Did you notice that the only playable characters with a beard in D3 are the male monk and the male barbarian?
Did you know that you can make over 9,000 characters, all with beards, in Skyrim?
Did you notice that Skyrim is, quite honestly, one of the games that I would actually compare to some sort of Viking setting? I mean, think about it; there is definitely a lot of things in this game that can be attributed to Vikings.
Nords = Norse
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
i can't remember a game other than Half-Life 2 (and maybe The Witcher) where the faces looked good. Neither Morrowing nor Oblivion looked that good on that part. What i liked in Oblivion and it seems is even better in Skyrim are the landscapes.
To be honest, weapons like crossbows and spears are not a gamebreaker for me. I've never preferred them over traditional bows or the typical sword/shield combo.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
*shrug* I never used them, but they do add some variety to all the imbeciles I murder. Someone will add them with a mod within a month or two of release, anyway.
i can't remember a game other than Half-Life 2 (and maybe The Witcher) where the faces looked good. Neither Morrowing nor Oblivion looked that good on that part. What i liked in Oblivion and it seems is even better in Skyrim are the landscapes.
Mass Effect 2 had some fairly well done faces. Though the scale is completely different, TES games must have random access facial features where more tightly scripted games can have hand designed faces. And I agree, the open world of Oblivion can STILL look pretty damn good for a five year old game.
I'm honestly afraid of what I'll do if D3 miraculously is released this fall. My two favorite game series coinciding...goodbye 4.0
Since the new info on the game I think it will be enjoyable.
I enjoyed Oblivion and Morrowind but both games had problems. Oblivion was the terrible leveling system; that basically broke the game for me; and morrowind had really uninspiring combat however was saved by the awesome dialogue and scope of the game.
I want them to really go back to Morrowind's far more *open* style. I miss how you could become a warewolf and how there were literally so many hidden quests in each area.
I also miss the potion aspect of Morrowind; crafting potions in Oblivion felt a bit flat.
I really hope they consider the critiques of Oblivion carefully and hopefully make a less *console-a-fied* game this time.
I totally agree with you, nut don't blame it on console's crowd!
Nowdays the most hardcore releases in the game industry are PS3 releases, by far.
Imo the biggest problem is that the RPG tradition is loosing it's appeal in the western side of the planet. Look at bw recent works... Mass Effect is a great game, but not in terms of game mechanic depth. All western rpgs are overly simplified basically because the market is flooded of FPS lovers at the demand side and even RPG must leave it's most traditional features behind...
To me, none of the problems of Oblivion had anything to do with the game features, or lackthereof. It had more to do with just the story itself and how your character was only seemingly an important part of the story, but really you were just moving from point A to point B watching events unfold before you.
In Morrowind, you're like the reincarnation of Nerevar who is supposed to confront Dagoth Ur on Red Mountain. That seems like an important role in the story. But in Oblivion, the Emperor had a vague dream about you and you are supposed to find his secret heir who in the end will do all the awesome boss fighting stuff.
I was able to forgive a lot of the stale gameplay in Morrowind just because the story was so awesome. But Oblivion was trying just a bit too hard to reach a wider audience I think and seemed to assume that the story should be far less complex as well. I know I'm making that assumption there, but really, the story was hardly engrossing compared to Morrowind's. I think they could have developed the story concept a little better and if casual gamers wanted to just ignore the story (which a lot of people do in games it seems), then they could.
I don't know. I thought the gameplay of Oblivion was fun enough, minus the scaled leveling.
That's probably why the quests i enjoyed most in Oblivion were:
1. The Dark Brotherhood chain.
2. The Shivering Isles chain.
3. The Thieves Guild chain.
All three made you feel important. Maybe not like in Morrowind, but still important.
I hope Bethesda remembers the feedback from those quests (Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild were the ones that led them to design Shivering Isles as they did) for Skyrim. The Dragonborn is definitely an important and interesting role to play. I'm very optimistic about the results, but i guess we'll see when the game is out.
The dark brotherhood quest was good. I also enjoyed the thieves guild ones. Yeah Oblivion, much like Fallout 3, the main story wasn't the strong points. It was the side quests.
I don't get this whole thing with spears and crossbows. I mean, in my opinion, they're just weapons that don't add more depth than swords and normal draw-bows do. It just seems like fluff in a game that, otherwise, has so much going for it that crossbows and spears would go unnoticed to those who don't necessarily care.
I mean, really, they're just weapons. I know that I don't "get it" and, while Equinox said that they're cutting corners, I don't think that's the case; if there was a place for spears and crossbows in Skyrim, they would be in there.
Really, it's not that big of a deal.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I don't get this whole thing with spears and crossbows. I mean, in my opinion, they're just weapons that don't add more depth than swords and normal draw-bows do.
I really don't know how to reply to this.
It's like why give people different locations to go to or more than 1 quest NPC or... seriously I don't know what you're smoking if you don't see how this adds depth, I really don't.
in a game that, otherwise, has so much going for it
The game honestly doesn't have that much going for it, at least, Oblivion definitely didn't. The game suffers very strongly in the customization department as it is. The limitations on character building due to auto-leveling and the overall leveling system are staggering. And you can't even explore properly because the game doesn't come with a map.
Risen had Bows, Swords, Axes, Spears/Staves (with a separate combat system) and crossbows (again separate from bows). Despite the fact that Risen was developed in a down-time for Piranha and is basically a beta test. It's a freaking teenish game for a bit of money yet they still took the time to implement staves combat in there. It's seriously not that hard. There's no excuse, none, null, zero, for a huge wealthy company like Bethesda to not implement more than 2 systems.
And that's what Oblivion had.
2 combat systems for melee.
Slash, slash with shield. Swords don't even thrust. Axes and maces are not really different and are in the same category. Swords and hammers have same animation trajectory. I'm sorry you don't notice this but maybe you should play more games with melee combat before saying Oblivion offers anything.
I want slash, thrust, shield, dagger, long draw systems (heavy weapons), yes I do. Granted, Oblivion didn't even have proper dodging, what am I even talking about...
The reason Bethesda doesn't want to implement spears is because they don't want to devise proper combat systems, and spears require a bit more than your usual sword and board, which is WHY I like spears. I was hoping in TES V they would improve their combat system, but their fear of complex weapons like spears says otherwise IMO.
If you're going to make real time combat do it properly or come back to stats and percentages and don't pretend it's an MMORPGFPS please. I believe everyone was happy with Morrowind's system so I don't see why try to expand combat if you're not going to expand it really but keep it the same thing with illusion of motor skills involved BUT CUT CONTENT FROM THE GAME.
that crossbows and spears would go unnoticed to those who don't necessarily care.
Again, this statement doesn't really have any value. These games, RPG's, strive on things like variety and customization. Even when you don't use a particular thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. For instance, I'm entirely indifferent to magic, doesn't mean I don't like having it in the game.
if there was a place for spears and crossbows in Skyrim, they would be in there.
Spears were present in, correct me if I'm wrong, Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind. Please explain to me where did a whole weapon category magically disappear or what kind of ban removes them from Cyrrodill and w/e Skyrim is set in. At least they should offer some contraband spears or something.
Seriously, spear is a classic weapon of medieval times and it's a classic weapon for the TES series, any attempt to excuse the absence of a pretty mundane weapon is just dumb. Imagine if the game didn't have swords. It's about as stupid, except spears are an older and more fundamental weapon than even swords, especially in a universe without mounted combat.
I think people like myself can decide for ourselves whether it's a big deal or not.
Saying it's not a big deal just because it's not a big deal for YOU is just plain arrogant. I am aware of quite a few people who loved spears in Morrowind or in general and were very disappointed Oblivion didn't have them. Not have an essential weapon 2 games in a row? Really Bethesda? Really? You are THAT lazy?
The dark brotherhood quest was good. I also enjoyed the thieves guild ones. Yeah Oblivion, much like Fallout 3, the main story wasn't the strong points. It was the side quests.
Mm hm. I think most people felt Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild quests were better than the main story line.
