A lot of the people complaining about not having competitive pvp are "competitive gamers".
To me, a competitive gamer is a person who cannot play a game unless it involves competing with others. I know a guy like this. This person literally doesn't enjoy ANY game, unless it is "winning" at something with a defined score and opponent to defeat. The term win does not include beating a game. I'm talking about the guy who only plays games with a singular goal of winning.
Opinion: These people completely miss the point of video games in the first place. They garner some misplaced e-peen pride from winning in-game, while completely failing or avoiding their lives. They crave this sense of self worth via a video game. If there is no such goal, the game is useless to them.
Because of this, they do not actually enjoy the game. They take no time to appreciate the game itself. They take pleasure in one thing and one thing only. Winning.
These people are not gamers by my personal standards. They're just people with unfulfilled dreams that they make up for, via winning in video games.
From personal experience: They are rude, with no sense of sportsmanship(aka don't say gg when they lose and boast and gloat and antagonize when they win), and very trolly.
However, I'm not saying that everyone who wants PVP is among this crowd. But they are certainly a part of the driving force behind it.
Edit: Also, there is NOTHING wrong with competing via video games. I'm not saying that. I certainly have my own fair share of e-peen when it comes to some games like Halo and Wc3(sc2? ehh not so much). And we all know that competing is incredibly fun. It's the driving force behind online gaming which is so crucial to our ever evolving community of gamers. However, if competing is your only enjoyment..well..you read the thread.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
i think this is true of every type of competition. people just want to win
i dont think they miss the point of a game, since a game is just a game, and you take what you want out of it, regardless of the designers intentions.
but those that start to neglect real life (whats this? :P) and become entrenched in the virtual world tend to become a bit unruly and rough, depending on the game. in the the end it just amounts to pride and entitlement. but this would only manifest in immature people with preexisting psychological troubles.
whether we like it or not, competition is a beautiful thing. its all about the metaphors, too bad gaming isnt respected enough for people to see them. i guess
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
I agree. Competition is awesome and I'm all for it. And I'll admit, I am definitely a little bummed we don't have an e-sport type foundation for D3.
But, my point is that when you do take out that e-sport aspect and certain individuals lose all interest in the game, it means they never understood or really enjoyed the game in the first place.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I agree. Competition is awesome and I'm all for it. And I'll admit, I am definitely a little bummed we don't have an e-sport type foundation for D3.
But, my point is that when you do take out that e-sport aspect and certain individuals lose all interest in the game, it means they never understood or really enjoyed the game in the first place.
they must have enjoyed the pvp aspect of it, and that takes some understanding to be good at it.
most of these people come from diablo2, which ended up with an amazing pvp community that was responsible for the games longevity. and with such a large and faithful community to get shafted by D3, its completely understandable to me why they are disappointed.
just to recapitulate my point, a gamer takes what they want from a game. after all, we gamers do argue that games are an art form, and like any art, its subject to personal interpretation. to argue otherwise would be setting back the gaming strides we have championed since it garnered a wide media presence.
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
I've always found anyone feeding their own e-peen, by any means, to be extremely pathetic.
Keep in mind pride and e-peen is different.
Playing just to win is a flawed mentality since you can't win all of the time and you may as well be playing pong at that point, you're overlooking the game.
@apples-Right, games are art. However, those people are not playing the game, for the sake of the game. It could be a white screen with pong rectangles and a score sheet at the bottom of the screen and they would still play it. It has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with winning.
and, D2 pvp blew chunks. It was so bad I don't even consider it pvp.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I started replying by stating the current PvP system IS competitive, and I'm not sure why people feel that it is not. That may be more appropriate for a core PVP thread.
But to stay on subject...
I agree with your post. The Diablo franchise isn't competitive in nature, but rather cooperative PvE. I find it surprising how emotional people get about any 'lack of competition' in this game.
Without diving into a lecture-type post, I do want to add that this might be the new gaming community. EVERY game seems competitive, and the most popular games (in any genre) always have a competitive core. Again, as you stated, competitive games are awesome. Although it might be lost these days, there is a time and place for story, depth, and adventure without the motive of 'victory'. I'd like to think that's why Blizzard kept single-player mode an option.
If you want my cynical response...kids are brats, spoiled and they need discipline. KICKER: Or, maybe they don't, its just that kids play Mature rated games these days and the Mature gamers get irritated at their natural behavior.
