I came across an interesting scenario running through all of the things that have happened in the course of Diablo 1 and Diablo 2. Remember waaay back in Diablo 1 where the hero found the Staff of Lazarus? It was around either the 14th or 15th dungeon level. Anyways, we all remember that Lazarus went cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and that the hero had to slice him up, riddle him with arrows or fry him with various magical spells - whichever class you were, you did one of the following. Now, to get the quest to find Lazarus, you had to find his staff and give it to......Cain. I've looked at every possible Diablo lore I could find, looked at websites pertaining to both Diablo games, questioned a few people about it and NO ONE CAN TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT STAFF AFTER IT WAS GIVEN TO CAIN! No one knows if Cain studied it, which would be the most logical explanation, immediately discarded it or attempted to bury or destroy it, like his Horadrim forefathers did before him, or made a little cash and sold it. It would not be a stretch to assume this, though - since Lazarus himself was corrupted by Diablo's influence, it is highly likely that his possessions, to include his staff, other armaments and his armor, also held some demonic energies, if only slightly. At one point, though, the staff must have left Cain's possession because it is a Unique weapon in Diablo 2 (see Spire of Lazarus) but, for how long Cain had it is anyone's guess.
This alone, however, is not justification to suggest that our trustly scholarly friend might be somehow involved with the forces of evil. The next point I'd like to make has us fast forwarding to the beginning events of Diablo 2. The heroes, in need of advice on how best to deal with the demons and tackle Andariel, make a magical trip to Tristram to rescue Cain. Here's the next problem I run into - the Horadrim were the group of guys that sought, battled and imprisoned the Three Prime Evils and left them to their solitary (well, somewhat solitary in Baal's case) confinement. If I was a demon and I came across one of the followers of the Horadrim, I'd tear the hell outta the guy. After all, they would be considered to be a living symbol, in Cain's case, the last living symbol, of the mockery of my masters. That'd make for a nice war trophy, wouldn't it? WHY DIDN'T THE DEMONS JUST KILL HIM OUTRIGHT? It would make sense to me that this would be the natural course of action for demons bent on slaughtering everything and everyone they come across. Cain even said so himself in Diablo 2 that Hell's actions always seem bent on destruction (I cannot remember the exact quote) so why did the demons not do so in this case? They left him to die in a cage, which, for anyone who has watched the movie Willow knows, is not always the surest bet that someone would die that way.
One final point I'd like to make and that is what Cain does during the events in Diablo 2 and that is - EXACTLY WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT DECKARD CAIN TO DO. He studies and more than likely documents everything. "What would he study" you would ask? The heroes he accompanied. And how they fought. Who they fought, what they fought, how to overcome who and what they fought, what things they ventured across, especially if it was of a magical origin, how quickly they adapted to new adversities, and probably the most important of all - he more than likely studied the aftermath of the Battle for Mount Arreat. Your answer for why the forces of Hell would keep the last living member of the Horadrim alive - furthered accumulation of knowledge.
Think of this, Hell is always looking for a new edge, a stronger power to wield and conquer all of creation. And, don't forget! Hell can adapt, too. Look what the Prime Evils did with the knowledge Izual gave them about the Soulstones. Then, look what that knowledge combined with Tal Rasha's power accomplished. What power is there in knowledge? A great deal of it. Who specializes in accumulated knowledge and proficient use of it? The Horadrim...or, at least, they used to. There's still one left, though, he's not the battle hardened mage warrior his forefathers were. Imagine this - Baal has Tal Rasha's powers and knowledge. Diablo learns that information from his older brother and takes it for his own. He then gains the accumulated knowledge from Cain and adds that to his list of powers. Diablo would then have - Diablo 1's hero's fighting prowess, Tal Rasha's magical prowess and knowledge, all of the information on what the Horadrim has and had ever done plus all of what the other human clans have and had ever done up to the beginning of the events of Diablo 3.
Now, whether Cain might be a sort of sleeper agent or if just in coming in contact with an item that contains demonic influence or energy, such as Lazarus' staff, allows the greater denizens of Hell to peer into one's mind is arguable to any extent. However, when Diablo possessed the hero that sought to slay him, he must have been aware of Cain's knowledge and the extent of how it could be used. After all, the hero of Diablo 1 used it to great extent while battling through the levels of the cathedral, and the labyrinth below it, in order to solve the mystery of what happened to Albrecht. A mystery that Cain was very much involved in, to include partially solving that mystery himself! My belief is that Diablo knows Cain's value is in his intellect and intends on, somehow, collecting it and using it against any other group of heroes that would, once again, attempt to stop him.
Your thoughts?
