...Diablo, as far as villains go, isn't really that bad ass of a villain.
I mean, comparatively speaking when it comes to great villains in stories and media through history.
The game is named after him, and we are on the 3rd game now, and really, what do we know about Diablo and his aspirations? He wants to help the baddies defeat the goodies and take over the world. Done. That's it.
Or is there a lot more to this mystical demon and I'm missing it?
In D2 Diablo is kinda dormant while his brothers are spinning the gears. And in one he is...manipulating the mind of a king and plotting to do something naughty in a dungeon.
So many people talk about this game in terms of action, classes, loot, but never are they ever talking about the character its based around. Never are they saying " Damn, Diablo is one evil bitch and hard as hell to kill and could you believe that evil shit he did in Act 2? Damnnnnn!"
What is so special about Diablo - the character? Tell me what I'm missing as I'm not that much of a lore buff.
The game is named after him, and we are on the 3rd game now, and really, what do we know about Diablo and his aspirations? He wants to help the baddies defeat the goodies and take over the world. Done. That's it.
The aspiration of all agents of Hell is to control the fate of creation. And the Burning Hells merely perceive creation as something that should be purely chaotic whereas the High Heavens believe order to be the best form of creation. The way any of us might perceive chaos definitely can be likened to all things evil. Sanctuary is an important part of the Great Conflict. Part of the reason I've always thought so is because Sanctuary is something of a wild variable. It seems important for the Burning Hells and now even the High Heavens (who previously believed in ignoring the mortal realm) that it is indeed important to have control of and that mortals are not as predestined as immortals. So in the timeless struggle between heaven and hell where stalemate always seems to be the result, the mortal realm of Sanctuary could be what ultimately wins the Great Conflict for either side.
Or is there a lot more to this mystical demon and I'm missing it?
Well, Diablo is the essence of terror and the personification of it when he takes form. May seem rather one dimensional as characters go, but I don't think just because he's the lord of terror that he's always just thinking of ways to scare people or create illusions of fear. I think he may be a very nuanced demon in fact. But I also think as a character, his motives and characterizations are difficult to express as he is ostensibly an agent of chaos, something that mortals would have difficulty in understanding. So I also never thought he was necessarily evil, but only perceivably evil.
In D2 Diablo is kinda dormant while his brothers are spinning the gears. And in one he is...manipulating the mind of a king and plotting to do something naughty in a dungeon.
Yes, you are mistaken here in fact. Diablo is the one doing all the work trying to free his brothers. And he's in possession of the Warrior who defeated him in the first game. Not the king. Baal couldn't do a lot of scheming while he was imprisoned cause his mind was in a constant state of battle with Tal Rasha. Mephisto was actually doing more such as corrupting the Zakarum and taking over Kurast but he couldn't do much without the unity of him and his brothers which Diablo eventually made possible.
What is so special about Diablo - the character? Tell me what I'm missing as I'm not that much of a lore buff.
Even just reading the D1 manual will provide you some interesting insights into Diablo's character. Such as the section that describes each of the monsters and which Prime Evil they serve and why.
Ok, thanks for all that sweet lore and explanation, but even after all that typing I still get the feeling like Diablo is a bad guy and that's it. A flat character who isn't explored all that much though we're on our 3rd game in the franchise and he's the biggest baddie at the end of each game. He almost becomes the Saturday morning carttoon villain who cooks up a scheme and gets beaten in the end only to cook up another scheme for next time.
But his character. His motivations. His thoughts. His power. It isn't explored all that much. Perhaps with 3 they will have the chance to show us more and surprise us. As far as demons go though he's just a fairly large big red demon. Almost the same thing you've been killing the entire game. Seems like they will have to toss in some more characterization for him in 3 and maybe some plot twists to raise the stakes and the threat Diablo poses. I mean, they were able to make an expansion around his brother so he's actually just one of a group of evils in the end - what makes him an especially potent evil over the others? Or is it debatable?
With so much room in the story to make him grow as a character I just can't wait for 3 any longer.
I think at a glance he's what you describe him to be. His character has been explored a lot more in the novels at least which is canon with the games.
Other insights into his character may only be implied, but they are indeed there. I think just the execution of his plan in D1 says a lot to his character. He attempted to possess King Leoric and failed. Upon failing this he took advantage of the king's weak-willed son. He had to acknowledge how weak he was and maybe it was even a blow to his pride that he had to fall back on a kid in order to fulfill his plan.
You should also give him credit for never doing the evil villain laugh. At least...I'm pretty sure I've never heard Diablo go, "Mua hahahahahaaaaa!"
As for seniority or hierarchy, well, Diablo is actually the youngest of the Prime Evils, Mephisto being the eldest. I'm not sure one is necessarily more powerful over the other. It may depend on what each one is doing. And though each Prime Evil is the essence of his namesake, they are also, arguably, just really powerful demons. So they are not definitive rulers of Hell as Azmodan (or even Kabraxis) would insist. The Prime Evils, did, however, have the advantage of being totally united where other demons constantly fight each other for control and this may also speak further to their characterizations-they are willing to share power in order to consolidate it.
Other demons have shown to be more selfish and thus have failed in their coup attempts. Even when the Lesser Evils temporarily overthrew the Prime Evils, they could not remain united and their coup fell apart. So, in some ways I get what you're saying. It is hard at times to see Diablo as anything other than just a big red scary devil who wants to take over the world. But you gotta realize that there is so much more going on here.
Remember for example the scene in D2 when Marius is having the nightmare of Tal Rasha/Baal inside the prison. Marius wakes up and the Wanderer explains how this is his brother. And he kind of speaks about him with a certain reverence and compassion as he knows he is trapped in the tombs and suffering. But others who watch that scene may not really read that much into it like I did. I don't know.
Right. It's there, it just hasn't really been explored yet. Merely grazed upon, which is okay of course (and I'm sure the books go further into the character). It's just that when I beat Diablo in D3 I want to feel like I've really accomplished slaying an indescribable evil. That I've defeated evil beyond evil. Not just a red, horned, demon who laughs when I enter the room.
Usually the best villains in movies don't think they're evil. Could this be the case for Diablo? Is his perspective that he is merely doing what is right and good by his culture?
It's interesting isn't it that Diablo is the game title and he's not the great super demon in the mythos of Sanctuary. I guess that's a good thing if you want to make sequels. If he were the head super beast beating him each game would feel like anti-climactic repetition.
But don't you think in the world of story villains that Diablo is kind of...lackluster? He never springs to mind as any kind of great villain to me when I do a line up of them. He's more of a guy we kill in order to beat a game and get phat loots kinda monster (which could very well change in D3). You know what I mean? He doesn't ever make me go: "Oh damn that Diablo! Look at what he did to this village!" Instead he's just kind of,...there. In the background somewhere, waiting to be killed by me. He's not plucking off baby heads or deflowering virgins or eating angel stew or spreading a plague or anything really. He's just...there.
And ever notice how no one ever talks about Diablo as a villain? He's just a trophy at the end of a game. He's not a constant impediment for the hero like villains in classic tales are. And there in lies my answer: He isn't a consistent obstacle for the main character - passively he is, but actively - not so much. That's why he feels so background to me and not as badass as he should to me. D2 still worked as a cool story because we hunted a still developing Diablo who gave us obstacles to overcome. But still...somehow...he feels so far away and background.
Other games use this principle and it works. It's not a big deal, but it does make a difference when your game is named after that villainous character for me. It makes me expect way more out of the villain.
Usually the best villains in movies don't think they're evil. Could this be the case for Diablo? Is his perspective that he is merely doing what is right and good by his culture?
If you're asking whether he's got some diagnosable conduct disorder, I really couldn't say.
It's interesting isn't it that Diablo is the game title and he's not the great super demon in the mythos of Sanctuary. I guess that's a good thing if you want to make sequels. If he were the head super beast beating him each game would feel like anti-climactic repetition.
Remember that the Sin War was a covert operation on both sides. Heaven and Hell were fighting in secret, almost through the proxy of mortals against one another. Many people in Sanctuary are actually completely unaware of Diablo's very existence even though they have seen some pretty crazy things in their world such as demons and the undead. Others are aware of Diablo only as a myth. I think for me this is the entire appeal of Diablo 1. It feels like an isolated incident with some unnerving implications. Cause to some, it may have just seemed like you slayed a big monster down below, but to those who really know what's going on, what you just did was buy some time to an event that would change the world forever.
But don't you think in the world of story villains that Diablo is kind of...lackluster? He never springs to mind as any kind of great villain to me when I do a line up of them. He's more of a guy we kill in order to beat a game and get phat loots kinda monster (which could very well change in D3). You know what I mean? He doesn't ever make me go: "Oh damn that Diablo! Look at what he did to this village!" Instead he's just kind of,...there. In the background somewhere, waiting to be killed by me. He's not plucking off baby heads or deflowering virgins or eating angel stew or spreading a plague or anything really. He's just...there.
Most Diablo fans love the game most for its loot grinding aspect. So yeah to a lot of people him, and especially Baal are there for drops and getting experience. That's not Diablo or Baal's fault.
And ever notice how no one ever talks about Diablo as a villain? He's just a trophy at the end of a game. He's not a constant impediment for the hero like villains in classic tales are. And there in lies my answer: He isn't a consistent obstacle for the main character - passively he is, but actively - not so much. That's why he feels so background to me and not as badass as he should to me. D2 still worked as a cool story because we hunted a still developing Diablo who gave us obstacles to overcome. But still...somehow...he feels so far away and background.
Like I stated though, these demons tend to work a lot through proxy. This is why Lazarus is such an awesome villain. You do in fact know his story more than Diablo's. But Diablo is there pulling all the strings. And yeah, Diablo just seems to do what is in his nature. You take his actions less personal. But with Lazarus, fuck that guy! And the way Lazarus taunts you....ooh it gets so personal with him and I love it for that.
This is exactly why I've always said Nihlathak was my favorite boss fight. Nihl was a mortal, like you. He was a betrayer. Not some demon who was evil from the beginning. So he was riddled with guilt and totally compromised and he was weak and Baal recognized all of this so he manipulated him and coerced him. And all the while Nihl sees you as someone trying to help. Part of his reaction is that he feels all his hopeless so he laughs at you thinking you can do anything to help. But also because Nihl feels it is him who must help and redeem himself, not some stranger that just wanders into town. So he tried to hinder your progress, and he mocks you and taunts you. And by the time you finally pursue him to the depths of his filthy lair (which is also one of my favorite levels), he's still there just throwing insults at you and fucking exploding corpses at you. So when you kill him it is wayyy satisfying. Not at all like when you kill Baal.
All this is even why I just wish we could fight more humans in D3. Just people who are evil, or they are bandits or thugs or murderers. Cause there's something more personal about those kinds of confrontations. Just like when I get to Kurast and there are all those Zakuramites. They are my favorite things to kill in Act 3 because they were mortals like me but they were too weak to resist corruption and it feels so righteous and vindictive to slay them.
Other games use this principle and it works. It's not a big deal, but it does make a difference when your game is named after that villainous character for me. It makes me expect way more out of the villain.
I don't know, have you played the first game? Diablo hardly feels like a faceless demon to me in that game. And in D2 he's just about as interesting as his story is told through the Wanderer. It's interesting cause you're constantly wondering what the relationship is between Diablo and the Wanderer. Cause on one hand, you know, you're walking around in the body of the guy that killed you. And while the Warrior was arrogant to think he could contain Diablo (well, I don't think he really did it out of arrogance as much as just a sense of duty), you know all along there must be something of the Warrior's humanity in there somewhere and it exists in part with Diablo's soul as well. So it's all kind of interesting to me anyway.
Diablo is an entity, not an person. Ambiguity is a very human trait imo. It's just natural that a demigodly being is someone completlely uni-dimensional. Human "failures" in creatures that should completlely surpass human existance is something really lame. It's not fair to compare diablo with Vader 'cause Vader is a humanlike alien while Diablo is close to an god.
It's like missing an complex psique in an monster like the Cthulhu or Sauron (in the Lord of the Ring series! Silma excluded)... The great thing about those guys is that you can't understand their motivations because they are WAY above you, just the way people can't understand the motivation behind the christian God (or any God of any real life religion). Thats part of creating a "overbeign" character.
Maybe the D3 is missing an human character to take the whole of the human nemesis, because most people really like to understand villains and reject vilains that should not be undertood (your case rejecting Diablo). At some points Diablo had villains such as those like Lazarus in DI and the high priest Malic in the Birthright book. I think in D3 Azmodan and Belial oddly have more human traits, so you might like then...
I agree with you, Creepsville. He's the Silent Antagonist, just like Master Chief or your Diablo character might be the Silent Protagonist. He's more of an event than anything else. To date, his most layered depiction was in Diablo II as he struggled with the Warrior's spirit and will for control of the body. A lot of what the Dark Wanderer does are half-Diablo, half-Warrior.
(And yes, the Warrior has a name, revealed in DIII.)
We get more of a glimpse of his brothers, Mephisto and Baal. The former is totally into the whole evil, dominate-the-world thing, while Baal obviously takes delight in wreaking havoc on a much more personal level. In this way, Baal and Mephisto are at opposite ends.
Diablo... well, we never get a sense for where Diablo fits in. The Book of Cain suggests he's much more personal, like Baal, as he "views himself as an artist of terror," but so far we don't really see any indication of that in the games. He's just kinda... there.
You are right that the brothers are much more well known than Diablo himself. Which might be part of the point of the game. Nothing that happens in Sanctuary would have been possible without Diablo. Like I said, he is more of an event than an individual. Which is where his appeal comes from.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
While i was reading the books, the 3 Prime evils didn't seem like the most threatening. They were definitely dangerous, and I had the feeling that if something wasn't done they could potentially cause great damage. But it never felt like any of them were a pressing danger. Although when Diablo actually stepped in to fight i was like 'awww damn, shit's about to get real now'.
But other then that moment, it always seemed as if the Heavens were the real pressing danger. They were the ones I felt like the real 'bad guys'. They were the one's were i was always like shit, shit, what are they doing to do? kind of feeling, whereas the Prime's were just kind of speed bumps on the way there. I knew they had the potential to fuck shit up, but they weren't ever moving forward fast enough for it to be a true concern.
Granted, this was all part of their scheming plan, and now shit has the potential to hit the fan. I'm hoping that this is where Diablo steps in and goes 'it's my turn, who want's to play a game?'
He is responsible of the killing of Leoric's son, an innocent boy, his wife, and many other innocent people from Tristram. He also killed us in D1 (our hero, that some of us came to love).
So, D2 starts with him killing almost everyone we knew and loved from the first game, and Deckard Cain almost died too (he should have). It amazes me that Baal and him didn't kill Tyrael when they could. He is the mastermind behind all the events in Diablo 2, he set his brothers free.
He had a freaking thorns minion right before you arrived at his lair to kill him, and my first character - a Zealot Paladin - got murdered countless times on those stupid minions.
Yeah, I feel a lot of hatred towards mister D, and to me he's the big villain and the responsible for everything bad happening at Sanctuary.
Yeah, so to some he's a great villain, to others he's just there.
To be honest it seems like there's a lot of rationalization for why he's so evil when to me that should be obvious from the start. The best version of him creeping me out as a villain which someone pointed out is that he invades your character at the end of Diablo 1. I remember when I first saw that cutscene and it did send a shiver down my spine. So that is a good villainous trait. And in 2 watching him slowly envelop our warrior from the first game was eerie, but still these things are still passive threats. Diablo is always trying to mettle with things, as demons do. His threat seems to be more about "What COULD happen..." vs. "Diablo just burnt down half the planet." (Except I get the feeling in D3 we may come to see him pull off something like that.)
To be honest it seems like there's a lot of rationalization for why he's so evil when to me that should be obvious from the start.
Should it though? I understand your point, and from a perspective of how gripping his character is, I can agree with you. But I kind of side with italofoca as well: Diablo is an otherworldly and immortal being from the dawn of time who's very being is terror. It's just hard to see how to personify that into a more humanlike character, which is probably needed if you want a villain on the level of Darth Vader.Which is why we see most of him when he acts through his proxies Lazarus, Leoric and Aidan.
And ignoring all that stuff and just looking at him as a variable in a cosmology, I'm not entirely sure he should be described evil. As Siaynoq mentioned in his first post, he's more a being of chaos than evil.
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Right. He's an embodiment of Terror. So he's allowed to be a flat character in many ways, and to develop him more as a character might hurt the story more than help if they did it wrong. But even gods through out mythology that embodied things like war, thunder, etc. all have stories in which very relatable human traits are present. Zeus liked to come to earth and mate with our women and make kids all over the place. Things like that. He had very human traits/flaws.
And let's remember Baal from the D2 expansion. Baal led an army and seemed to have very human traits. He had more going on than Diablo at least. And remember, that Diablo is a known as a PRIME EVIL for a reason. He's evil.
**Edit: Did some more Diablo research. He's apparently the strongest brother and drives those that work for him through sheer terror, which are some damn good villain traits.
But even gods through out mythology that embodied things like war, thunder, etc. all have stories in which very relatable human traits are present. Zeus liked to come to earth and mate with our women and make kids all over the place.
But let's also not forget that most of those stories are pretty damn weird because of it, and that those gods are much more akin to humans than Diablo is.
And remember, that Diablo is a known as a PRIME EVIL for a reason. He's evil.
Semantics aside, I do not question that he is evil, merely that it doesn't necessarily make to describe him as such. But it was more of a useless remark than an actual contribution to the discussion.
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While i was reading the books, the 3 Prime evils didn't seem like the most threatening. They were definitely dangerous, and I had the feeling that if something wasn't done they could potentially cause great damage. But it never felt like any of them were a pressing danger. Although when Diablo actually stepped in to fight i was like 'awww damn, shit's about to get real now'.
But other then that moment, it always seemed as if the Heavens were the real pressing danger. They were the ones I felt like the real 'bad guys'. They were the one's were i was always like shit, shit, what are they doing to do? kind of feeling, whereas the Prime's were just kind of speed bumps on the way there. I knew they had the potential to fuck shit up, but they weren't ever moving forward fast enough for it to be a true concern.
The impression that I got was that the High Heavens were willing to destroy Sanctuary somehow if they really needed to. But the Burning Hells saw Sanctuary more as something to be consumed, used up, harvested, etc.
Like, the High Heavens had largely an indifference toward Sanctuary which could prove in the end to be just as harmful to mortals because they'd all be willing to just destroy the mortal realm on a whim. But doing that could actually be harder than a mere whim as well.
Well, granted, he's not GLaDOS. He's not going to sing you a quirky little song after you send his big red ass back to Hell...again.
However, along with his brothers, he represents all that is dark in the universe. I think The Book of Cain even mentions the way they feed upon one another...Terror begets Hatred, Hatred begets Destruction...which begets Terror once more. And when you consider that these three things are best achieved with the help of human hands...well, suddenly Diablo lives up to his title, at least in my eyes.
I mean, comparatively speaking when it comes to great villains in stories and media through history.
The game is named after him, and we are on the 3rd game now, and really, what do we know about Diablo and his aspirations? He wants to help the baddies defeat the goodies and take over the world. Done. That's it.
Or is there a lot more to this mystical demon and I'm missing it?
In D2 Diablo is kinda dormant while his brothers are spinning the gears. And in one he is...manipulating the mind of a king and plotting to do something naughty in a dungeon.
So many people talk about this game in terms of action, classes, loot, but never are they ever talking about the character its based around. Never are they saying " Damn, Diablo is one evil bitch and hard as hell to kill and could you believe that evil shit he did in Act 2? Damnnnnn!"
What is so special about Diablo - the character? Tell me what I'm missing as I'm not that much of a lore buff.
Well, Diablo is the essence of terror and the personification of it when he takes form. May seem rather one dimensional as characters go, but I don't think just because he's the lord of terror that he's always just thinking of ways to scare people or create illusions of fear. I think he may be a very nuanced demon in fact. But I also think as a character, his motives and characterizations are difficult to express as he is ostensibly an agent of chaos, something that mortals would have difficulty in understanding. So I also never thought he was necessarily evil, but only perceivably evil.
Yes, you are mistaken here in fact. Diablo is the one doing all the work trying to free his brothers. And he's in possession of the Warrior who defeated him in the first game. Not the king. Baal couldn't do a lot of scheming while he was imprisoned cause his mind was in a constant state of battle with Tal Rasha. Mephisto was actually doing more such as corrupting the Zakarum and taking over Kurast but he couldn't do much without the unity of him and his brothers which Diablo eventually made possible.
Even just reading the D1 manual will provide you some interesting insights into Diablo's character. Such as the section that describes each of the monsters and which Prime Evil they serve and why.
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But his character. His motivations. His thoughts. His power. It isn't explored all that much. Perhaps with 3 they will have the chance to show us more and surprise us. As far as demons go though he's just a fairly large big red demon. Almost the same thing you've been killing the entire game. Seems like they will have to toss in some more characterization for him in 3 and maybe some plot twists to raise the stakes and the threat Diablo poses. I mean, they were able to make an expansion around his brother so he's actually just one of a group of evils in the end - what makes him an especially potent evil over the others? Or is it debatable?
With so much room in the story to make him grow as a character I just can't wait for 3 any longer.
Other insights into his character may only be implied, but they are indeed there. I think just the execution of his plan in D1 says a lot to his character. He attempted to possess King Leoric and failed. Upon failing this he took advantage of the king's weak-willed son. He had to acknowledge how weak he was and maybe it was even a blow to his pride that he had to fall back on a kid in order to fulfill his plan.
You should also give him credit for never doing the evil villain laugh. At least...I'm pretty sure I've never heard Diablo go, "Mua hahahahahaaaaa!"
As for seniority or hierarchy, well, Diablo is actually the youngest of the Prime Evils, Mephisto being the eldest. I'm not sure one is necessarily more powerful over the other. It may depend on what each one is doing. And though each Prime Evil is the essence of his namesake, they are also, arguably, just really powerful demons. So they are not definitive rulers of Hell as Azmodan (or even Kabraxis) would insist. The Prime Evils, did, however, have the advantage of being totally united where other demons constantly fight each other for control and this may also speak further to their characterizations-they are willing to share power in order to consolidate it.
Other demons have shown to be more selfish and thus have failed in their coup attempts. Even when the Lesser Evils temporarily overthrew the Prime Evils, they could not remain united and their coup fell apart. So, in some ways I get what you're saying. It is hard at times to see Diablo as anything other than just a big red scary devil who wants to take over the world. But you gotta realize that there is so much more going on here.
Remember for example the scene in D2 when Marius is having the nightmare of Tal Rasha/Baal inside the prison. Marius wakes up and the Wanderer explains how this is his brother. And he kind of speaks about him with a certain reverence and compassion as he knows he is trapped in the tombs and suffering. But others who watch that scene may not really read that much into it like I did. I don't know.
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Usually the best villains in movies don't think they're evil. Could this be the case for Diablo? Is his perspective that he is merely doing what is right and good by his culture?
It's interesting isn't it that Diablo is the game title and he's not the great super demon in the mythos of Sanctuary. I guess that's a good thing if you want to make sequels. If he were the head super beast beating him each game would feel like anti-climactic repetition.
But don't you think in the world of story villains that Diablo is kind of...lackluster? He never springs to mind as any kind of great villain to me when I do a line up of them. He's more of a guy we kill in order to beat a game and get phat loots kinda monster (which could very well change in D3). You know what I mean? He doesn't ever make me go: "Oh damn that Diablo! Look at what he did to this village!" Instead he's just kind of,...there. In the background somewhere, waiting to be killed by me. He's not plucking off baby heads or deflowering virgins or eating angel stew or spreading a plague or anything really. He's just...there.
And ever notice how no one ever talks about Diablo as a villain? He's just a trophy at the end of a game. He's not a constant impediment for the hero like villains in classic tales are. And there in lies my answer: He isn't a consistent obstacle for the main character - passively he is, but actively - not so much. That's why he feels so background to me and not as badass as he should to me. D2 still worked as a cool story because we hunted a still developing Diablo who gave us obstacles to overcome. But still...somehow...he feels so far away and background.
Other games use this principle and it works. It's not a big deal, but it does make a difference when your game is named after that villainous character for me. It makes me expect way more out of the villain.
Remember that the Sin War was a covert operation on both sides. Heaven and Hell were fighting in secret, almost through the proxy of mortals against one another. Many people in Sanctuary are actually completely unaware of Diablo's very existence even though they have seen some pretty crazy things in their world such as demons and the undead. Others are aware of Diablo only as a myth. I think for me this is the entire appeal of Diablo 1. It feels like an isolated incident with some unnerving implications. Cause to some, it may have just seemed like you slayed a big monster down below, but to those who really know what's going on, what you just did was buy some time to an event that would change the world forever.
Most Diablo fans love the game most for its loot grinding aspect. So yeah to a lot of people him, and especially Baal are there for drops and getting experience. That's not Diablo or Baal's fault.
Like I stated though, these demons tend to work a lot through proxy. This is why Lazarus is such an awesome villain. You do in fact know his story more than Diablo's. But Diablo is there pulling all the strings. And yeah, Diablo just seems to do what is in his nature. You take his actions less personal. But with Lazarus, fuck that guy! And the way Lazarus taunts you....ooh it gets so personal with him and I love it for that.
This is exactly why I've always said Nihlathak was my favorite boss fight. Nihl was a mortal, like you. He was a betrayer. Not some demon who was evil from the beginning. So he was riddled with guilt and totally compromised and he was weak and Baal recognized all of this so he manipulated him and coerced him. And all the while Nihl sees you as someone trying to help. Part of his reaction is that he feels all his hopeless so he laughs at you thinking you can do anything to help. But also because Nihl feels it is him who must help and redeem himself, not some stranger that just wanders into town. So he tried to hinder your progress, and he mocks you and taunts you. And by the time you finally pursue him to the depths of his filthy lair (which is also one of my favorite levels), he's still there just throwing insults at you and fucking exploding corpses at you. So when you kill him it is wayyy satisfying. Not at all like when you kill Baal.
All this is even why I just wish we could fight more humans in D3. Just people who are evil, or they are bandits or thugs or murderers. Cause there's something more personal about those kinds of confrontations. Just like when I get to Kurast and there are all those Zakuramites. They are my favorite things to kill in Act 3 because they were mortals like me but they were too weak to resist corruption and it feels so righteous and vindictive to slay them.
I don't know, have you played the first game? Diablo hardly feels like a faceless demon to me in that game. And in D2 he's just about as interesting as his story is told through the Wanderer. It's interesting cause you're constantly wondering what the relationship is between Diablo and the Wanderer. Cause on one hand, you know, you're walking around in the body of the guy that killed you. And while the Warrior was arrogant to think he could contain Diablo (well, I don't think he really did it out of arrogance as much as just a sense of duty), you know all along there must be something of the Warrior's humanity in there somewhere and it exists in part with Diablo's soul as well. So it's all kind of interesting to me anyway.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
As in Darth Vader (Pre-Lucas Prequels) would wet his big black pants over him?
For me, he's loot. Background. I'm hoping 3 will change that.
It's like missing an complex psique in an monster like the Cthulhu or Sauron (in the Lord of the Ring series! Silma excluded)... The great thing about those guys is that you can't understand their motivations because they are WAY above you, just the way people can't understand the motivation behind the christian God (or any God of any real life religion). Thats part of creating a "overbeign" character.
Maybe the D3 is missing an human character to take the whole of the human nemesis, because most people really like to understand villains and reject vilains that should not be undertood (your case rejecting Diablo). At some points Diablo had villains such as those like Lazarus in DI and the high priest Malic in the Birthright book. I think in D3 Azmodan and Belial oddly have more human traits, so you might like then...
(And yes, the Warrior has a name, revealed in DIII.)
We get more of a glimpse of his brothers, Mephisto and Baal. The former is totally into the whole evil, dominate-the-world thing, while Baal obviously takes delight in wreaking havoc on a much more personal level. In this way, Baal and Mephisto are at opposite ends.
Diablo... well, we never get a sense for where Diablo fits in. The Book of Cain suggests he's much more personal, like Baal, as he "views himself as an artist of terror," but so far we don't really see any indication of that in the games. He's just kinda... there.
You are right that the brothers are much more well known than Diablo himself. Which might be part of the point of the game. Nothing that happens in Sanctuary would have been possible without Diablo. Like I said, he is more of an event than an individual. Which is where his appeal comes from.
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
But other then that moment, it always seemed as if the Heavens were the real pressing danger. They were the ones I felt like the real 'bad guys'. They were the one's were i was always like shit, shit, what are they doing to do? kind of feeling, whereas the Prime's were just kind of speed bumps on the way there. I knew they had the potential to fuck shit up, but they weren't ever moving forward fast enough for it to be a true concern.
Granted, this was all part of their scheming plan, and now shit has the potential to hit the fan. I'm hoping that this is where Diablo steps in and goes 'it's my turn, who want's to play a game?'
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Wise ElderSo, D2 starts with him killing almost everyone we knew and loved from the first game, and Deckard Cain almost died too (he should have). It amazes me that Baal and him didn't kill Tyrael when they could. He is the mastermind behind all the events in Diablo 2, he set his brothers free.
He had a freaking thorns minion right before you arrived at his lair to kill him, and my first character - a Zealot Paladin - got murdered countless times on those stupid minions.
Yeah, I feel a lot of hatred towards mister D, and to me he's the big villain and the responsible for everything bad happening at Sanctuary.
To be honest it seems like there's a lot of rationalization for why he's so evil when to me that should be obvious from the start. The best version of him creeping me out as a villain which someone pointed out is that he invades your character at the end of Diablo 1. I remember when I first saw that cutscene and it did send a shiver down my spine. So that is a good villainous trait. And in 2 watching him slowly envelop our warrior from the first game was eerie, but still these things are still passive threats. Diablo is always trying to mettle with things, as demons do. His threat seems to be more about "What COULD happen..." vs. "Diablo just burnt down half the planet." (Except I get the feeling in D3 we may come to see him pull off something like that.)
And ignoring all that stuff and just looking at him as a variable in a cosmology, I'm not entirely sure he should be described evil. As Siaynoq mentioned in his first post, he's more a being of chaos than evil.
And let's remember Baal from the D2 expansion. Baal led an army and seemed to have very human traits. He had more going on than Diablo at least. And remember, that Diablo is a known as a PRIME EVIL for a reason. He's evil.
**Edit: Did some more Diablo research. He's apparently the strongest brother and drives those that work for him through sheer terror, which are some damn good villain traits.
A good point to be sure. Then again I'm not entirely sure I prefer such a characterization
Semantics aside, I do not question that he is evil, merely that it doesn't necessarily make to describe him as such. But it was more of a useless remark than an actual contribution to the discussion.
Like, the High Heavens had largely an indifference toward Sanctuary which could prove in the end to be just as harmful to mortals because they'd all be willing to just destroy the mortal realm on a whim. But doing that could actually be harder than a mere whim as well.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
However, along with his brothers, he represents all that is dark in the universe. I think The Book of Cain even mentions the way they feed upon one another...Terror begets Hatred, Hatred begets Destruction...which begets Terror once more. And when you consider that these three things are best achieved with the help of human hands...well, suddenly Diablo lives up to his title, at least in my eyes.