While I've seen the topic brought up in various threads, I hadn't seen any dedicated discussion about the removal of "snapshotting" in 1.07.
If we assume no gear swapping, how do you guys think the standard builds (say, Cyclone and TR) will compare to 1.06 DPS wise?
It seems like TR is going to be strictly better, but I've seen some monks claiming the standard Cyclone build will actually get weaker, due to how Blinding Flash: FitL benefits from fast attack speed (i.e. dual wielding).
It seems safe to say that Blinding Flash: FitL generally won't be used anymore, but what skills does everyone plan to substitute? Does anyone think the newly buffed spirit spenders can be efficient in a standard Cyclone build? And while I strongly doubt it, does anyone think a build that doesn't use Sweeping Winds could ever compete against cookie-cutter Cyclone?
Honestly this is why I never abused snapshotting. I knew it would be altered/removed eventually. It won't affect me or my builds one bit. I'm actually glad to see it go.
Actually, I'll probably keep blinding flash, it's still a nice defensive utility and it+mantra is probably the best damage boost you can get for that low spirit cost.
Still, that "nerf" is pretty annoying, monks weren't exactly the highest dps class even with the snapshotting (excluding the extreme gear swapping) and buffing a spirit spender that costs half your spirit doesn't exactly make me want to use it more..
this nerf should have been put in place months ago. It was a terrible mechanic that too many people abused.
With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.
Just so I'm clear - SW does not really benefit from a snapshot at all anymore - just the dps of each weapon (if you DW) and the current dps at the time? So Blinding Flash will only help SW while the 4 seconds of Blinding Flash is up?
I assumed that I read the notes correctly - so I started experimenting with Exploding Palm for the first time. I see the beenfit, the dmg is nice - however, I have an Echoing Fury and I can't get the benefit of Exploding Palm in action very much, becuase of the fear on EF. So I also added in Cyclone Strike. Which again, helps, but with burning through so much spirit to constant spam Cyclone Strike and Exploding Palm - I very rarely have the spirit to be able to recast Sweeping Winds when it falls off at the next set of mobs.
Just so I'm clear - SW does not really benefit from a snapshot at all anymore - just the dps of each weapon (if you DW) and the current dps at the time? So Blinding Flash will only help SW while the 4 seconds of Blinding Flash is up?
I assumed that I read the notes correctly - so I started experimenting with Exploding Palm for the first time. I see the beenfit, the dmg is nice - however, I have an Echoing Fury and I can't get the benefit of Exploding Palm in action very much, becuase of the fear on EF. So I also added in Cyclone Strike. Which again, helps, but with burning through so much spirit to constant spam Cyclone Strike and Exploding Palm - I very rarely have the spirit to be able to recast Sweeping Winds when it falls off at the next set of mobs.
Thoughts?
Correct, the buff from Blinding Flash will only last the few seconds that it is active, after which SW will not retain the buff, same as everything else.
My thoughts on the spirit spending issue?
I am very much inclined to start using TR build, as many bars do with WW, for farming AND ubers - making it my primary and only build...
That and, I've always hated EF for the fear thing. Used it once for 20 minutes and never touched it again.
Wave of light Is completely amazing on the PTR If youre using a 2H build, It crushes spamming overawe. If you are using a TR build youll be swimming in spirit you can use both Mantra and Wave of light for high MP farming ( I can kill most elite packs in Under 15 seconds on MP6 on the PTR).
Ive been experimenting with an exploding palm/wave of light TR build too, Im not sure I like it, but when you pull it off just right the effects are amazing
Just so I'm clear - SW does not really benefit from a snapshot at all anymore - just the dps of each weapon (if you DW) and the current dps at the time? So Blinding Flash will only help SW while the 4 seconds of Blinding Flash is up?