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Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
There should be a Too Long; Didn't Read version of that. This thread would have more responses, methinks
But your vision of the unseen events is pretty cool. They're all plausible, and the fact that Cain lived while everybody was already dead in Tristram has plagued many a fan. Why would Diablo, who masterminded pretty much everything in D1 and 2, leave such a dangerous Horadrim live?
Maybe he was needed to guide the heroes of D2. Perhaps Cain thought he did was right, but actually did everything according to Hell's plans.
The things Cain did were certainly helping Hell, but I don't know if Cain did it knowingly or not. We (the heroes) certainly didn't
In a lot of cinematics The Wanderer seemed to be drawn somewhere. I think he felt where was supposed to go. In the act 2 cinematic it says "my companion seemed to know the way" or something like the.
I am curious how Diablo entered the tomb and closed it, while we made a hole in the wall with the Staff.
If he needed him alive, why didn't he take him with him? Well, maybe Marius wouldn't want to be with him if he took Cain.
Does Cain actually mention being interrogated by the wanderer? We don't know he even got any info from him, at least I don't remember it.
Also, in the ending of Diablo 1, the narrator tells the player that he was drawn to the east.
Quote from "emilemil1" »
He can summon demonic legions and creatures like Andariel and Duriel. I'm pretty sure he can repair a wall. Also remember that there are more than one Horadric Staff. He doesn't necessarily have to use the same as we did.
I would love to see Diablo summoning his minions to create a wall
Quote from "emilemil1" »
Perhaps because Cain is very old and would die from exhaustion xD
True dat, and dying a slow death is pretty evil.
Quote from "emilemil1" »
Btw, why did Diablo even accept that Marius followed him? It can't be possible that he knew about what would happen in the Tomb.
He probably knew that there would be something guarding Baal, perhaps he knew Tyrael would be there. Anyway, I think he took Marius with him as a precaution. He built a trusting relation with the guy so he would free Tal Rasha/Baal. Also, he probably sensed that Marius was pretty weak-minded so he didn't screw up their plans.
But why didn't he just summon a horde of minions like he did in the tavern and let them pull out the shard? Is it really that important that Marius had to be the one to follow him and possibly do it?
That is a really good point you raise there. I don't have a real explanation, except that Hell would find it awesome if mankind doomed themselves. Or perhaps he knew that Tyrael wouldn't kill a human.
There should be a Too Long; Didn't Read version of that. This thread would have more responses, methinks
But your vision of the unseen events is pretty cool. They're all plausible, and the fact that Cain lived while everybody was already dead in Tristram has plagued many a fan. Why would Diablo, who masterminded pretty much everything in D1 and 2, leave such a dangerous Horadrim live?
Maybe he was needed to guide the heroes of D2. Perhaps Cain thought he did was right, but actually did everything according to Hell's plans.
The things Cain did were certainly helping Hell, but I don't know if Cain did it knowingly or not. We (the heroes) certainly didn't
I think that this would be the most rational explanation. But nice thread man was a fun and interesting read.
But in what way did his guiding of the heroes help Hell? The prime evils died, remember
The only thing they did right was to corrupt the Worldstone, and Baal did that without even meeting the heroes before.
As was said during Blizzcon '08:
"Everything has gone as Hell has planned it."
It's a brilliant assault they planned in Diablo 2. In Kurast they split paths: Diablo into Hell and Baal towards Marius and Mt. Arreat. The hero had to choose between the paths to take and chose to prevent a Prime Evil to rule Hell again. This gave Baal a free path to Mt. Arreat, being able to corrupt the Worldstone.
Very interesting thread about cain being evil. Yeah there are a lot of loopholes and all but I still hold to the fact that Tyrael is bad based on what Anya said about the prophecies not saying anything about the worldstone needing to be destroyed.
Or perhaps, Cain tought them somthing about the "Horadric Order". In which they could use to fool us all into beleiving they are dead, when truly this was all part of there master plan. Now 20 years later they have come back with the ground work lain, and are ready to try and demolish us all, Once And For All ?......:confused:
Or maybe we only ever killed their corporeal form, and smashing the soul stones only prevented them from making an easy impact on this world, or perhaps it sent them back to hell, and, as Baal got the Worldstone corrupted, they're ultimate plan may had been accomplished and it was time to go home.
There should be a Too Long; Didn't Read version of that. This thread would have more responses, methinks
But your vision of the unseen events is pretty cool. They're all plausible, and the fact that Cain lived while everybody was already dead in Tristram has plagued many a fan. Why would Diablo, who masterminded pretty much everything in D1 and 2, leave such a dangerous Horadrim live?