I think some of the extreme hurf-blurf we've seen about D3 pvp shows us EXACTLY why blizzard went out of their way to avoid generating another e-sport or supporting laddered pvp.
I'm not saying every player with a primary interest in pvp is this way, but the competition pvp crowd generates more useless opinion-driven whine posts i've ever seen from any other sub-group.
@DKR-Well, you know what I mean, it's not competitive in the sense that it has a structured win loss setup and it is specifically maintaining unbalance to prevent structured e-sport.
@Proletaria- I concur
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
@apples-Right, games are art. However, those people are not playing the game, for the sake of the game. It could be a white screen with pong rectangles and a score sheet at the bottom of the screen and they would still play it. It has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with winning.
and, D2 pvp blew chunks. It was so bad I don't even consider it pvp.
dedicated pvpers actually have some of the best understanding of the games they play, and to get that, they play the game. it doesnt make sense to play just as a designers intended it to be played and it makes it sound boring (final fantasy proves me otherwise but...tangents).
and here we encounter my second issue with esports or w/e u want to call it. it just doesnt have that sense of respect as any other sport. whether thats fair or not, is up to your opinions. example: kobe bryant is ultracompetative, and sometimes most times hes a dickhead. but at least we can say that kobe is a winner, a respected athlete, and a good role model when it comes to sports (we always point to his dedication to basketball); this same dedication doesnt translate to esports (or w/e) for some obvious and not-so-obvious reasons. without going to far, im sure you can think of most those reasons.
and i find most people that bash on D2pvp wernt very good at it, or didnt understand the mechanics that well ive tried other online pvp games, but i still prefer d2 pvp to them.
edit: most of those hyperactive, rude kids are not the picture of a good pvp environment.
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Agreed, Although I enjoy winning in CoD and Halo or Gears, and SC2, My priorities in a game is always to play through it understand the structure of the game, the story and it's drive or focus, Then enjoy it. Winning is part of the enjoyment i get, but it is never and never will be a necessity to gaming, and if someone thinks that is the point of gaming they really truly are sadly mistaken. Games are intended to be fun escapes, not competitive end all be all sports.
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
@apples-Right, games are art. However, those people are not playing the game, for the sake of the game. It could be a white screen with pong rectangles and a score sheet at the bottom of the screen and they would still play it. It has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with winning.
and, D2 pvp blew chunks. It was so bad I don't even consider it pvp.
dedicated pvpers actually have some of the best understanding of the games they play, and to get that, they play the game. it doesnt make sense to play just as a designers intended it to be played and it makes it sound boring (final fantasy proves me otherwise but...tangents).
and here we encounter my second issue with esports or w/e u want to call it. it just doesnt have that sense of respect as any other sport. whether thats fair or not, is up to your opinions. example: kobe bryant is ultracompetative, and sometimes most times hes a dickhead. but at least we can say that kobe is a winner, a respected athlete, and a good role model when it comes to sports (we always point to his dedication to basketball); this same dedication doesnt translate to esports (or w/e) for some obvious and not-so-obvious reasons. without going to far, im sure you can think of most those reasons.
and i find most people that bash on D2pvp wernt very good at it, or didnt understand the mechanics that well ive tried other online pvp games, but i still prefer d2 pvp to them.
edit: most of those hyperactive, rude kids are not the picture of a good pvp environment.
What exactly are dedicated pvpers? Are they people who only play competitive games? If so, they fit into my definition of people who misunderstand what the game is and see only a means to increase e-peen.
Also, your argument for the dedicated pvpers really knowing the game doesn't hold much weight with me. I played wc3 very competitively and sc2 to a fair extent as well. In both games, you can ignore a very large portion of the game and compete at an intense level without having any handicap at all. In said games, you need to know a lot of numbers, strategies and map layouts. None of that requires any real appreciation or smelling of the roses, if you will.
The people that I'm talking about are the ones who get these games with pvp aspects and completely skip the campaign content just so that they can go win.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I whole heartily agree with you Umpa! But the next thought that comes to mind is maybe I might be biased on my preferred genre of games...?
RPGs may have other game modes in which player can compete between one another, but generally, RPGs are story driven, long extensive experiences. They are all about smelling the roses, especially the Elder Scrolls series, IMO.
