Sacrifice still costs no mana, so assume that you only use Bears on Champs for the most part. Basically sacrifice will kill all trash mobs combined with grasp. The point being that it keeps your GF stack at 5. This is very difficult to do most of the time right now.
Apparently Bears isn't getting nerfed either. So basically you would have 50% Int, +650 Int from SH, and 20% Damage from PtV. And on top of that you'll rarely cast Bears on trash, so you'll rarely use mana.
When you encounter a champ pack, you sacrifice a few dogs leftover and then Jaunt + Bears until you run out of mana + resummon / sacrifice + Bears again.
This build seems extremely strong to me because it should allow you to use Bears without need any real mana regen. Of course some people will be able to do that simply because they have insane damage. But this build you could do it with far less damage.
But still, you have to trust that your Bears are strong enough to kill a pack with a few sacrifices, and that you can survive without JF and SV simply because you have huge damage.
You could also get either Honored Guest or drop PtV for something else depending on how you feel. But PtV seems like it would be very good against trash mobs with sacrifice. Also, you could swap something else in for Bears... but I still think it does the most damage.
An alternative version of the build could look like this:
That's 15% PtP, 20% PtV, 50% Int GF and +650 Int SH. All you have to do is be able to get enough globe spawns from Grasp + Sacrifice to keep it at 50% and have enough mana to actually use Bears (or maybe another ability).
I've been tellin you guys for the last 3 days...exploding zombie dogs = FTW. I'm going to do it, like it, and make it work. Just don't know how yet, and don't want to commit to any spec ideas yet until I see the OFFICIAL patch notes.
I think unless your gear is amazing you'll hit a brick wall on elite packs. 275% x 3 isn't even close to enough to put a dent into champ packs. Also, good luck against ranged champs or even normal ranged mobs that split up and run away.
We gotta see how things will work with the 2h weapon buff, elite hp nerf and provoke the pack on most of the time. I think one's gotta build very DPS-ish (criticals) and only get some HP regen for dogs. The thing is, dogs gotta survuve trash mobs, not elite. We gotta see how the whole pet buff will turns out.
i play a sacrifice build already, have been for a while.
its more of a group build, meaning it doesnt work well in solo games (due to the obvious difficulties of elite packs) however in public games its alot of fun.
patch makes it possible to reduce the cooldown of summon dogs to <1
If you can get your cooldown to under 10 seconds (very possible post-patch), the build becomes viable. The key, I think, is not in summoning and instant-sacrificing in most circumstances. It is instead with timing your sacrifice for best effect. Remember that the dogs are MUCH tougher than before, and unless one is swarmed under it will likely stick around for at least a few seconds (general assumption is 3-5 hit minimum if you have some gear and Jungle Fortitude). I've seen videos of dedicated pet builds that calculated out to 12+ hits before regen (and he had Healing Journey... and tons of Thorns plus FL).
Also looking at Grave Injustice to go with Circle of Life, since you'll be wearing around +20 pickup radius for these builds anyway. Wouldn't be all that great for bosses (though bosses aren't all that tough to down in most cases), but it has potential.
I agree 275% x 3 isn't great damage. That's kind of why I tried to build around buffing another ability. The problem with sacrifice will always be the fact that you can't get more dogs against elites, which means it'll always be weak by itself. However, the idea with this build is to keep Gruesome Feast at 5 stacks (which very rarely happens right now like I said) and be able to use PtP for a constant 15% additional damage. Even if you use Next of Kin, you'll hit that wall against champs because it's just not enough damage and the radius is hard to work with.
The question is wheter 65-75 regen per sec + Swallow Your Soul + Honored Guest is enough mana to use an ability like Firebats or Bears (or something else) to burst down an elite pack, considering that you have PtV also.
Bears is like 275 / sec with a 1.5 weapon, so about 200 mana / sec after regen. Even with multiple sacrifices that's not going to be near enough damage I don't think. Could it be done with a 2H? Maybe... but with a 1H I don't think this is an option.
Which means that there are only 2 options as I see it if you're trying to use PtP with GF like this... either use a Primary or use Spirit Barrage. Something like these:
As for Grave Injustice... it's a good ability, but at this point I don't think it goes well with sacrifice unless you're trying to use it for life regen or something. Basically sacrifice will always be flawed because you can't get more dogs against champs. Even if you drag enemies with you, you can't always do that and it's riskier. I think it's best to use with a typical BBV / FA (and even MC or Garg) build where you can have both 2 min cds up for every single champ pack.
I'm considering a build like this using GI as well, but getting a lot of pickup radius gear is kind of annoying.
Anyways... you shouldn't need more than 3 dogs to kill white mobs, even after the buff. Grasp + 3 Dogs should definitely kill a group. I question whether it's more efficient than other options though... because if you're killing less than like 5 mobs (which happens a lot) it may be pretty common to only get 1-2 dogs back.