Maybe he was needed to guide the heroes of D2. Perhaps Cain thought he did was right, but actually did everything according to Hell's plans.
The things Cain did were certainly helping Hell, but I don't know if Cain did it knowingly or not. We (the heroes) certainly didn't
Don't forget, that it is now confirmed that Adria the Witch is coming back in DIII. So not everyone in Tristram died.
As to why he wasn't killed; Maybe Cain was too strong to be killed by a bunch of pathetically weak Fallen and Goatmen. So instead, they just threw him in a cage. Maybe they were holding him there for a more powerful demon to take care of. But yeah, there are a lot of holes in the story that need to be explained. I sure hope Blizz doesn't just cop out and say, "Ignore the first 2 games, this is what actually happened".
Does Cain actually mention being interrogated by the wanderer? We don't know he even got any info from him, at least I don't remember it.
Also, in the ending of Diablo 1, the narrator tells the player that he was drawn to the east.
By Cain! xD Uhm... I mean... Cain was standing east of him and...
uhh... he...
...
...he wore a magical demon attracting ring...
Well u got to realize that Cain and the wanderer were friends and at the end it took time before the corruption really showed so for all u know he never really interrogated Cain. He could have just wanted to know more about things and be interested in what Cain knew and without Cain knowing that it was really Diablo he would have spilled everything openly because he loves spreading his stories. I really don't see Cain being evil and if u noticed the story line said the demons came after the wanderer left not while he was there. With all the speculation there are still so many answers but even more questions because of how seemingly open ended they left the story line in the game.
I also don't believe that the prime evils are completely dead either because technically if u think about it the soul stones held the souls of the prime evils and if u destroy them that just set them free from their cell and with the worldstone gone now they would be free to roam wherever they want without any bodies that need to be possessed. The storyline is so complex yet it is so riveting that it keeps u interested and wanting to know more about what can and or will happen.
This alone, however, is not justification to suggest that our trustly scholarly friend might be somehow involved with the forces of evil. The next point I'd like to make has us fast forwarding to the beginning events of Diablo 2. The heroes, in need of advice on how best to deal with the demons and tackle Andariel, make a magical trip to Tristram to rescue Cain. Here's the next problem I run into - the Horadrim were the group of guys that sought, battled and imprisoned the Three Prime Evils and left them to their solitary (well, somewhat solitary in Baal's case) confinement. If I was a demon and I came across one of the followers of the Horadrim, I'd tear the hell outta the guy. After all, they would be considered to be a living symbol, in Cain's case, the last living symbol, of the mockery of my masters. That'd make for a nice war trophy, wouldn't it? WHY DIDN'T THE DEMONS JUST KILL HIM OUTRIGHT? It would make sense to me that this would be the natural course of action for demons bent on slaughtering everything and everyone they come across. Cain even said so himself in Diablo 2 that Hell's actions always seem bent on destruction (I cannot remember the exact quote) so why did the demons not do so in this case? They left him to die in a cage, which, for anyone who has watched the movie Willow knows, is not always the surest bet that someone would die that way.
One final point I'd like to make and that is what Cain does during the events in Diablo 2 and that is - EXACTLY WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT DECKARD CAIN TO DO. He studies and more than likely documents everything. "What would he study" you would ask? The heroes he accompanied. And how they fought. Who they fought, what they fought, how to overcome who and what they fought, what things they ventured across, especially if it was of a magical origin, how quickly they adapted to new adversities, and probably the most important of all - he more than likely studied the aftermath of the Battle for Mount Arreat. Your answer for why the forces of Hell would keep the last living member of the Horadrim alive - furthered accumulation of knowledge.
Think of this, Hell is always looking for a new edge, a stronger power to wield and conquer all of creation. And, don't forget! Hell can adapt, too. Look what the Prime Evils did with the knowledge Izual gave them about the Soulstones. Then, look what that knowledge combined with Tal Rasha's power accomplished. What power is there in knowledge? A great deal of it. Who specializes in accumulated knowledge and proficient use of it? The Horadrim...or, at least, they used to. There's still one left, though, he's not the battle hardened mage warrior his forefathers were. Imagine this - Baal has Tal Rasha's powers and knowledge. Diablo learns that information from his older brother and takes it for his own. He then gains the accumulated knowledge from Cain and adds that to his list of powers. Diablo would then have - Diablo 1's hero's fighting prowess, Tal Rasha's magical prowess and knowledge, all of the information on what the Horadrim has and had ever done plus all of what the other human clans have and had ever done up to the beginning of the events of Diablo 3.