I'd say games nowadays are more about MORE MORE MORE NOW NOW NOW!!! Lets fight! I want to beat you! win!!!
The youth has grown up with Tigerblood in their systems and its all about winning. Unfortunately, they end up being trolls themselves.
As you said, Pvp or competition in general, is definitely a good thing and should be a part of all games. I just think a select group/demographic of people take that to an unnecessary level.
What I'm taking from your post is that a lot of people play to win, not to play to play. I too would like to see people 'slow down' and enjoy the experience a game brings....however you want to take that.
What I was trying to say earlier, was that the people complaining there is no competitive PvP in D3 are wrong IMO. Competition seems facilitated and encourage from what I've read/seen.
dedicated pvpers actually have some of the best understanding of the games they play, and to get that, they play the game.
They would like to think so at least.
i would argue that they have more understanding of the game than casual players. sure, they might not enjoy the story, or the setting, that type of thing, but as far as game mechanics go, they sure do know a lot
all because someone doesnt play for the story/lore doesnt make them immature and looking to increase e-peen or w/e the fck it is. some people are just idiots, others look to have fun by building good characters or learning new skills.
from the outside looking in, its hard to understand the appeal. i always questioned why someone can only make 1 character or play 1 class and become the best at it; i always grow bored and need to try something else.
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
I am extremely competitive in pretty much everything I do, be it studying for a hard test at university (which I sadly already finished), playing Mario Party with my girlfriend and our casual gaming friends, playing Mortal Kombat 9 against my friends who are more dedicated gamers, racing at the local Indoor Kart, or betting 50 bucks in a "casual" texas hold'em Poker match. I enjoy understanding what makes someone good in any specific activity, and improving myself. If that leads to winning, that's fine.
That doesn't mean at all I have "unfulfilled dreams" or that I can't achieve anything in real life, it's just my personality. This theory is plain dumb, and so is assuming everyone with a given opinion has 15 years old and want to show their e-peen to their friends or online.
I know the difference between having a good time casually, and having a good time competitively. It's one thing laughing from dying like an idiot while playing New Super Mario Bros Wii with more casual gaming friends and not blame them when we can't finish a stage, and it's a whole other thing playing a game like Heroes of Newerth, with a lot more competition in it, with us usually screaming at each other because we all want to win - and I love both activities.
Enjoying a game is different for everyone, stating what's the "correct way" to do it is plain bullshit. I personally love Terraria, but I know people who hate it because "the graphics suck", to each his own. I hated Shift 2 Unleashed even though it has very good graphics/sound.
Competitive PvP adds to the game, and doesn't detract anything from it. If people want a "casual" experience, they can play custom games, like I do with some of my friends at SC2 every now and then. If we want a more "competitive" approach, we go to ladder. What's the issue with D3 having both?
We all know the reason they don't want competitive PvP: they don't want to balance it, not even see people complaining on the forums. It's ok, I'm fine with it, but let's not jump to conclusions about "most people" because of a couple trolls.
Btw, yes I did read this:
However, I'm not saying that everyone who wants PVP is among this crowd. But they are certainly a part of the driving force behind it.
I've never been a competitive gamer, but I know people who are and, in my opinion, it is annoying.
I would support an e-sport system in D3, but I would never partake in it simply cause I wouldn't be able to enjoy it. I am definitely a casual gamer in the sense that I much prefer to take my time with games. I mean, when I hit up dungeons and shit, I make sure to loot every corpse, chest, and barrel I can. I also hate grinding for gear because, for me, it completely ruins the game for me and I don't necessarily care about getting my name on a ladder or showing how big my video-game wiener is. For me, it's definitely an odd mentality to want to be the best. I just find it hard to respect people who are super, super good at video games because it hardly amounts to anything. Why not aspire to be a great guitar player or an amazing tennis player? Things like that can actually improve your quality of life, but being the best gamer in a given community rarely has any benefit outside of that community. You're not going to get a record deal or sponsorship from being super pwn at Diablo 3.
I'm not saying that investing your time into D3 is a waste, I'm saying that trying to be the best out of a community that doesn't exist outside of that game is inherently draining.