Seriously it bugs me about the main storyline how you just go to different people, watch them talk about stuff that doesn't really involve you, and then they tell you to go to a different place to tell someone else something where you'll watch more people talk. And it's all really about the emperor's son, not you.
Fallout 3 had similar problems. And I can't get over how similar the endings of Oblivion and F3 were. I know I've talked about it here before. You literally just walk from point A to point B where all this fighting is going on around you, and you see the main boss, in Oblivion it was that Mehrunes Dagon and in Fallout it was the Vertibirds, and in both games, a big powerful NPC character fights the boss while you just sit there and watch. In Oblivion that guy turns into Akatosh or whatever and you just watch....and in F3 there is that huge robot that does all the work and yet again you're really just watching. You don't have to fire your weapon once in that entire sequence. Even without the robot you'd still have all those immortal Brotherhood of Steel guys doing all the work.
And I agree with Siaynoq that the "courier" quests (which is almost all of them) are total bullshit. Completely stale.
And replies to all of Equinox's points:
1) If you find depth in the multitude of combat systems, then it will certainly add depth for you. I find depth in other places (like environments, moods, ect), and I love winter environments, so I think that I can immerse myself quite fine with just the environment.
2) In my opinion, the game does have a lot going for it. Adding on to what Siaynoq said, the quest now involves you to stop a band of dragons from completely destroying an entire region of Tamriel. That is much more involving than the main quest in Oblivion. Also, the way the economy works in Skyrim and your ability to do a lot more things that add to the feeling of "you're a part of this world and not just a spectator to the tumultuous events occurring around you" certainly help with the immersion involved in the game. I say that's a step up from the poor job that Oblivion did, in that respect. Also, while the game doesn't have spears or crossbows, it does have dragon words that add a completely different combat system altogether; stringing together words to make spells.
3) Last time I heard, they are attempting to make the leveling system more like Fallout 3 was. That's just what I heard.
4) As far as customization goes, there is also more than Oblivion had; the perks (a la Fallout 3), the removal of having to choose your class in the beginning of the game (which was a big problem that I had with Oblivion), their attempt to more "streamline" your resulting character into what you use the most (using a sword more makes you a better swordsman), and just the removal of the fluff skills like mercantile and making leveling up simpler by removing the whole "you have to use these skills to gain levels;" that's what I hated most about Oblivion, you were forced to choose skills and, to gain levels, you were forced to use them. That's a lousy system and I feel that the removal of that system will help make my experience more enjoyable rather than a math equation.
5) Nobody knows how crossbows or spears would work in the game, so it's kinda, I don't know, arrogant to say that they're lazy because they aren't including either in the game. For one, they probably have a lore reason for not including crossbows in the ES world. As for the presence of spears in Morrowind and their absence in later games, I don't know. I never noticed it and I never necessarily heard my friends complain about their absence.
6) I should've learned from the last time I said something "wasn't a big deal;" if I remember correctly, the whole thing with the D3 cursor got people all riled up because their need for nostalgic reminders of D1 and D2. "How can we have D3 without a mouse cursor that is a hand?!"
That's a lot like this conversation is; perhaps this is where I lose grasp of the importance of these little things that make a game what it is. Again, I don't care about crossbows and spears and whether or not they're in the game because I'll probably never use them. If I played D3 with a hand cursor, I would never notice it, but the people who appreciate those little things will certainly get a jolly from that. I think I just tend to look at the bigger picture; it doesn't take a lot to impress me. The reason why I still play Oblivion is because I like it (for some odd reason that I can't put my hand on). It's almost why I still play Diablo 1; I am just drawn to the game and, in that sense, I think that's where the true worth of a game comes in. If a game has the ability to draw me in that much, much to the point where it's hard for me to ignore it.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I was talking about Oblivion, since I don't know what content Skyrim has. It's kind of pointless to suppose a game will have certain content when you haven't played it.
Also, pretty much anything Oblivion/Skyrim did or tried to implement has already been done in Daggerfall. I am not sure why I should be excited about them uncutting the corners they cut when everything aside from graphics was superior in a game a decade ago.
Also, while the game doesn't have spears or crossbows, it does have dragon words that add a completely different combat system altogether; stringing together words to make spells.
Which doesn't in any way replace the combat system you're going to be stuck with 90% of the game.
3) Last time I heard, they are attempting to make the leveling system more like Fallout 3 was. That's just what I heard.
My friend plays Fallout 3. Apparently, there's a rifle in the game that you can find at the beginning that can kill everything. *rolls eyes* Overall, it didn't strike me as a well balanced game at all.
their attempt to more "streamline" your resulting character into what you use the most (using a sword more makes you a better swordsman), and just the removal of the fluff skills like mercantile and making leveling up simpler by removing the whole "you have to use these skills to gain levels;"
That will probably help. Leveling because you wanted to do some alchemy was very dumb.
5) Nobody knows how crossbows or spears would work in the game, so it's kinda, I don't know, arrogant to say that they're lazy because they aren't including either in the game.
I don't know what you mean by that.
It's the responsibility of the developers to devise an engine and combat system that can support spears and crossbows. That's specifically my issue with this - to me this is a warning of another bad combat system.
For one, they probably have a lore reason for not including crossbows in the ES world. As for the presence of spears in Morrowind and their absence in later games, I don't know. I never noticed it and I never necessarily heard my friends complain about their absence.
There is no lore reason.
Again you're going "since I don't care neither should you". You don't have to care. I do. And I don't care that you don't care.
Then understand that some of us have higher standards. There are people who like Transformers, doesn't prevent it from being garbage of a movie.
Little, dunno, customization and combat are not little to me, never were. I'm not saying I won't play the game, but this makes me less excited for Skyrim as I was hoping the would leave behind their Oblivion mistakes and make a game that doesn't feel like a half-baked big budget product.
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I find myself wanting to play it more than D3 lately.
Did you know that you can make over 9,000 characters, all with beards, in Skyrim?
Did you notice that Skyrim is, quite honestly, one of the games that I would actually compare to some sort of Viking setting? I mean, think about it; there is definitely a lot of things in this game that can be attributed to Vikings.
Nords = Norse
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Join the chat!
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Mass Effect 2 had some fairly well done faces. Though the scale is completely different, TES games must have random access facial features where more tightly scripted games can have hand designed faces. And I agree, the open world of Oblivion can STILL look pretty damn good for a five year old game.
I'm honestly afraid of what I'll do if D3 miraculously is released this fall. My two favorite game series coinciding...goodbye 4.0
I totally agree with you, nut don't blame it on console's crowd!
Nowdays the most hardcore releases in the game industry are PS3 releases, by far.
Imo the biggest problem is that the RPG tradition is loosing it's appeal in the western side of the planet. Look at bw recent works... Mass Effect is a great game, but not in terms of game mechanic depth. All western rpgs are overly simplified basically because the market is flooded of FPS lovers at the demand side and even RPG must leave it's most traditional features behind...
Imo it's a sad decade for western rpgs...
In Morrowind, you're like the reincarnation of Nerevar who is supposed to confront Dagoth Ur on Red Mountain. That seems like an important role in the story. But in Oblivion, the Emperor had a vague dream about you and you are supposed to find his secret heir who in the end will do all the awesome boss fighting stuff.
I was able to forgive a lot of the stale gameplay in Morrowind just because the story was so awesome. But Oblivion was trying just a bit too hard to reach a wider audience I think and seemed to assume that the story should be far less complex as well. I know I'm making that assumption there, but really, the story was hardly engrossing compared to Morrowind's. I think they could have developed the story concept a little better and if casual gamers wanted to just ignore the story (which a lot of people do in games it seems), then they could.
I don't know. I thought the gameplay of Oblivion was fun enough, minus the scaled leveling.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
1. The Dark Brotherhood chain.
2. The Shivering Isles chain.
3. The Thieves Guild chain.
All three made you feel important. Maybe not like in Morrowind, but still important.
I hope Bethesda remembers the feedback from those quests (Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild were the ones that led them to design Shivering Isles as they did) for Skyrim. The Dragonborn is definitely an important and interesting role to play. I'm very optimistic about the results, but i guess we'll see when the game is out.
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Wise ElderI mean, really, they're just weapons. I know that I don't "get it" and, while Equinox said that they're cutting corners, I don't think that's the case; if there was a place for spears and crossbows in Skyrim, they would be in there.
Really, it's not that big of a deal.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
It's like why give people different locations to go to or more than 1 quest NPC or... seriously I don't know what you're smoking if you don't see how this adds depth, I really don't.
Video games, by definition, ARE fluff, so saying it's fluff in fluff is kinda wut?
The game honestly doesn't have that much going for it, at least, Oblivion definitely didn't. The game suffers very strongly in the customization department as it is. The limitations on character building due to auto-leveling and the overall leveling system are staggering. And you can't even explore properly because the game doesn't come with a map.
Risen had Bows, Swords, Axes, Spears/Staves (with a separate combat system) and crossbows (again separate from bows). Despite the fact that Risen was developed in a down-time for Piranha and is basically a beta test. It's a freaking teenish game for a bit of money yet they still took the time to implement staves combat in there. It's seriously not that hard. There's no excuse, none, null, zero, for a huge wealthy company like Bethesda to not implement more than 2 systems.
And that's what Oblivion had.
2 combat systems for melee.
Slash, slash with shield. Swords don't even thrust. Axes and maces are not really different and are in the same category. Swords and hammers have same animation trajectory. I'm sorry you don't notice this but maybe you should play more games with melee combat before saying Oblivion offers anything.
I want slash, thrust, shield, dagger, long draw systems (heavy weapons), yes I do. Granted, Oblivion didn't even have proper dodging, what am I even talking about...
The reason Bethesda doesn't want to implement spears is because they don't want to devise proper combat systems, and spears require a bit more than your usual sword and board, which is WHY I like spears. I was hoping in TES V they would improve their combat system, but their fear of complex weapons like spears says otherwise IMO.
If you're going to make real time combat do it properly or come back to stats and percentages and don't pretend it's an MMORPGFPS please. I believe everyone was happy with Morrowind's system so I don't see why try to expand combat if you're not going to expand it really but keep it the same thing with illusion of motor skills involved BUT CUT CONTENT FROM THE GAME.
Again, this statement doesn't really have any value. These games, RPG's, strive on things like variety and customization. Even when you don't use a particular thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. For instance, I'm entirely indifferent to magic, doesn't mean I don't like having it in the game.
Spears were present in, correct me if I'm wrong, Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind. Please explain to me where did a whole weapon category magically disappear or what kind of ban removes them from Cyrrodill and w/e Skyrim is set in. At least they should offer some contraband spears or something.
Seriously, spear is a classic weapon of medieval times and it's a classic weapon for the TES series, any attempt to excuse the absence of a pretty mundane weapon is just dumb. Imagine if the game didn't have swords. It's about as stupid, except spears are an older and more fundamental weapon than even swords, especially in a universe without mounted combat.
I think people like myself can decide for ourselves whether it's a big deal or not.
Saying it's not a big deal just because it's not a big deal for YOU is just plain arrogant. I am aware of quite a few people who loved spears in Morrowind or in general and were very disappointed Oblivion didn't have them. Not have an essential weapon 2 games in a row? Really Bethesda? Really? You are THAT lazy?
Seriously it bugs me about the main storyline how you just go to different people, watch them talk about stuff that doesn't really involve you, and then they tell you to go to a different place to tell someone else something where you'll watch more people talk. And it's all really about the emperor's son, not you.
Fallout 3 had similar problems. And I can't get over how similar the endings of Oblivion and F3 were. I know I've talked about it here before. You literally just walk from point A to point B where all this fighting is going on around you, and you see the main boss, in Oblivion it was that Mehrunes Dagon and in Fallout it was the Vertibirds, and in both games, a big powerful NPC character fights the boss while you just sit there and watch. In Oblivion that guy turns into Akatosh or whatever and you just watch....and in F3 there is that huge robot that does all the work and yet again you're really just watching. You don't have to fire your weapon once in that entire sequence. Even without the robot you'd still have all those immortal Brotherhood of Steel guys doing all the work.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
And I agree with Siaynoq that the "courier" quests (which is almost all of them) are total bullshit. Completely stale.