Now, whether Cain might be a sort of sleeper agent or if just in coming in contact with an item that contains demonic influence or energy, such as Lazarus' staff, allows the greater denizens of Hell to peer into one's mind is arguable to any extent. However, when Diablo possessed the hero that sought to slay him, he must have been aware of Cain's knowledge and the extent of how it could be used. After all, the hero of Diablo 1 used it to great extent while battling through the levels of the cathedral, and the labyrinth below it, in order to solve the mystery of what happened to Albrecht. A mystery that Cain was very much involved in, to include partially solving that mystery himself! My belief is that Diablo knows Cain's value is in his intellect and intends on, somehow, collecting it and using it against any other group of heroes that would, once again, attempt to stop him.
Your thoughts?
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
Walter Fredrick Morrison, creator of the Frisbee died at 90 in Utah
http://www.examiner.com/x-19632-Salt-Lake-City-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m2d12-Walter-Fredrick-Morrison-creator-of-the-Frisbee-died-at-90-in-Utah
I know, I saw that on CNN.com the other day. I wonder what his afterlife is like.
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
But your vision of the unseen events is pretty cool. They're all plausible, and the fact that Cain lived while everybody was already dead in Tristram has plagued many a fan. Why would Diablo, who masterminded pretty much everything in D1 and 2, leave such a dangerous Horadrim live?
Maybe he was needed to guide the heroes of D2. Perhaps Cain thought he did was right, but actually did everything according to Hell's plans.
The things Cain did were certainly helping Hell, but I don't know if Cain did it knowingly or not. We (the heroes) certainly didn't
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I am curious how Diablo entered the tomb and closed it, while we made a hole in the wall with the Staff.
If he needed him alive, why didn't he take him with him? Well, maybe Marius wouldn't want to be with him if he took Cain.
Join the chat!
Does Cain actually mention being interrogated by the wanderer? We don't know he even got any info from him, at least I don't remember it.
Also, in the ending of Diablo 1, the narrator tells the player that he was drawn to the east.
I would love to see Diablo summoning his minions to create a wall
True dat, and dying a slow death is pretty evil.
He probably knew that there would be something guarding Baal, perhaps he knew Tyrael would be there. Anyway, I think he took Marius with him as a precaution. He built a trusting relation with the guy so he would free Tal Rasha/Baal. Also, he probably sensed that Marius was pretty weak-minded so he didn't screw up their plans.
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That is a really good point you raise there. I don't have a real explanation, except that Hell would find it awesome if mankind doomed themselves. Or perhaps he knew that Tyrael wouldn't kill a human.
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‘I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL WE ALL HAVE AIDS!’—The importance of calling them ‘mercenaries.’
I think that this would be the most rational explanation. But nice thread man was a fun and interesting read.
As was said during Blizzcon '08:
"Everything has gone as Hell has planned it."
It's a brilliant assault they planned in Diablo 2. In Kurast they split paths: Diablo into Hell and Baal towards Marius and Mt. Arreat. The hero had to choose between the paths to take and chose to prevent a Prime Evil to rule Hell again. This gave Baal a free path to Mt. Arreat, being able to corrupt the Worldstone.
Join the chat!
Ok, I'm drawing blanks here.
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Or perhaps, Cain tought them somthing about the "Horadric Order". In which they could use to fool us all into beleiving they are dead, when truly this was all part of there master plan. Now 20 years later they have come back with the ground work lain, and are ready to try and demolish us all, Once And For All ?......:confused:
Don't forget, that it is now confirmed that Adria the Witch is coming back in DIII. So not everyone in Tristram died.
As to why he wasn't killed; Maybe Cain was too strong to be killed by a bunch of pathetically weak Fallen and Goatmen. So instead, they just threw him in a cage. Maybe they were holding him there for a more powerful demon to take care of. But yeah, there are a lot of holes in the story that need to be explained. I sure hope Blizz doesn't just cop out and say, "Ignore the first 2 games, this is what actually happened".
Well u got to realize that Cain and the wanderer were friends and at the end it took time before the corruption really showed so for all u know he never really interrogated Cain. He could have just wanted to know more about things and be interested in what Cain knew and without Cain knowing that it was really Diablo he would have spilled everything openly because he loves spreading his stories. I really don't see Cain being evil and if u noticed the story line said the demons came after the wanderer left not while he was there. With all the speculation there are still so many answers but even more questions because of how seemingly open ended they left the story line in the game.
I also don't believe that the prime evils are completely dead either because technically if u think about it the soul stones held the souls of the prime evils and if u destroy them that just set them free from their cell and with the worldstone gone now they would be free to roam wherever they want without any bodies that need to be possessed. The storyline is so complex yet it is so riveting that it keeps u interested and wanting to know more about what can and or will happen.