I'm just saying that there are better things to do with your time. Fuck OpTic Predator.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
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To me, a competitive gamer is a person who cannot play a game unless it involves competing with others. I know a guy like this. This person literally doesn't enjoy ANY game, unless it is "winning" at something with a defined score and opponent to defeat. The term win does not include beating a game. I'm talking about the guy who only plays games with a singular goal of winning.
Opinion: These people completely miss the point of video games in the first place. They garner some misplaced e-peen pride from winning in-game, while completely failing or avoiding their lives. They crave this sense of self worth via a video game. If there is no such goal, the game is useless to them.
Because of this, they do not actually enjoy the game. They take no time to appreciate the game itself. They take pleasure in one thing and one thing only. Winning.
These people are not gamers by my personal standards. They're just people with unfulfilled dreams that they make up for, via winning in video games.
From personal experience: They are rude, with no sense of sportsmanship(aka don't say gg when they lose and boast and gloat and antagonize when they win), and very trolly.
However, I'm not saying that everyone who wants PVP is among this crowd. But they are certainly a part of the driving force behind it.
Edit: Also, there is NOTHING wrong with competing via video games. I'm not saying that. I certainly have my own fair share of e-peen when it comes to some games like Halo and Wc3(sc2? ehh not so much). And we all know that competing is incredibly fun. It's the driving force behind online gaming which is so crucial to our ever evolving community of gamers. However, if competing is your only enjoyment..well..you read the thread.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
i dont think they miss the point of a game, since a game is just a game, and you take what you want out of it, regardless of the designers intentions.
but those that start to neglect real life (whats this? :P) and become entrenched in the virtual world tend to become a bit unruly and rough, depending on the game. in the the end it just amounts to pride and entitlement. but this would only manifest in immature people with preexisting psychological troubles.
whether we like it or not, competition is a beautiful thing. its all about the metaphors, too bad gaming isnt respected enough for people to see them. i guess
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
But, my point is that when you do take out that e-sport aspect and certain individuals lose all interest in the game, it means they never understood or really enjoyed the game in the first place.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
most of these people come from diablo2, which ended up with an amazing pvp community that was responsible for the games longevity. and with such a large and faithful community to get shafted by D3, its completely understandable to me why they are disappointed.
just to recapitulate my point, a gamer takes what they want from a game. after all, we gamers do argue that games are an art form, and like any art, its subject to personal interpretation. to argue otherwise would be setting back the gaming strides we have championed since it garnered a wide media presence.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Keep in mind pride and e-peen is different.
Playing just to win is a flawed mentality since you can't win all of the time and you may as well be playing pong at that point, you're overlooking the game.
and, D2 pvp blew chunks. It was so bad I don't even consider it pvp.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
But to stay on subject...
I agree with your post. The Diablo franchise isn't competitive in nature, but rather cooperative PvE. I find it surprising how emotional people get about any 'lack of competition' in this game.
Without diving into a lecture-type post, I do want to add that this might be the new gaming community. EVERY game seems competitive, and the most popular games (in any genre) always have a competitive core. Again, as you stated, competitive games are awesome. Although it might be lost these days, there is a time and place for story, depth, and adventure without the motive of 'victory'. I'd like to think that's why Blizzard kept single-player mode an option.
If you want my cynical response...kids are brats, spoiled and they need discipline. KICKER: Or, maybe they don't, its just that kids play Mature rated games these days and the Mature gamers get irritated at their natural behavior.
Or what you guys said
DKR
I'm not saying every player with a primary interest in pvp is this way, but the competition pvp crowd generates more useless opinion-driven whine posts i've ever seen from any other sub-group.
@Proletaria- I concur
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
If you have ever played WoW and done PvE mainly, you know how frustrating this can be. The whole game, a MMORPG being balanced around PvP is annoying.
and here we encounter my second issue with esports or w/e u want to call it. it just doesnt have that sense of respect as any other sport. whether thats fair or not, is up to your opinions. example: kobe bryant is ultracompetative, and
sometimesmost times hes a dickhead. but at least we can say that kobe is a winner, a respected athlete, and a good role model when it comes to sports (we always point to his dedication to basketball); this same dedication doesnt translate to esports (or w/e) for some obvious and not-so-obvious reasons. without going to far, im sure you can think of most those reasons.and i find most people that bash on D2pvp wernt very good at it, or didnt understand the mechanics that well ive tried other online pvp games, but i still prefer d2 pvp to them.
edit: most of those hyperactive, rude kids are not the picture of a good pvp environment.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
They would like to think so at least.
