I don't play anything but Hardcore. The problem I have with people being able to just go hostile at will is that I just found it really annoying. People would join games and go hostile just to scare every1 outa the game...It just gets really old and lame to me. Plus on Hardcore mode I've got enough monsters to worry about pwning me I don't wanna worry about pkers. I think PvP is split into two groups;
1: People who want to duel, or who mutually agree to fight eachother.
2: Pkers, people who try to kill someone, who isn't trying to kill them.
I'd rather not worry about #2.
Can't they just have a check box on the game creation screen that toggles PvP on/off?
Quote from "Sixen" »
Some people, however, do want to be hunted down at random and attacked. These sorts of people might find Diablo II game content fairly easy and wish to have the additional challenge of having to fight players while they play through the game. This might seem masochistic, and the group may be small, but these people exist and should not be ignored if they can be accommodated.
I understand the point the OP is making, but really Blizzard cannot appease everyone. I think it will come down to what they (Blizzard) think the majority of people will be happy with. If I did still have to worry about people hunting me down and Pking me in HC I'd get over it and deal with it. But Blizz has positioned themselves to not add anything that hurts or hinders cooperativeness...
I do like the idea of being able to choose what type of character you are. PvP or standard, and those players being able to play together. I think that type of system would work well.
I'm interested in seeing their solution to this matter.
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"A wizard is never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early.
He arrives precisely when he means to."
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
agian, the only reason you cant do the duels, is becase others tkae the EASY ROUTE and make a build that just kills all. It isnt skill, its knowing how to BUILD a character. No skill is needed, you can find any kind of character build anyhwere on the net and make a PvP rapist. Theres no skill to it at all, can you read instructions? Ok you can make a PvP. Can you build a guy good enough for Hell solo? Need resistances, health, good enough mana for the skills you use to not take 200 potions, dmg increasing effects. Its more work to make an accurate hell PvM with all the immunes that will run aorund, than it is to red
MAKE A PvP GAWD!
STEP ONE: THIS SKILL
STEP TWO: THAT SKILL
STEP THREE: THESE SYNERGIES
STEP FOUR: THIS OTHER SKILL, AND DO YOUR STATS THIS WAY.
I think I can I think I can! I can follow duh-duh-duh-rec-tions?
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Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending.
... we do not allow the 'hostility mode' that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend.
haha jay wilson dosent even know how diablo is now... how are we going to have this guy making the next diablo?
its just not diablo if you cant hostile anyone at anytime.... its really not that easy to just hostile and kill an entire game either.... legitly you have about 2-3 mins to gtfo.
tppk is a whole nother story
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DIABLO = DEVIL its not supposed to be a nice game autostats are rediclous lack of pots is not welcome if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
... we do not allow the 'hostility mode' that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend.
haha jay wilson dosent even know how diablo is now... how are we going to have this guy making the next diablo?
its just not diablo if you cant hostile anyone at anytime.... its really not that easy to just hostile and kill an entire game either.... legitly you have about 2-3 mins to gtfo.
tppk is a whole nother story
I agree with you 100% man....I was hoping that the simple hostility button would make it back. If someone joins your game and hostiles everyone and there that much higher in levels then you...well leave the game and make a new one its not that bloody hard....at least they should give us the option to turn the hostility feature on or off when creating a game!
... we do not allow the 'hostility mode' that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend.
haha jay wilson dosent even know how diablo is now... how are we going to have this guy making the next diablo?
its just not diablo if you cant hostile anyone at anytime.... its really not that easy to just hostile and kill an entire game either.... legitly you have about 2-3 mins to gtfo.
tppk is a whole nother story
Maybe he dont know how some people paly it, but MORE dont like it than do, and it wasnt supposed to be anyway, thats why he says anything that hinders co-op needs to be gone.
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Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending.
...well leave the game and make a new one its not that bloody hard....at least they should give us the option to turn the hostility feature on or off when creating a game!
No it isn't too difficult. But it's a nuisance that I don't want to bother with.
I agree people should have some option to allow or not allow hostility.
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"A wizard is never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early.
He arrives precisely when he means to."
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
another glitch? This says we have 4 pages and 31 comments, ut mine is now29, which would make there count 32, whats up with this?
Anyway, as stated, it is bieng fixed. There working on it, not sur ehow it will be done in the release, but wokring on it. Hostility is officially removed which menas were grief free aside from mobbing waypoints, and exoiting glitches. Not saying it wont happen, but as far as that, itss fixed when they dicide how to do it.
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Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending.
Anyway, not neccessarily. Not everyhtign you do for PvP helps in PvE except resistances and damage reducers, otherwise agian most PvP characters are a set build with most stats and skills decided form the beginning, so it isnt PvP thats doing it, its the build.
This is what is called an opinion. You're argument basically amounts to, 'you're wrong, because i said so.' If you want to convince me that I'm wrong, you need evidence. Name a D2 buff that is useful in pvp but not in pve, like resilience rating in WoW, for example.
Unless you can create a reasonable argument demonstrating where I am in error, you're wasting your time posting because I am not going to change my mind.
I stand by what I said. A great pvp character will also own at pve.
I have to say, in D2 I felt like just about anything that made me better at pvp also made me better at pve. Every character I made, I was certain to have maximum resists in hell difficulty. I also capped out and damage reduction. After that I did everything I could to hit as fast and as hard as I can. Increasing your damage and survivability against other players also means increasing your damage and survivability against monsters. All my pvp characters totally owned at pve so that it wasn't a challenge, though that was never my goal.
Other D2 buffs that are useful in pvp AND pve are plus to skills, faster cast, faster run walk, faster attack speed, defense, plus to stats, life steal, mana steal, etc etc etc etc
My bad. Its been a long time since I played D2. At any rate, there was a time when I would have said life steal is extremely useful in pvp AND pve. Thanks, Seth.
Take my word for it or don't, but in my years of experience, great pvp characters also owned at pve. I don't blame anyone else who had the top gear for wanting to pvp as an added challenge beyond pve. Killing players was always much more challenging than killing the monsters (unless you are level 90 pk attacking level 9 players, that is).
I think I've said this before, but the monsters are designed specifically for you to kill them. You are supposed to be able to kill them. The same thing can NOT be said for players
I stand by what I said. A great pvp character will also own at pve.
How long does it take to do a baal run with a pure foh'er?
You can't make enough money to keep a wwsins gear repaired if your pvm'ing.
Good luck doing anything in hell with that fire sorc.
Have fun waiting 6 hours for a plaguezon to kill baal.
How many times does your bvc insta kill himself from iron maiden in chaos runs?
Theres plenty of great pvp builds that are too slow or too annoying for pvm, and plenty of great pvm builds that suck pvp.
otherwise agian most PvP characters are a set build with most stats and skills decided form the beginning, so it isnt PvP thats doing it, its the build.
This is pretty much every character for an experienced player, whether your making a pvp'er or an mf'er.
How long does it take to do a baal run with a pure foh'er?
You can't make enough money to keep a wwsins gear repaired if your pvm'ing.
Good luck doing anything in hell with that fire sorc.
Have fun waiting 6 hours for a plaguezon to kill baal.
How many times does your bvc insta kill himself from iron maiden in chaos runs?
Those are all archetypal pvp builds I am not familiar with or would not have used. You have to realize the last time I played D2 was... before baal runs.
For example FoH was not a very popular or powerful spell last I remember. I never had any trouble keeping my gear repaired so I'm not sure how that became an issue. To recharge the usable skills on items maybe?
Would a pve fire sorc be any better than a pvp fire sorc in hell?
If by plagueazon you mean the amazons with the zillion poison charms... I never considered that build a very good pvp character. I was never a big fan of damage over time in D2.
Iron maiden is a problem... not just for pvp barbs but ALL melee classes
I think you're missing the point here a little bit. The problems you listed as problems for pvp characters are also potentially problems for pve characters as well.
My point was and is, the type of gear I chose for pvp (stuff with resists, damage reduce, plus to skills, plus to stats, faster cast/runwalk/attack speed whatever) was also among the best gea
I think you're missing the point here a little bit. The problems you listed as problems for pvp characters are also potentially problems for pve characters as well.
The point was there are a lot of builds that rock at pvp and suck at pvm.
An foh'er as an example, is a viable pvp build either as a pure foh'er, or a whole bunch of possible foh variants. However you don't see foh'ers pvming because its just not worth the time/effort. You can hit 1 guy at a time for 18k a hit, or just make a hammerdin and spam 18k hammers all over the place that hit multiple targets.
A wwsin, whirlwind assassin since you probably don't have a clue what I'm talking about, is an assassin that uses a chaos claw to be able to use whirlwind like a barb. You will never see one used as an mf'er. For the amount of time it takes them to kill things, and how expensive it is to repair a chaos claw, its just not worth it. However, a wwsin is a very powerful pvp'er with a lot of good variants of it as well. If you want to make a pvm sin a trapper is going to be far more efficient.
Sure high end gear is high end gear for the most part, but its a long stretch to say a great pvp character is going to pwn at pvm, as most pvp characters don't do any pvm'ing other then leech baal runs to level. If you had much experience at pvp'ing you'd also know there are a lot more variety of builds played then pvm, which is mainly dominated by hammerdins, light sorcs, trappers, and summoners.
Ive ben off for awhile, and seth ebats me to the first skill I think of, but im a necro man, thats most of my builds lol. He proved it, and I proved it earlier. If you can follow instructions, you can make a PvP king. PvE requires more, resistances, dmg increase, more health and mana for some skills, face it, most PvP now, were made by a guide so 1-3 of a skill automatically kills somone. Thats not skill, I can follow instructions from a website too.
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Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending.
The point was there are a lot of builds that rock at pvp and suck at pvm.
An foh'er as an example, is a viable pvp build either as a pure foh'er, or a whole bunch of possible foh variants. However you don't see foh'ers pvming because its just not worth the time/effort. You can hit 1 guy at a time for 18k a hit, or just make a hammerdin and spam 18k hammers all over the place that hit multiple targets.
A wwsin, whirlwind assassin since you probably don't have a clue what I'm talking about, is an assassin that uses a chaos claw to be able to use whirlwind like a barb. You will never see one used as an mf'er. For the amount of time it takes them to kill things, and how expensive it is to repair a chaos claw, its just not worth it. However, a wwsin is a very powerful pvp'er with a lot of good variants of it as well. If you want to make a pvm sin a trapper is going to be far more efficient.
Sure high end gear is high end gear for the most part, but its a long stretch to say a great pvp character is going to pwn at pvm, as most pvp characters don't do any pvm'ing other then leech baal runs to level. If you had much experience at pvp'ing you'd also know there are a lot more variety of builds played then pvm, which is mainly dominated by hammerdins, light sorcs, trappers, and summoners.
If that is the case, then you have to agree that the players who make those builds have no trouble with pve.
The pvp characters I mostly remember are pretty typical. WW barb (what was the rare lance everybody used, spire of something?) Amazon shooting off guided arrows (doom loom!). If I remember, guided arrow was required in order to get multi shot, which was the ultimate amazon pve ability. You might not think this ability is any good any more, but sorceresses used to pvp with frozen orb, which I also thought was the best pve ability.
After synergies, there were a few changes. I made a trap assassin, and I've probably killed more players with that character than any other character I've ever made. Did they get nerfed or something? I shut down a lot of duel games and otherwise with that character between traps and firebombs. The enigma didn't hurt, either. I even went into an 'uber diablo' game because I wanted to get annihilus, hostiled all seven other players and killed them at the same time I took on uber diablo just so I was the only one who had a chance to grab the charm. Another character that was popular around the same time I think was the druid with, what is it, hurricane up and enigma? I had a fire sorc, a lightning sorc, and even the old archetypal frozen orb / thunderstorm combo which was still okay after synergies. Of course since they added permanent hirelings I usually just gave my hireling a windforce and that helm with slow on it. Put up a high level thunderstorm and I killed a lot of players just by teleporting around them. When they added breath of the dying, I made a level 99 barb named forrest gump with a botd made out of an ethereal colossus sword. You wouldn't believe how many people told me I spelled 'forest' wrong... (for those of you who are too young, forrest gump is a movie, and forrest as a name usually has 2 r's) At any rate, having a teleporting barb was just hilarious and too funny to pass up, even though I hated barbs. On that note, I also made a hammerdin at one point to pvp barbs. At the time, barbs hated hammerdins, and I hated barbs so it worked out really nicely.
I also made some necros and zons in there. I honestly can't remember them all. Some were better than others at pvp, yeah, but they all rocked hard enough at pve so that it was never a challenge for me.
Come to think of it I did make an assassin with two 'chaos' claws offline last year, but I used a D2 editor so I might have made the claws indestructible, and probably ethereal for good measure. I didn't realize they were called wwsins, or that they cost so much to repair, of course, sorry.
At any rate, I feel like I've played a fair number of pvp characters that essentially also rocked at pve. I do really appreciate the FOH example though. Thats interesting. The only thing I remember about FOH paladins is that I saw one once on my zon, I shot him a couple of times, and then he died. At first I didn't even realize what spell he kept casting so I had to look it up. Although I'd personally still probly go for the hammerdin, its interesting to know that people use FoH in pvp for real now. Thanks!
Ive ben off for awhile, and seth ebats me to the first skill I think of, but im a necro man, thats most of my builds lol. He proved it, and I proved it earlier. If you can follow instructions, you can make a PvP king. PvE requires more, resistances, dmg increase, more health and mana for some skills, face it, most PvP now, were made by a guide so 1-3 of a skill automatically kills somone. Thats not skill, I can follow instructions from a website too.
Actually, I was asking for a buff that works in pvp but NOT in pve. As Seth pointed out, life steal works in pve and NOT pvp, so it falls in the category with abilities like magic find, gold find, and plus to experience gained... A pvp character that happens to have life steal will be that much more effective in pve since life steal is such a useful ability. Same thing goes for magic find, if you happen to think its useful for pve purposes.
You're saying PvE requires more resistances, damage, health, mana and skill than pvp? Have you ever played pvp? The monsters are designed by blizzard specifically for you to kill them, and they have pretty basic AI. A good pvp character has been designed specifically to kill YOU, and its controlled by another player. Resistances, damage, health, and mana are needed both for pvp and pve... You haven't really proven anything or provided any evidence of anything in particular.
You CAN follow a guide to build a pvp character, but nothing can teach how to react to the variety of situations that present themselves in pvp. There is no 3 step plan to handle every situation in pvp. Players are much less predictable than monsters, especially if you've played through the game a few times. Pvp is definitely more of a challenge, if you deny that, then I suggest you try it.
Which all of those are non-essential, and arent actually skills so are still not neccessary. Agreed wasting such skills when not really needed can degenerate on what you really need unless you get it from big-set bonuses(sets and runewords).
And the point is, any PvP that is built to do PvP can pull damage to handle PvM like nothing, so it isnt skill, its built. PvM requires a completly build with emphasis on other aspects if you want a true PvM and not PvE. There is diff between Pve and PvM its the PvM that require more skill cuz your building them to be master of one task, not guide-built tank of everything. True a tank of everything is probably stronger than a true PvM, bu were talking skill to create one, and the truth is, the guides are there to build PvP and reading directions isnt a skill
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1: People who want to duel, or who mutually agree to fight eachother.
2: Pkers, people who try to kill someone, who isn't trying to kill them.
I'd rather not worry about #2.
Can't they just have a check box on the game creation screen that toggles PvP on/off?
I understand the point the OP is making, but really Blizzard cannot appease everyone. I think it will come down to what they (Blizzard) think the majority of people will be happy with. If I did still have to worry about people hunting me down and Pking me in HC I'd get over it and deal with it. But Blizz has positioned themselves to not add anything that hurts or hinders cooperativeness...
I do like the idea of being able to choose what type of character you are. PvP or standard, and those players being able to play together. I think that type of system would work well.
I'm interested in seeing their solution to this matter.
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
MAKE A PvP GAWD!
STEP ONE: THIS SKILL
STEP TWO: THAT SKILL
STEP THREE: THESE SYNERGIES
STEP FOUR: THIS OTHER SKILL, AND DO YOUR STATS THIS WAY.
I think I can I think I can! I can follow duh-duh-duh-rec-tions?
haha jay wilson dosent even know how diablo is now... how are we going to have this guy making the next diablo?
its just not diablo if you cant hostile anyone at anytime.... its really not that easy to just hostile and kill an entire game either.... legitly you have about 2-3 mins to gtfo.
tppk is a whole nother story
its not supposed to be a nice game
autostats are rediclous
lack of pots is not welcome
if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
I agree with you 100% man....I was hoping that the simple hostility button would make it back. If someone joins your game and hostiles everyone and there that much higher in levels then you...well leave the game and make a new one its not that bloody hard....at least they should give us the option to turn the hostility feature on or off when creating a game!
Maybe he dont know how some people paly it, but MORE dont like it than do, and it wasnt supposed to be anyway, thats why he says anything that hinders co-op needs to be gone.
No it isn't too difficult. But it's a nuisance that I don't want to bother with.
I agree people should have some option to allow or not allow hostility.
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
Anyway, as stated, it is bieng fixed. There working on it, not sur ehow it will be done in the release, but wokring on it. Hostility is officially removed which menas were grief free aside from mobbing waypoints, and exoiting glitches. Not saying it wont happen, but as far as that, itss fixed when they dicide how to do it.
its not supposed to be a nice game
autostats are rediclous
lack of pots is not welcome
if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
oh pwn!
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
This is what is called an opinion. You're argument basically amounts to, 'you're wrong, because i said so.' If you want to convince me that I'm wrong, you need evidence. Name a D2 buff that is useful in pvp but not in pve, like resilience rating in WoW, for example.
Unless you can create a reasonable argument demonstrating where I am in error, you're wasting your time posting because I am not going to change my mind.
I stand by what I said. A great pvp character will also own at pve.
Other D2 buffs that are useful in pvp AND pve are plus to skills, faster cast, faster run walk, faster attack speed, defense, plus to stats, life steal, mana steal, etc etc etc etc
My bad. Its been a long time since I played D2. At any rate, there was a time when I would have said life steal is extremely useful in pvp AND pve. Thanks, Seth.
Take my word for it or don't, but in my years of experience, great pvp characters also owned at pve. I don't blame anyone else who had the top gear for wanting to pvp as an added challenge beyond pve. Killing players was always much more challenging than killing the monsters (unless you are level 90 pk attacking level 9 players, that is).
I think I've said this before, but the monsters are designed specifically for you to kill them. You are supposed to be able to kill them. The same thing can NOT be said for players
How long does it take to do a baal run with a pure foh'er?
You can't make enough money to keep a wwsins gear repaired if your pvm'ing.
Good luck doing anything in hell with that fire sorc.
Have fun waiting 6 hours for a plaguezon to kill baal.
How many times does your bvc insta kill himself from iron maiden in chaos runs?
Theres plenty of great pvp builds that are too slow or too annoying for pvm, and plenty of great pvm builds that suck pvp.
This is pretty much every character for an experienced player, whether your making a pvp'er or an mf'er.
Those are all archetypal pvp builds I am not familiar with or would not have used. You have to realize the last time I played D2 was... before baal runs.
For example FoH was not a very popular or powerful spell last I remember. I never had any trouble keeping my gear repaired so I'm not sure how that became an issue. To recharge the usable skills on items maybe?
Would a pve fire sorc be any better than a pvp fire sorc in hell?
If by plagueazon you mean the amazons with the zillion poison charms... I never considered that build a very good pvp character. I was never a big fan of damage over time in D2.
Iron maiden is a problem... not just for pvp barbs but ALL melee classes
I think you're missing the point here a little bit. The problems you listed as problems for pvp characters are also potentially problems for pve characters as well.
My point was and is, the type of gear I chose for pvp (stuff with resists, damage reduce, plus to skills, plus to stats, faster cast/runwalk/attack speed whatever) was also among the best gea
The point was there are a lot of builds that rock at pvp and suck at pvm.
An foh'er as an example, is a viable pvp build either as a pure foh'er, or a whole bunch of possible foh variants. However you don't see foh'ers pvming because its just not worth the time/effort. You can hit 1 guy at a time for 18k a hit, or just make a hammerdin and spam 18k hammers all over the place that hit multiple targets.
A wwsin, whirlwind assassin since you probably don't have a clue what I'm talking about, is an assassin that uses a chaos claw to be able to use whirlwind like a barb. You will never see one used as an mf'er. For the amount of time it takes them to kill things, and how expensive it is to repair a chaos claw, its just not worth it. However, a wwsin is a very powerful pvp'er with a lot of good variants of it as well. If you want to make a pvm sin a trapper is going to be far more efficient.
Sure high end gear is high end gear for the most part, but its a long stretch to say a great pvp character is going to pwn at pvm, as most pvp characters don't do any pvm'ing other then leech baal runs to level. If you had much experience at pvp'ing you'd also know there are a lot more variety of builds played then pvm, which is mainly dominated by hammerdins, light sorcs, trappers, and summoners.
If that is the case, then you have to agree that the players who make those builds have no trouble with pve.
The pvp characters I mostly remember are pretty typical. WW barb (what was the rare lance everybody used, spire of something?) Amazon shooting off guided arrows (doom loom!). If I remember, guided arrow was required in order to get multi shot, which was the ultimate amazon pve ability. You might not think this ability is any good any more, but sorceresses used to pvp with frozen orb, which I also thought was the best pve ability.
After synergies, there were a few changes. I made a trap assassin, and I've probably killed more players with that character than any other character I've ever made. Did they get nerfed or something? I shut down a lot of duel games and otherwise with that character between traps and firebombs. The enigma didn't hurt, either. I even went into an 'uber diablo' game because I wanted to get annihilus, hostiled all seven other players and killed them at the same time I took on uber diablo just so I was the only one who had a chance to grab the charm. Another character that was popular around the same time I think was the druid with, what is it, hurricane up and enigma? I had a fire sorc, a lightning sorc, and even the old archetypal frozen orb / thunderstorm combo which was still okay after synergies. Of course since they added permanent hirelings I usually just gave my hireling a windforce and that helm with slow on it. Put up a high level thunderstorm and I killed a lot of players just by teleporting around them. When they added breath of the dying, I made a level 99 barb named forrest gump with a botd made out of an ethereal colossus sword. You wouldn't believe how many people told me I spelled 'forest' wrong... (for those of you who are too young, forrest gump is a movie, and forrest as a name usually has 2 r's) At any rate, having a teleporting barb was just hilarious and too funny to pass up, even though I hated barbs. On that note, I also made a hammerdin at one point to pvp barbs. At the time, barbs hated hammerdins, and I hated barbs so it worked out really nicely.
I also made some necros and zons in there. I honestly can't remember them all. Some were better than others at pvp, yeah, but they all rocked hard enough at pve so that it was never a challenge for me.
Come to think of it I did make an assassin with two 'chaos' claws offline last year, but I used a D2 editor so I might have made the claws indestructible, and probably ethereal for good measure. I didn't realize they were called wwsins, or that they cost so much to repair, of course, sorry.
At any rate, I feel like I've played a fair number of pvp characters that essentially also rocked at pve. I do really appreciate the FOH example though. Thats interesting. The only thing I remember about FOH paladins is that I saw one once on my zon, I shot him a couple of times, and then he died. At first I didn't even realize what spell he kept casting so I had to look it up. Although I'd personally still probly go for the hammerdin, its interesting to know that people use FoH in pvp for real now. Thanks!
Actually, I was asking for a buff that works in pvp but NOT in pve. As Seth pointed out, life steal works in pve and NOT pvp, so it falls in the category with abilities like magic find, gold find, and plus to experience gained... A pvp character that happens to have life steal will be that much more effective in pve since life steal is such a useful ability. Same thing goes for magic find, if you happen to think its useful for pve purposes.
You're saying PvE requires more resistances, damage, health, mana and skill than pvp? Have you ever played pvp? The monsters are designed by blizzard specifically for you to kill them, and they have pretty basic AI. A good pvp character has been designed specifically to kill YOU, and its controlled by another player. Resistances, damage, health, and mana are needed both for pvp and pve... You haven't really proven anything or provided any evidence of anything in particular.
You CAN follow a guide to build a pvp character, but nothing can teach how to react to the variety of situations that present themselves in pvp. There is no 3 step plan to handle every situation in pvp. Players are much less predictable than monsters, especially if you've played through the game a few times. Pvp is definitely more of a challenge, if you deny that, then I suggest you try it.
And the point is, any PvP that is built to do PvP can pull damage to handle PvM like nothing, so it isnt skill, its built. PvM requires a completly build with emphasis on other aspects if you want a true PvM and not PvE. There is diff between Pve and PvM its the PvM that require more skill cuz your building them to be master of one task, not guide-built tank of everything. True a tank of everything is probably stronger than a true PvM, bu were talking skill to create one, and the truth is, the guides are there to build PvP and reading directions isnt a skill