I assumed that I read the notes correctly - so I started experimenting with Exploding Palm for the first time. I see the beenfit, the dmg is nice - however, I have an Echoing Fury and I can't get the benefit of Exploding Palm in action very much, becuase of the fear on EF. So I also added in Cyclone Strike. Which again, helps, but with burning through so much spirit to constant spam Cyclone Strike and Exploding Palm - I very rarely have the spirit to be able to recast Sweeping Winds when it falls off at the next set of mobs.
Thoughts?
EF's fear is a problematic, and it only gets worse at higher MP levels. One solution I've seen people opt for is using Butcher's Sickle in conjunction with EF. The hook procs quite often so it can really help to reel in your target before they go sprinting off the screen. That being said, I'm not really a fan of EF as the high DPS it provides is almost theoretical in the face of the fear proc. But if you've already invested in a good EF, I think a good Butcher's Sickle is worth looking into.
As for the spirit issues, although it's not as important for dual-wielding builds (as opposed to TR), the 4-piece bonus from Inna's Grandeur reduces SW's spirit cost to a paltry 5 spirit. But if you don't at least have two pieces already, I wouldn't worry about it. The removal of snapshotting actually devalues the 4-piece bonus; since the damage of SW is now dynamically recalculated, the only incentives to keep SW "rolling" are:
1) Avoiding having to pay the spirit cost for recasting
2) Keeping your stacks (which are trivial to regain with even moderate crit chance)
Since number 2 is basically a non-issue, occasionally having to pay 75 spirit to recast SW isn't a huge problem. But in case you weren't already doing this, you can refresh SW by punching objects (bone piles, barrels, etc.). Just make sure you have line of effect so you teleport to the object, otherwise you may end up blowing it up with SW's aura before you can punch. This will help you to keep SW going when you end up in dead zones (i.e. areas without mobs).
With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.
Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.
Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...
Blazing Fists is a lot better than forsight in higher monster power , ull have time to refresh BF and it will give you more spirit and more cyclone procs.Forsight I find is good for lower monster power as u just need to refresh it and then forget about it for 30 sec.
With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.
Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.
Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...
Can you keep the WotHF 3 sec buff with Fists of Thunder? Deadly Reach's buff lasts 30 seconds that's why. The above build focuses on FoT+Thunderclap as the main attack, the other spirit generator is only there for buffing and/or utility.
Are you referring to the extra 8% from Combination Strike? It lasts for 30 seconds even though the tooltip says 3 sec (as long as you continue with FoT which you ofc will). And WoaHF 5stack is refreshed every 5th second to keep it up all the time, yes.
And ofc, FoT + Thunderclap is the main attack. Just one click on WoaHF will refresh the stacks, so you can continue to nuke with FoT. With high att. speed you hit 3 times with WoaHF and get 5 stacks in just 1 sec. Refreshing it is even faster.
Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.
Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...
While WotHF: Blazing Fists is definitely the more interesting choice, I'm not sure it's really better than DR: Foresight.
Sheet numbers on my particular character show Foresight to be superior (albeit slightly) to Blazing Fists from a DPS standpoint. While 15% extra movespeed at 3 stacks is certainly attractive, the buff is most likely to expire when it would be the most valuable; running through dead zones without mobs. Although the tooltip states that you gain stacks on crits, you can refresh your stacks by punching destructible objects (apparently they can be critically hit). But unlike with Thunderclap (with SW), you have to stop movement to refresh your BF stacks, which makes the the extra movespeed the ability provides largely theoretical (I think you'd be hard pressed to get it to perform even as well as Fleet Footed).
Moreover, the percentage of your time spent in transit compared to time spent in combat is inversely proportional to MP level. In other words, movespeed is devalued when most of your time is spent in combat. With the 1.07 MP changes, I suspect running as quickly as possible through MP0 will no longer be ideal for most characters.
The final nail in the coffin for Blazing Fists is that to reap its bonuses, you have to use Thunderclap less. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, but I can't think of any situation where Blazing Fists outperforms Thunderclap. Because you only need to really use Foresight every 30 seconds to see the full benefit, this means you get to spend nearly all your time Thunderclapping. And to add insult to injury, Foresight is basically "fire and forget", making it both easier to use and technically superior.
On the bright side, Exploding Palm is going to be amazing
Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.
Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...
While WotHF: Blazing Fists is definitely the more interesting choice, I'm not sure it's really better than DR: Foresight.
Sheet numbers on my particular character show Foresight to be superior (albeit slightly) to Blazing Fists from a DPS standpoint. While 15% extra movespeed at 3 stacks is certainly attractive, the buff is most likely to expire when it would be the most valuable; running through dead zones without mobs. Although the tooltip states that you gain stacks on crits, you can refresh your stacks by punching destructible objects (apparently they can be critically hit). But unlike with Thunderclap (with SW), you have to stop movement to refresh your BF stacks, which makes the the extra movespeed the ability provides largely theoretical (I think you'd be hard pressed to get it to perform even as well as Fleet Footed).
Moreover, the percentage of your time spent in transit compared to time spent in combat is inversely proportional to MP level. In other words, movespeed is devalued when most of your time is spent in combat. With the 1.07 MP changes, I suspect running as quickly as possible through MP0 will no longer be ideal for most characters.
The final nail in the coffin for Blazing Fists is that to reap its bonuses, you have to use Thunderclap less. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, but I can't think of any situation where Blazing Fists outperforms Thunderclap. Because you only need to really use Foresight every 30 seconds to see the full benefit, this means you get to spend nearly all your time Thunderclapping. And to add insult to injury, Foresight is basically "fire and forget", making it both easier to use and technically superior.
On the bright side, Exploding Palm is going to be amazing
You got some good points there my friend, but I still feel you overlook a few things. We have to spend more time refreshing BF, compared to DR. And yes, Thunderclap IS the best DPS skill (out of our spirit generators) as far as I know. But the extra spirit we generate from BF will net us so much spirit. I have tons of attack speed on my gear, but I still feel (when testing DR) that I'm waiting on spirit to be able to keep Overawe up (48% bonus) and spam all the Exploding Palms I want.
But I think it's a matter of finding the setup you like. BF can be a pain to refresh all the time. DR on the other hand is easier to live with in that respect. If only they could give DR a timer like they give BF stacks... Oh well.
Another good reason as to why BF is superior is the fact that most top geared MP10 farming monks use that build (the one I'm using). I'm not going to act like a fanboy here, but I like to think they know what they are talking about. Just take a look at Invis when he streams. He talks about his build a lot and it makes sense to me.
Btw: when doing ubers, I use 3 spirit generators. BF, Thunderclap and DR. The dps. Oh lord, the numbers! Gotta love it. But I love Exploding Palm more
Cyclones generated by Sweeping Wind should now travel roughly in the same direction that the player is facing
How it will affect TR Build ? what do u guys think , it will help or not ? i worry about that cuz now even if cyclons spawn randomly they usualy go behind me killing mobs i left.
Not sure why you bring that up here, but I'll answer anyways.
When running TR you will move so fast it wont be much of a difference. The tornadoes won't move faster than you, so there is no way they will be less effective.
Having said that, Cyclone is not the best alternative when doing TR. Firestorm is much better since it has a much larger radius. This is something I have tested for hours and I used it for most of my Paragon levling. On MP 0-2.
Having said that, Cyclone is not the best alternative when doing TR. Firestorm is much better since it has a much larger radius. This is something I have tested for hours and I used it for most of my Paragon levling. On MP 0-2.
I strongly agree with this conclusion. Through personal testing I've found Cyclone to be completely underwhelming in TR builds. The proc coefficient on TR is abysmal which results in very few cyclones being produced, even with decent crit chance. If you need some more spirit in a TR build, go with Inner Storm. Otherwise, I consider Firestorm essentially the only other choice.
If a significant number of mobs are left standing after you TR through them with Firestorm, it's a DPS issue; Cyclones won't fix that regardless of which direction they travel.
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If we assume no gear swapping, how do you guys think the standard builds (say, Cyclone and TR) will compare to 1.06 DPS wise?
It seems like TR is going to be strictly better, but I've seen some monks claiming the standard Cyclone build will actually get weaker, due to how Blinding Flash: FitL benefits from fast attack speed (i.e. dual wielding).
It seems safe to say that Blinding Flash: FitL generally won't be used anymore, but what skills does everyone plan to substitute? Does anyone think the newly buffed spirit spenders can be efficient in a standard Cyclone build? And while I strongly doubt it, does anyone think a build that doesn't use Sweeping Winds could ever compete against cookie-cutter Cyclone?
http://us.battle.net...498/hero/322534
Yeah, I was thinking something like this might become the new optimal dual-wield build:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#abgVSk!TUg!acYYca
With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.
this nerf should have been put in place months ago. It was a terrible mechanic that too many people abused.
With Sweeping Wind now dynamically updating, does this mean it will be recalculated with every hit when dual-wielding?
Unless they change it to mainhand damage only (like Rend), then yes - SW damage will update/change to the active weapon with every strike.
I guess this means having high damage weapons in both hands will become extra important? Sounds like a real PITA.
Seems like Blizzard should really consider making SW behave like Rend now that snapshotting is gone.
Just so I'm clear - SW does not really benefit from a snapshot at all anymore - just the dps of each weapon (if you DW) and the current dps at the time? So Blinding Flash will only help SW while the 4 seconds of Blinding Flash is up?
I assumed that I read the notes correctly - so I started experimenting with Exploding Palm for the first time. I see the beenfit, the dmg is nice - however, I have an Echoing Fury and I can't get the benefit of Exploding Palm in action very much, becuase of the fear on EF. So I also added in Cyclone Strike. Which again, helps, but with burning through so much spirit to constant spam Cyclone Strike and Exploding Palm - I very rarely have the spirit to be able to recast Sweeping Winds when it falls off at the next set of mobs.
Thoughts?
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
Correct, the buff from Blinding Flash will only last the few seconds that it is active, after which SW will not retain the buff, same as everything else.
My thoughts on the spirit spending issue?
I am very much inclined to start using TR build, as many bars do with WW, for farming AND ubers - making it my primary and only build...
That and, I've always hated EF for the fear thing. Used it once for 20 minutes and never touched it again.
Ive been experimenting with an exploding palm/wave of light TR build too, Im not sure I like it, but when you pull it off just right the effects are amazing
EF's fear is a problematic, and it only gets worse at higher MP levels. One solution I've seen people opt for is using Butcher's Sickle in conjunction with EF. The hook procs quite often so it can really help to reel in your target before they go sprinting off the screen. That being said, I'm not really a fan of EF as the high DPS it provides is almost theoretical in the face of the fear proc. But if you've already invested in a good EF, I think a good Butcher's Sickle is worth looking into.
As for the spirit issues, although it's not as important for dual-wielding builds (as opposed to TR), the 4-piece bonus from Inna's Grandeur reduces SW's spirit cost to a paltry 5 spirit. But if you don't at least have two pieces already, I wouldn't worry about it. The removal of snapshotting actually devalues the 4-piece bonus; since the damage of SW is now dynamically recalculated, the only incentives to keep SW "rolling" are:
1) Avoiding having to pay the spirit cost for recasting
2) Keeping your stacks (which are trivial to regain with even moderate crit chance)
Since number 2 is basically a non-issue, occasionally having to pay 75 spirit to recast SW isn't a huge problem. But in case you weren't already doing this, you can refresh SW by punching objects (bone piles, barrels, etc.). Just make sure you have line of effect so you teleport to the object, otherwise you may end up blowing it up with SW's aura before you can punch. This will help you to keep SW going when you end up in dead zones (i.e. areas without mobs).
Hope these suggestions help!
Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.
Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...