Its just those damn kids! Which, unfortunately, does not relate to age.
What exactly are dedicated pvpers? Are they people who only play competitive games? If so, they fit into my definition of people who misunderstand what the game is and see only a means to increase e-peen.
Also, your argument for the dedicated pvpers really knowing the game doesn't hold much weight with me. I played wc3 very competitively and sc2 to a fair extent as well. In both games, you can ignore a very large portion of the game and compete at an intense level without having any handicap at all. In said games, you need to know a lot of numbers, strategies and map layouts. None of that requires any real appreciation or smelling of the roses, if you will.
The people that I'm talking about are the ones who get these games with pvp aspects and completely skip the campaign content just so that they can go win.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
RPGs may have other game modes in which player can compete between one another, but generally, RPGs are story driven, long extensive experiences. They are all about smelling the roses, especially the Elder Scrolls series, IMO.
I'd say games nowadays are more about MORE MORE MORE NOW NOW NOW!!! Lets fight! I want to beat you! win!!!
The youth has grown up with Tigerblood in their systems and its all about winning. Unfortunately, they end up being trolls themselves.
As you said, Pvp or competition in general, is definitely a good thing and should be a part of all games. I just think a select group/demographic of people take that to an unnecessary level.
What I'm taking from your post is that a lot of people play to win, not to play to play. I too would like to see people 'slow down' and enjoy the experience a game brings....however you want to take that.
What I was trying to say earlier, was that the people complaining there is no competitive PvP in D3 are wrong IMO. Competition seems facilitated and encourage from what I've read/seen.
What do I know,
DKR
all because someone doesnt play for the story/lore doesnt make them immature and looking to increase e-peen or w/e the fck it is. some people are just idiots, others look to have fun by building good characters or learning new skills.
from the outside looking in, its hard to understand the appeal. i always questioned why someone can only make 1 character or play 1 class and become the best at it; i always grow bored and need to try something else.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
That doesn't mean at all I have "unfulfilled dreams" or that I can't achieve anything in real life, it's just my personality. This theory is plain dumb, and so is assuming everyone with a given opinion has 15 years old and want to show their e-peen to their friends or online.
I know the difference between having a good time casually, and having a good time competitively. It's one thing laughing from dying like an idiot while playing New Super Mario Bros Wii with more casual gaming friends and not blame them when we can't finish a stage, and it's a whole other thing playing a game like Heroes of Newerth, with a lot more competition in it, with us usually screaming at each other because we all want to win - and I love both activities.
Enjoying a game is different for everyone, stating what's the "correct way" to do it is plain bullshit. I personally love Terraria, but I know people who hate it because "the graphics suck", to each his own. I hated Shift 2 Unleashed even though it has very good graphics/sound.
Competitive PvP adds to the game, and doesn't detract anything from it. If people want a "casual" experience, they can play custom games, like I do with some of my friends at SC2 every now and then. If we want a more "competitive" approach, we go to ladder. What's the issue with D3 having both?
We all know the reason they don't want competitive PvP: they don't want to balance it, not even see people complaining on the forums. It's ok, I'm fine with it, but let's not jump to conclusions about "most people" because of a couple trolls.
Btw, yes I did read this:
I just don't like any sort of generalization.
I would support an e-sport system in D3, but I would never partake in it simply cause I wouldn't be able to enjoy it. I am definitely a casual gamer in the sense that I much prefer to take my time with games. I mean, when I hit up dungeons and shit, I make sure to loot every corpse, chest, and barrel I can. I also hate grinding for gear because, for me, it completely ruins the game for me and I don't necessarily care about getting my name on a ladder or showing how big my video-game wiener is. For me, it's definitely an odd mentality to want to be the best. I just find it hard to respect people who are super, super good at video games because it hardly amounts to anything. Why not aspire to be a great guitar player or an amazing tennis player? Things like that can actually improve your quality of life, but being the best gamer in a given community rarely has any benefit outside of that community. You're not going to get a record deal or sponsorship from being super pwn at Diablo 3.
I'm not saying that investing your time into D3 is a waste, I'm saying that trying to be the best out of a community that doesn't exist outside of that game is inherently draining.
I'm just saying that there are better things to do with your time. Fuck OpTic Predator.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence