the other Elders. This actually leads me to believe that it wasn't until after the ward was erected that Baal then chose to contact him. This is just a theory, though. But it's relevent to me whether he had contact with Baal before or after the Elders were slain. So I'm trying to figure that out.
And I believe when it occurred was when the elders were erecting the Druidic ward. Cause during this time, all the elders were working on summoning the necassary magic, but Baal's minions were trying to stop them. The barbarian warriors managed to hold them off just long enough to bring up the ward, but were eventually overtaken as well as the rest of the elders. I believe it was in this moment of chaos that Nihlathak slipped away as if trying to escape. But really he had already made his deal with Baal and was going to meet him, or Baal's emmissary (which does seem more logical) at that time.
It would work as an alibi to claim that during all the fighting he managed to escape and hid somewhere till he felt it was safe to return to Harrogath. BUt he was actually using this time to flee with the Relic.
What then was the purpose of the Relic? Why should anyone be allowed to go into the Worldchamber without being tested? It could've been so Tyrael might enter freely in it, but the Ancients claim Tyrael was their benefactor and so I don't see why they would need to require him to to be tested or have the Relic to enter. It just seems dangerous to create an artifact that would allow someone to enter in untested; even if the exception to that was Tyrael.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
But you are right, that at one time, all the Prime Evils existed in Sanctuary in physical form. Since they were hunted and had an actual battle with Baal, we could easily assume it was a physical demon. I don't think they were in some sort of ethereal form or anything. It's interesting to imagine what they might have looked like then.
That was Fara that said that. But when you say the missing part of the Soulstone, do you mean that Tal Rasha is the other part? Because that Soulstone Marius has is all that's left of Baal's Soulstone. I just didn't know if you were thinking that the shattered pieces still existed in some form. Cause I think whatever shattered off the original piece, just turned into bits of regular stone.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Interesting. I've never considered that that one who kills Marius in the end is Tal Rasha alone. But I'm still pretty positive it is Baal/Tal Rasha who kills him. It is also important to keep in mind that having a powerful host actually bodes well for the Prime Evil inhabiting it. Since when Diablo was parasitic to Prince Albrecht in the first one, his powers weren't as formidabble as in the second one.
A couple of things, not in the most logical order (but I'm watching South Park as I write this). That trailer which premiered on the Brood Wars CD I believe, really didn't follow the way the game would later be developed. I'm sure they just wanted to show you the Soulstone like that to send your imagination reeling about the possibilites in Diablo II.
I've also found it interesting that Baal/Tal Rasha was walking around at all without his Soulstone. Cause once imprisoned in a Soulstone, there seems no existing in the mortal world without a mortal host. Unless you exist just inside the Soulstone which was the case for Diablo in the first game until he had control of Prince Albrecht. So I've often wondered what was unique about Baal that allowed him to exist while someone else has the stone that his soul or essence is supposedly held in.
Oh, and welcome to the forums.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
While it is interesting how different Prime Evils use their own minions, it seems for the most part they all still rely on brute force above all else.
I wouldn't mind seeing some monsters in the next game that can attack you mentally. Either by making everything around you suddenly go black, or upside down, or just anything else that might disorient you.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
But yeah, I was just under the impression at least that Mephisto was the leader since he was the oldest and since Hatred seemed like the initial seed in sowing evil. But you could very well argue that it is fear or terror that comes first. Then destruction is just the inevitable after math of hatred and terror, or mopping up, so to speak.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
But it is strange he took it upon himself to pull the stone out of Tal Rasha/Baal. I'm not sure what his motives were behind that. It's funny how through all of that, Marius was never really rewarded, except for just being killed by Baal.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
We were actually discussing this point earlier. And to I point, I would say yes to your question. If he didn't fear them, he at least worried he could not defeat them. For whatever reasons (hopefully ones we'll learn more about in the Sin War trilogy) the Nephilim are incredibly powerful and can easily contest with demons, perhaps even the Prime Evils.
But maybe what Baal also feared was time. Maybe it wasn't just that he needed to get into the World Chamber, but soon. And he could've easily been on par with the Nephilim as he fought them, but it would've been a very long drawn out battle and he needed to get in there as soon as possible.
As for Nihlathak, I believe he was corrupt even before all the Elders were slain. When you really analyze his dialogue, he comes off as a spiteful and manipulating snake. I do not believe it was the single event of the Elders' slaughter that made him this way, albeit it was a huge traumatic event.
Nihlathak actually was there for the summoning of the ward. The casting of the ward required that all seven Elders be there. He was one of the first Elders who reluctantly agreed to the plan. What truly drove him mad with guilt in the end was simply that he did not die with the other Elders. This actually leads me to believe that it wasn't until after the ward was erected that Baal then chose to contact him. This is just a theory, though. But it's relevent to me whether he had contact with Baal before or after the Elders were slain. So I'm trying to figure that out.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
It would work as an alibi to claim that during all the fighting he managed to escape and hid somewhere till he felt it was safe to return to Harrogath. BUt he was actually using this time to flee with the Relic.
What then was the purpose of the Relic? Why should anyone be allowed to go into the Worldchamber without being tested? It could've been so Tyrael might enter freely in it, but the Ancients claim Tyrael was their benefactor and so I don't see why they would need to require him to to be tested or have the Relic to enter. It just seems dangerous to create an artifact that would allow someone to enter in untested; even if the exception to that was Tyrael.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
I wonder now if Nihlathak actually met with Baal in person and gave it to him or if he gave it to one of his minions. And how and where did they meet?
Siaynoq's Playthroughs