Are you referring to the extra 8% from Combination Strike? It lasts for 30 seconds even though the tooltip says 3 sec (as long as you continue with FoT which you ofc will). And WoaHF 5stack is refreshed every 5th second to keep it up all the time, yes.
And ofc, FoT + Thunderclap is the main attack. Just one click on WoaHF will refresh the stacks, so you can continue to nuke with FoT. With high att. speed you hit 3 times with WoaHF and get 5 stacks in just 1 sec. Refreshing it is even faster.
While WotHF: Blazing Fists is definitely the more interesting choice, I'm not sure it's really better than DR: Foresight.
Sheet numbers on my particular character show Foresight to be superior (albeit slightly) to Blazing Fists from a DPS standpoint. While 15% extra movespeed at 3 stacks is certainly attractive, the buff is most likely to expire when it would be the most valuable; running through dead zones without mobs. Although the tooltip states that you gain stacks on crits, you can refresh your stacks by punching destructible objects (apparently they can be critically hit). But unlike with Thunderclap (with SW), you have to stop movement to refresh your BF stacks, which makes the the extra movespeed the ability provides largely theoretical (I think you'd be hard pressed to get it to perform even as well as Fleet Footed).
Moreover, the percentage of your time spent in transit compared to time spent in combat is inversely proportional to MP level. In other words, movespeed is devalued when most of your time is spent in combat. With the 1.07 MP changes, I suspect running as quickly as possible through MP0 will no longer be ideal for most characters.
The final nail in the coffin for Blazing Fists is that to reap its bonuses, you have to use Thunderclap less. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, but I can't think of any situation where Blazing Fists outperforms Thunderclap. Because you only need to really use Foresight every 30 seconds to see the full benefit, this means you get to spend nearly all your time Thunderclapping. And to add insult to injury, Foresight is basically "fire and forget", making it both easier to use and technically superior.
On the bright side, Exploding Palm is going to be amazing
You got some good points there my friend, but I still feel you overlook a few things. We have to spend more time refreshing BF, compared to DR. And yes, Thunderclap IS the best DPS skill (out of our spirit generators) as far as I know. But the extra spirit we generate from BF will net us so much spirit. I have tons of attack speed on my gear, but I still feel (when testing DR) that I'm waiting on spirit to be able to keep Overawe up (48% bonus) and spam all the Exploding Palms I want.
But I think it's a matter of finding the setup you like. BF can be a pain to refresh all the time. DR on the other hand is easier to live with in that respect. If only they could give DR a timer like they give BF stacks... Oh well.
Another good reason as to why BF is superior is the fact that most top geared MP10 farming monks use that build (the one I'm using). I'm not going to act like a fanboy here, but I like to think they know what they are talking about. Just take a look at Invis when he streams. He talks about his build a lot and it makes sense to me.
Btw: when doing ubers, I use 3 spirit generators. BF, Thunderclap and DR. The dps. Oh lord, the numbers! Gotta love it. But I love Exploding Palm more
Not sure why you bring that up here, but I'll answer anyways.
When running TR you will move so fast it wont be much of a difference. The tornadoes won't move faster than you, so there is no way they will be less effective.
Having said that, Cyclone is not the best alternative when doing TR. Firestorm is much better since it has a much larger radius. This is something I have tested for hours and I used it for most of my Paragon levling. On MP 0-2.
This is something copied from this guide on TR.
Through my testing, I have found that if you have ~<42% chance to crit with Tempest Rush, Firestorm will yield better xp/hr than Cyclone on average.
Hope it helps.
I strongly agree with this conclusion. Through personal testing I've found Cyclone to be completely underwhelming in TR builds. The proc coefficient on TR is abysmal which results in very few cyclones being produced, even with decent crit chance. If you need some more spirit in a TR build, go with Inner Storm. Otherwise, I consider Firestorm essentially the only other choice.
If a significant number of mobs are left standing after you TR through them with Firestorm, it's a DPS issue; Cyclones won't fix that regardless of which direction they travel.