And replies to all of Equinox's points:
1) If you find depth in the multitude of combat systems, then it will certainly add depth for you. I find depth in other places (like environments, moods, ect), and I love winter environments, so I think that I can immerse myself quite fine with just the environment.
2) In my opinion, the game does have a lot going for it. Adding on to what Siaynoq said, the quest now involves you to stop a band of dragons from completely destroying an entire region of Tamriel. That is much more involving than the main quest in Oblivion. Also, the way the economy works in Skyrim and your ability to do a lot more things that add to the feeling of "you're a part of this world and not just a spectator to the tumultuous events occurring around you" certainly help with the immersion involved in the game. I say that's a step up from the poor job that Oblivion did, in that respect. Also, while the game doesn't have spears or crossbows, it does have dragon words that add a completely different combat system altogether; stringing together words to make spells.
3) Last time I heard, they are attempting to make the leveling system more like Fallout 3 was. That's just what I heard.
4) As far as customization goes, there is also more than Oblivion had; the perks (a la Fallout 3), the removal of having to choose your class in the beginning of the game (which was a big problem that I had with Oblivion), their attempt to more "streamline" your resulting character into what you use the most (using a sword more makes you a better swordsman), and just the removal of the fluff skills like mercantile and making leveling up simpler by removing the whole "you have to use these skills to gain levels;" that's what I hated most about Oblivion, you were forced to choose skills and, to gain levels, you were forced to use them. That's a lousy system and I feel that the removal of that system will help make my experience more enjoyable rather than a math equation.
5) Nobody knows how crossbows or spears would work in the game, so it's kinda, I don't know, arrogant to say that they're lazy because they aren't including either in the game. For one, they probably have a lore reason for not including crossbows in the ES world. As for the presence of spears in Morrowind and their absence in later games, I don't know. I never noticed it and I never necessarily heard my friends complain about their absence.
6) I should've learned from the last time I said something "wasn't a big deal;" if I remember correctly, the whole thing with the D3 cursor got people all riled up because their need for nostalgic reminders of D1 and D2. "How can we have D3 without a mouse cursor that is a hand?!"
That's a lot like this conversation is; perhaps this is where I lose grasp of the importance of these little things that make a game what it is. Again, I don't care about crossbows and spears and whether or not they're in the game because I'll probably never use them. If I played D3 with a hand cursor, I would never notice it, but the people who appreciate those little things will certainly get a jolly from that. I think I just tend to look at the bigger picture; it doesn't take a lot to impress me. The reason why I still play Oblivion is because I like it (for some odd reason that I can't put my hand on). It's almost why I still play Diablo 1; I am just drawn to the game and, in that sense, I think that's where the true worth of a game comes in. If a game has the ability to draw me in that much, much to the point where it's hard for me to ignore it.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
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Wise ElderAlso, pretty much anything Oblivion/Skyrim did or tried to implement has already been done in Daggerfall. I am not sure why I should be excited about them uncutting the corners they cut when everything aside from graphics was superior in a game a decade ago.
Which doesn't in any way replace the combat system you're going to be stuck with 90% of the game.
My friend plays Fallout 3. Apparently, there's a rifle in the game that you can find at the beginning that can kill everything. *rolls eyes* Overall, it didn't strike me as a well balanced game at all.
That will probably help. Leveling because you wanted to do some alchemy was very dumb.
I'd put it you were forced to level if you wanted to train certain skills.
I don't know what you mean by that.
It's the responsibility of the developers to devise an engine and combat system that can support spears and crossbows. That's specifically my issue with this - to me this is a warning of another bad combat system.
There is no lore reason.
Again you're going "since I don't care neither should you". You don't have to care. I do. And I don't care that you don't care.
Then understand that some of us have higher standards. There are people who like Transformers, doesn't prevent it from being garbage of a movie.
Little, dunno, customization and combat are not little to me, never were. I'm not saying I won't play the game, but this makes me less excited for Skyrim as I was hoping the would leave behind their Oblivion mistakes and make a game that doesn't feel like a half-baked big budget product.