It all depends if having +50% Intellect and +15% Damage but having to use a Primary or Spirit Barrage is better than using Bears or Bats (etc) with VQ and a lot less +% Damage.
Right now I feel like this build could be extremely good if they're going to adjust the super slow base attack speed of Spirit Barrage.
I think the big issue is why you want to destroy your newly buffed tanking pets for a 275% damage nuke and a slot on your bar.
My biggest problem using sacrifice while leveling was often times just the AI involved. Sometimes all 3 of your dogs charge a white mob slightly off screen while an elite pack rushes you. If the dogs had some kind of AI that caused them to spread out on the battlefield that would be one thing, but they can clump in extremely awkward ways.
People used splinters for so long because it had great damage, but I think one thing many people overlook is just the functionability of splinters vs. all our other skills. It's got incredible range in a straight line with instant damage. Very few WD skills even travel in a straight line. I think if splinters did way less damage, people would still have used it just because many of our skills are so damn hard to hit with.
You can't target sacrifice. The explosion radius isn't amazing either. These are issues I don't think Blizzard is compensating for when it comes to damage. Like many of the WD changes, I think they are just looking at things on paper and balancing around math only.
Don't get me wrong - I think you can make a sacrifice build work. The fun factor is also very high. But I think you'll find you'd rather just spend mana on a spell you can actually target, and one that isn't tied to conditional chances, no matter how high the %s.
I agree 275% x 3 isn't great damage. That's kind of why I tried to build around buffing another ability. The problem with sacrifice will always be the fact that you can't get more dogs against elites, which means it'll always be weak by itself.
Basically sacrifice will always be flawed because you can't get more dogs against champs
I believe this reply was meant toward the setup of re-summoning dogs? I mean you can simply spawn more dogs when you have 0 cooldown on it. That's when 3 x 275% damage is very nice.
Are you talking about getting some new gear with reduced ZD cooldown? Because the base will be like 34 seconds even with Tribal Rites.
You have to ignore Grave Injustice / Death Is Life / CoL against champs because it's all based around killing things. Even GF is kind of a stretch since each stack only lasts 10 sec. But hopefully you would get enough globes from dogs + the ones champs drop to keep it at 5 stacks most of the time.
I mean even though Spirit Barrage is single target... with this build you'd be looking at +650 Int, +50% Total Int, +15% Damage on an ability that does 230% base Damage... seems pretty good.
This is killing me ! All this talk about a potential spec, and we're only going off of data-mined patch notes ! I wish the talent calcs would update !!!
I do think it might be viable for solo play. You have Helm that reduces cd the most I've seen was reduce 9 sec CD from helm. You also have that new Legendary OH that reduces CD of zombie dogs.
With the new CD of ZD 45 sec - 25% from TR (11.25 Sec) - 9 sec - 15 sec = 9.75 CD
Anotherfob, you're forgetting three things. They are: Stone of Jordan, Mara's Kaleidoscope, and Skull Grasp. That's two rings and an amulet, and all of them can roll ANY skill bonus. This means that they can, in fact, each have a ZD cooldown reduction, and all are iLvl 62. They're legendaries, true, but they are present in the game and any one of them can bring your cooldown down by 7-8 seconds. It is in fact possible to zilch out the ZD cooldown without needing passives.
but i can only think of the poor dogs feelings... getting summoned to help there loved master... then you blow them up
im not going to use sacrifice, im more into keeping them up and having them as a wall in front of me, while i nuke
btw mass confuse have a rune that gives 50% chance to spawn a dog when killed while confused. long cd, but guess its a pretty cool bonus, the confuse CC works really great
That makes this skill very useful I think. They'll need to make other changes to balance this.
For example...
http://us.battle.net...UdYf!ZYW!bZaYZc
Sacrifice still costs no mana, so assume that you only use Bears on Champs for the most part. Basically sacrifice will kill all trash mobs combined with grasp. The point being that it keeps your GF stack at 5. This is very difficult to do most of the time right now.
Apparently Bears isn't getting nerfed either. So basically you would have 50% Int, +650 Int from SH, and 20% Damage from PtV. And on top of that you'll rarely cast Bears on trash, so you'll rarely use mana.
When you encounter a champ pack, you sacrifice a few dogs leftover and then Jaunt + Bears until you run out of mana + resummon / sacrifice + Bears again.
This build seems extremely strong to me because it should allow you to use Bears without need any real mana regen. Of course some people will be able to do that simply because they have insane damage. But this build you could do it with far less damage.
But still, you have to trust that your Bears are strong enough to kill a pack with a few sacrifices, and that you can survive without JF and SV simply because you have huge damage.
You could also get either Honored Guest or drop PtV for something else depending on how you feel. But PtV seems like it would be very good against trash mobs with sacrifice. Also, you could swap something else in for Bears... but I still think it does the most damage.
An alternative version of the build could look like this:
http://us.battle.net...UdYf!ZYW!bcaYZc
Or this:
http://us.battle.net...UdYf!ZYW!bcZaZc
That's 15% PtP, 20% PtV, 50% Int GF and +650 Int SH. All you have to do is be able to get enough globe spawns from Grasp + Sacrifice to keep it at 50% and have enough mana to actually use Bears (or maybe another ability).
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZVUdYc!ZYW!bcZaZa
^ This might actually be the best version since survivability will be an issue.
Reduces cooldown on dogs in the new patch.
its more of a group build, meaning it doesnt work well in solo games (due to the obvious difficulties of elite packs) however in public games its alot of fun.
patch makes it possible to reduce the cooldown of summon dogs to <1
i r shitmypants excited
Also looking at Grave Injustice to go with Circle of Life, since you'll be wearing around +20 pickup radius for these builds anyway. Wouldn't be all that great for bosses (though bosses aren't all that tough to down in most cases), but it has potential.
The question is wheter 65-75 regen per sec + Swallow Your Soul + Honored Guest is enough mana to use an ability like Firebats or Bears (or something else) to burst down an elite pack, considering that you have PtV also.
Bears is like 275 / sec with a 1.5 weapon, so about 200 mana / sec after regen. Even with multiple sacrifices that's not going to be near enough damage I don't think. Could it be done with a 2H? Maybe... but with a 1H I don't think this is an option.
Which means that there are only 2 options as I see it if you're trying to use PtP with GF like this... either use a Primary or use Spirit Barrage. Something like these:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZVUdYa!ZYW!bcaYZa
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZVUdYg!ZYf!bcaYZa
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZVUdYg!ZYW!bcZaZb
As for Grave Injustice... it's a good ability, but at this point I don't think it goes well with sacrifice unless you're trying to use it for life regen or something. Basically sacrifice will always be flawed because you can't get more dogs against champs. Even if you drag enemies with you, you can't always do that and it's riskier. I think it's best to use with a typical BBV / FA (and even MC or Garg) build where you can have both 2 min cds up for every single champ pack.
I'm considering a build like this using GI as well, but getting a lot of pickup radius gear is kind of annoying.
Anyways... you shouldn't need more than 3 dogs to kill white mobs, even after the buff. Grasp + 3 Dogs should definitely kill a group. I question whether it's more efficient than other options though... because if you're killing less than like 5 mobs (which happens a lot) it may be pretty common to only get 1-2 dogs back.
It all depends if having +50% Intellect and +15% Damage but having to use a Primary or Spirit Barrage is better than using Bears or Bats (etc) with VQ and a lot less +% Damage.
Right now I feel like this build could be extremely good if they're going to adjust the super slow base attack speed of Spirit Barrage.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZVUdYg!ZYf!bcaYZa
My biggest problem using sacrifice while leveling was often times just the AI involved. Sometimes all 3 of your dogs charge a white mob slightly off screen while an elite pack rushes you. If the dogs had some kind of AI that caused them to spread out on the battlefield that would be one thing, but they can clump in extremely awkward ways.
People used splinters for so long because it had great damage, but I think one thing many people overlook is just the functionability of splinters vs. all our other skills. It's got incredible range in a straight line with instant damage. Very few WD skills even travel in a straight line. I think if splinters did way less damage, people would still have used it just because many of our skills are so damn hard to hit with.
You can't target sacrifice. The explosion radius isn't amazing either. These are issues I don't think Blizzard is compensating for when it comes to damage. Like many of the WD changes, I think they are just looking at things on paper and balancing around math only.
Don't get me wrong - I think you can make a sacrifice build work. The fun factor is also very high. But I think you'll find you'd rather just spend mana on a spell you can actually target, and one that isn't tied to conditional chances, no matter how high the %s.
Are you talking about getting some new gear with reduced ZD cooldown? Because the base will be like 34 seconds even with Tribal Rites.
You have to ignore Grave Injustice / Death Is Life / CoL against champs because it's all based around killing things. Even GF is kind of a stretch since each stack only lasts 10 sec. But hopefully you would get enough globes from dogs + the ones champs drop to keep it at 5 stacks most of the time.
I mean even though Spirit Barrage is single target... with this build you'd be looking at +650 Int, +50% Total Int, +15% Damage on an ability that does 230% base Damage... seems pretty good.
http://us.battle.net...UVYX!dhW!aaZZZb
I do think it might be viable for solo play. You have Helm that reduces cd the most I've seen was reduce 9 sec CD from helm. You also have that new Legendary OH that reduces CD of zombie dogs.
With the new CD of ZD 45 sec - 25% from TR (11.25 Sec) - 9 sec - 15 sec = 9.75 CD
EDIT: Derwiv beat me to it
but i can only think of the poor dogs feelings... getting summoned to help there loved master... then you blow them up
im not going to use sacrifice, im more into keeping them up and having them as a wall in front of me, while i nuke
btw mass confuse have a rune that gives 50% chance to spawn a dog when killed while confused. long cd, but guess its a pretty cool bonus, the confuse CC works really great